Traditionalism and the Death Penalty

[Brennan_Doherty]

Another person who thinks they are equal to God by determining how long a person should have before they should repent.

With regard to the death penalty there are three types of people. Those who are flatly against it, those who are against it but accept it is allowed (that’s me) and those who seem to simply want vengeance and are intent on killing as many convicted of a capital offense as possible.

Or hey, thistle, here’s another option. How about those who want justice done in the moral realm, and a chance for the criminal to both repent and expiate his sins? See, there is another choice.

Playing God? As Pope Pius XII noted, it’s not that the State takes away the life of the criminal, but that the criminal himself gave up his own right to life by taking an innocent life.

Oh, by the way, which of your categories would you have put Pope Pius XII in? I can’t see him in the first or second so would he have been in the wanting vengeance and killing as many convicted of a capital offense as possible category?

God bless.

 

[thistle]

Or hey, thistle, here’s another option. How about those who want justice done in the moral realm, and a chance for the criminal to both repent and expiate his sins? See, there is another choice.

Playing God? As Pope Pius XII noted, it’s not that the State takes away the life of the criminal, but that the criminal himself gave up his own right to life by taking an innocent life.

Oh, by the way, which of your categories would you have put Pope Pius XII in? I can’t see him in the first or second so would he have been in the wanting vengeance and killing as many convicted of a capital offense as possible category?

God bless.

I’m curious why you and other death penalty proponents are in such a hurry and so passionate about getting such criminals killed instead of locked up for life without parole.
Why are you so intent on depriving a person of the chance to repent and be saved? God loves all of us and wants everyone to be saved (not just you, me and the other posters here!).

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

I’m curious why you and other death penalty proponents are in such a hurry and so passionate about getting such criminals killed instead of locked up for life without parole.
Why are you so intent on depriving a person of the chance to repent and be saved? God loves all of us and wants everyone to be saved (not just you, me and the other posters here!).

Who said anything about depriving the person the chance to repent and be saved? Again, knowing one is going to be executed would very probably cause them to think about their eternal destiny and there would still be plenty of time to repent and be saved.

It comes down to justice; when someone deliberately takes an innocent life they forfeit the right to life. So, executing murderers, especially ones who have committed particularly heinous crimes, is just and justice is needed for the sake of the social fabric of a society. I also think justice is owed to the victim’s family.

 

[NeedImprovement]

Certain grey areas exist where it remains difficult if not impossible to come up with definitive answers.

For example, while in certain situations (depending on a perp’s personal disposition) it’s possible that “… knowing one is going to be executed would very probably cause them to think about their eternal destiny and there would still be plenty of time to repent and be saved.” However being coerced or scared into repentance is usually described as acceptable, but imperfect contrition. It would be beneficial in this case for the perp to have time to try and make reparation. The death penalty might cut that particular time short…unless they died willingly and that willingness be considered a reparative act in itself,( which I would surmise to be very rare in the case of murderers).

Another question: What about rapists ? They haven’t “killed” their victims literally, but they have traumatized them and marked them for life. Should they also receive the death penalty ?

 

[Vivat_Jesus1]

Hi, thanks in advance for responses. I am in the final stages of discerning conversion to the Catholic Church from protestantism. On the whole, I am very traditional in my theology and liturgical views. As such, I find the Church’s apparent reversal on the death penalty, while not a problem of dogma, to be misguided and provoked by modern thought. Are there many traditionalist who hold this view? Furthermore, from a traditional perspective, what is the position of a lay person who disagrees with non-dogmatic moral teaching?

I’m a traditionalist and I agree with the death penalty…and, personally, I think it should not only be mandatory for murder but for other crimes as well such as rape, child molestation, armed robbery, drug trafficking, etc. Most other traditionalists agree with the death penalty, as did nearly everyone in the Church up until after Vatican II–not only laity, but popes, bishops, priests, saints and theologians, including the Church’s greatest theologian, St. Thomas Aquinas.

The Catholic Church has not reversed her teaching on the death penalty–but John Paul the Second was personally against it and decided to break with 2,000 years of Church teaching and tradition and promote HIS view on the death penalty as Church doctrine.

 

[Vivat_Jesus1]

When John Paul II promulgated the Catechism, he called it a “sure norm of faith”, not a “bunch of really interesting opinions.”

He also called it the “ripest fruit of Conciliar teaching.” Since Conciliar teaching means Vatican II teaching, and thus teaching that is tainted with modernist errors, informed Catholics should definitely avoid the “New Catechism.”

 

[Vivat_Jesus1]

I just want to add that it would seem that GOD Himself not only approves of the death penalty, but expressly commands it:

“For I will require the blood of your lives at the hand of every beast, and at the hand of man, at the hand of every man, and of his brother, will I require the life of man. Whosoever shall shed man’s blood, his blood shall be shed: for man was made to the image of God.” (Genesis 9:6)

St. Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, says:
“For princes are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? Do that which is good: and thou shalt have praise from the same. For he is God’s minister to thee, for good. But if thou do that which is evil, fear: for he beareth not the sword in vain. For he is God’s minister: an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evil.”

I’ll stick with what Almighty God says about the death penalty, as well as the Apostles, popes, doctors, and saints have said about it for the last 2,000 years, rather than trust the erroneous opinion of John Paul “the Great”.

 

[Tommy_Joe]

I just want to add that it would seem that GOD Himself not only approves of the death penalty, but expressly commands it:

“For I will require the blood of your lives at the hand of every beast, and at the hand of man, at the hand of every man, and of his brother, will I require the life of man. Whosoever shall shed man’s blood, his blood shall be shed: for man was made to the image of God.” (Genesis 9:6)

St. Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, says:
“For princes are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? Do that which is good: and thou shalt have praise from the same. For he is God’s minister to thee, for good. But if thou do that which is evil, fear: for he beareth not the sword in vain. For he is God’s minister: an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evil.”

I’ll stick with what Almighty God says about the death penalty, as well as the Apostles, popes, doctors, and saints have said about it for the last 2,000 years, rather than trust the erroneous opinion of John Paul “the Great”.

If I’m ever forced to cast a ballot for support or opposition of the death penalty, I’ll make my decision based on scripture,…and the passages I’ve found that support the killing another person are vague to say the least.

The verse that I’ve seen in opposition of the death penalty, (from God Himself), is not the least bit vague in any way shape or form is:
“Thou shalt not kill”. Period.

 

[Matt33]

If I’m ever forced to cast a ballot for support or opposition of the death penalty, I’ll make my decision based on scripture,…and the passages I’ve found that support the killing another person are vague to say the least.

The verse that I’ve seen in opposition of the death penalty, (from God Himself), is not the least bit vague in any way shape or form is:
“Thou shalt not kill”. Period.

Actually the closest translation to English is “You shall not murder”. A nuance to be sure but perhaps an improtant one.
There are different words for kill and murder in the Old Testament.
Also God punishes a lot of random behavior but even when Jesus suffered the death penalty He did not address that issue as the problem. Certainly He Got angrier about moneychanging and self rightousness than he did about government doing it’s civic job.

 

[Tommy_Joe]

“Thou shalt not kill” was quoted out of my Douay-Rheims which I was taught was the most accurate translation of the original text.

Is that not true?

 

[NeedImprovement]

Either “kill” or “murder”; what it means in its complete sense is:

Thou shalt not kill the body

Thou shalt not kill the soul

Thou shalt not kill the conscience

 

[Cuddy_Duck]

vatican.va/roman_curia/secretariat_state/documents/rc_seg-st_doc_20010621_death-penalty_en.html

DECLARATION OF THE HOLY SEE
TO THE FIRST WORLD CONGRESS
ON THE DEATH PENALTY

The Holy See has consistently sought the abolition of the death penalty and his Holiness Pope John Paul II has personally and indiscriminately appealed on numerous occasions in order that such sentences should be commuted to a lesser punishment, which may offer time and incentive for the reform of the guilty, hope to the innocent and safeguard the well-being of civil society itself and of those individuals who through no choice of theirs have become deeply involved in the fate of those condemmed to death.

The Pope had most earnestly hoped and prayed that a worldwide moratorium might have been among the spiritual and moral benefits of the Great Jubilee which he proclaimed for the Year Two Thousand, so that dawn of the Third Millennium would have been remembered forever as the pivotal moment in history when the community of nations finally recognised that it now possesses the means to defend itself without recourse to punishments which are “cruel and unnecessary”. This hope remains strong but it is unfulfilled, and yet there is encouragement in the growing awareness that “it is time to abolish the death penalty”.

It is surely more necessary than ever that the inalienable dignity of human life be universally respected and recognised for its immeasurable value. The Holy See has engaged itself in the pursuit of the abolition of capital punishment and an integral part of the defence of human life at every stage of its development and does so in defiance of any assertion of a culture of death.

Where the death penalty is a sign of desperation, civil society is invited to assert its belief in a justice that salvages hope from the ruin of the evils which stalk our world. The universal abolition of the death penalty would be a courageous reaffirmation of the belief that humankind can be successful in dealing with criminality and of our refusal to succumb to despair before such forces, and as such it would regenerate new hope in our very humanity.

Strasbourg, 21 June 2001.

so that is that

 

[una_fides]

The death penalty is a licit way to prevent dangerous criminals from committing more crimes- but given the advent of modern jailing systems it is now possible to detain criminals for life. As well, what also must be considered is the salvation of the criminal- if he is given a lifetime of prison it is more likely he will one day be saved in light of the fact he will have more opportunity (ie a longer life) for conversion

This statement seems logical on its face, but in reality, one is actually more likely to confess his sins and make amends with God if he is sentenced to death, knowing the penalty will be soon applied. Impending death makes offenders come to grips with reality and brings a speedy knowledge that they are about to meet their Maker at any moment and if there ever was a time to get right with Him, it would be right then and there. When postponed, the likelihood of conversion decreases due to a lack of urgency and perceived necessity. Knowledge that one will eventually die one day is far different from knowledge that one will die tomorrow. If you’ve ever heard the expression, “there’s no atheists in fox holes,” it’s because when faced with impending death, the soul is more apt to respond to grace as it is faced with the eternal reality at its doorstep.

 

[una_fides]

Actually the closest translation to English is “You shall not murder”. A nuance to be sure but perhaps an improtant one.
There are different words for kill and murder in the Old Testament.
Also God punishes a lot of random behavior but even when Jesus suffered the death penalty He did not address that issue as the problem. Certainly He Got angrier about moneychanging and self rightousness than he did about government doing it’s civic job.

The translation from the Latin Vulgate is as follows:
Ex. 20:13 Non occides.
Here are the possible definitions:
occido, occidere, occidi, occisus V [XXXAX]
kill, murder, slaughter, slay; cut/knock down; weary, be the death/ruin of;

It can be translated either “kill” or “murder.” The best way to settle the issue however is not based on attempted reading of sola Scriptura. We should first see what the Church has said throughout her history, and we can then compare it with what she is saying now. Ultimately, as has already been demonstrated in this thread, the death penalty is a matter where individuals can hold to different opinions and still be faithful Catholics and still receive Communion. However, abortion is not one of those issues. The difference is that abortion falls under the realm of moral absolutes, whereas, the death penalty ultimately rests upon personal conviction and opinion guided by the light of the whole of the Church’s Magisterium. In other words, in this present day when a large number of bishops have partially and in some cases completely abandoned Traditional Catholic dogma in favor or new “developed” understandings, at odds with the universal understandings from the past, one must exercise extreme prudence and wisdom and must be first grounded in Traditional Catholic dogma before he face the onslaught from modernists, who wish to revise the Church into a liberal universalist church, where all religions are equal and everyone’s got a ticket to heaven.

 

[palmas85]

There is certainly no guarantee anyone will convert or if already a Christian repent and confess but in jail they still have the opportunity to do so. Its not up to you or anyone to say they should have repented by X number of years and if they have not done it by then that’s too bad for them.

You seem to be of the opinion that unless someone is given life in prison they will not have the chance to repent. I have no earthly idea where you came up with that one. That has to be one of the biggest stretches I have ever heard. And sadly a very very naive view.

The problem with life in prison is that it generally does not rehabilitate, it only succeeds in making the convicted more and more bitter towards those he feels wronged him. Very few criminals truly repent of their crimes, very few indeed Thistle. I know that sounds hard, but I learned that lesson in over 30 hard years of police work. I saw lengthy prison sentences do nothing more than create virtually soulless beings who didn’t really care what happened to them or to anyone else. They would terrorize the prison population and staff as surely as they did those on the outside.

Example.One Federal Penitentiary, Marion Illinois. In the Federal System of the United States the death penalty was not allowed… A convicted murderer and bank robber took offense at one of the correctional officers and decided to kill him. This was after he had already killed two other men, both inmates, while in Federal Custody. While in maximum security lock down , he made arrangements with other members of the Aryan Brotherhood, a violent prison gang, made up in large part of convicted murderers, robbers, kidnappers, rapists and drug dealers serving lengthy prison sentences, to assist him in killing the guard.

One morning in a perfectly timed assault, during shower time, he succeeded, stabbing the guard over sixty times… Fearing what would happen if they locked down the entire institution after this event, things were allowed to continue as usual, with only the killer and some of the Brotherhood locked up in segregation.

Later the SAME day, a second inmate, a member of the Brotherhood, and also a convicted murderer, both in and out of prison, and bank robber, virtually duplicated the earlier assault and killed a second guard, bragging afterwards that he had plenty more bodies to collect and that no one was going to get ahead of him in the body count.

Had the death penalty been imposed on these men for their earlier murders, perhaps the murders of these two correctional officers might have been avoided. Maybe not, but maybe.

We do know for certain that the violent tendencies of these men were more than likely exacerbated by the lengthy terms they were sentenced to and the knowledge that nothing they did could increase their sentences, as they were never getting out anyway.

Example Two: Federal Penitentiary Leavenworth, Kansas a convicted murderer and rapist serving a life sentence, became aggravated at the staff psychologist who was treating him. He decided to rape her. He went to the Office but she wasn’t there but another staff member, unknown to the man was. Seeing an opportune moment, he raped her, and then decided to strangle her. Unable to strangle her, he got a knife and decided to cut her throat. Unable to get the knife in he took a mop wringer handle and beat it into her neck. He then sliced her from ear to ear, then went back to his cell and apparently sexually gratified himself. When caught he said that he really didn’t plan to kill her but he figured why not. He couldn’t receive a stiffer sentence so in effect he was immune from punishment.

These type of events are not uncommon Thistle, and are in part a byproduct of warehousing these extremely violent individuals for lengthy terms of incarceration with little or no hope for parole and no fear of ever receiving worse punishment It has been pretty much shown that those on Death Row do not engage in these activities in any where near the numbers of those who are serving life or extremely lengthy terms of imprisonment. I have several friends who worked death row in two California State Prisons and they reported that the men whose appeals were done and who knew they were going to die were by and large better behaved, more reflective. more subdued. much more remorseful and much more likely to have a religious experience and or conversion than those serving life.

Predators prey upon those they can and when they can. Almost all violent criminals are predators, Thistle. Thats the real world…

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

You seem to be of the opinion that unless someone is given life in prison they will not have the chance to repent. I have no earthly idea where you came up with that one. That has to be one of the biggest stretches I have ever heard. And sadly a very very naive view.

The problem with life in prison is that it generally does not rehabilitate, it only succeeds in making the convicted more and more bitter towards those he feels wronged him. Very few criminals truly repent of their crimes, very few indeed Thistle. I know that sounds hard, but I learned that lesson in over 30 hard years of police work. I saw lengthy prison sentences do nothing more than create virtually soulless beings who didn’t really care what happened to them or to anyone else. They would terrorize the prison population and staff as surely as they did those on the outside.

Example.One Federal Penitentiary, Marion Illinois. In the Federal System of the United States the death penalty was not allowed… A convicted murderer and bank robber took offense at one of the correctional officers and decided to kill him. This was after he had already killed two other men, both inmates, while in Federal Custody. While in maximum security lock down , he made arrangements with other members of the Aryan Brotherhood, a violent prison gang, made up in large part of convicted murderers, robbers, kidnappers, rapists and drug dealers serving lengthy prison sentences, to assist him in killing the guard.

One morning in a perfectly timed assault, during shower time, he succeeded, stabbing the guard over sixty times… Fearing what would happen if they locked down the entire institution after this event, things were allowed to continue as usual, with only the killer and some of the Brotherhood locked up in segregation.

Later the SAME day, a second inmate, a member of the Brotherhood, and also a convicted murderer, both in and out of prison, and bank robber, virtually duplicated the earlier assault and killed a second guard, bragging afterwards that he had plenty more bodies to collect and that no one was going to get ahead of him in the body count.

Had the death penalty been imposed on these men for their earlier murders, perhaps the murders of these two correctional officers might have been avoided. Maybe not, but maybe.

We do know for certain that the violent tendencies of these men were more than likely exacerbated by the lengthy terms they were sentenced to and the knowledge that nothing they did could increase their sentences, as they were never getting out anyway.

Example Two: Federal Penitentiary Leavenworth, Kansas a convicted murderer and rapist serving a life sentence, became aggravated at the staff psychologist who was treating him. He decided to rape her. He went to the Office but she wasn’t there but another staff member, unknown to the man was. Seeing an opportune moment, he raped her, and then decided to strangle her. Unable to strangle her, he got a knife and decided to cut her throat. Unable to get the knife in he took a mop wringer handle and beat it into her neck. He then sliced her from ear to ear, then went back to his cell and apparently sexually gratified himself. When caught he said that he really didn’t plan to kill her but he figured why not. He couldn’t receive a stiffer sentence so in effect he was immune from punishment.

These type of events are not uncommon Thistle, and are in part a byproduct of warehousing these extremely violent individuals for lengthy terms of incarceration with little or no hope for parole and no fear of ever receiving worse punishment It has been pretty much shown that those on Death Row do not engage in these activities in any where near the numbers of those who are serving life or extremely lengthy terms of imprisonment. I have several friends who worked death row in two California State Prisons and they reported that the men whose appeals were done and who knew they were going to die were by and large better behaved, more reflective. more subdued. much more remorseful and much more likely to have a religious experience and or conversion than those serving life.

Predators prey upon those they can and when they can. Almost all violent criminals are predators, Thistle. Thats the real world…

Excellent post Palmas85. It is quite illumanitive to hear from someone who actually knows the penal system and what goes on there better than most of us. And what you are saying makes a lot of sense. If someone is convicted to life with little or no possibility of parole (and no chance of a worse sentence) what you have described in your post should be of little surprise. I hope people listen to what you have said.

God bless.

 

[una_fides]

Why is it America seems to have this constant drive to kill people through execution.
The European countries have long abolished capital punishment and the level of murders and violent crimes has not risen because of that. There is no evidence that capital punishment serves as a deterrent.

If we are dealing in the realm of morality and moral arguments, Europe is not a good comparison by any means. Europe did away with religion long ago and as a result it has been left in a spiritually dark and debased state. In addition, too many variables are involved when dealing with crime, and its increases and decreases cannot be proven either way in regards to the death penalty’s deterrent effect. The way to prove a deterrent effect would be in the realm of psychology.

 

[Tommy_Joe]

You seem to be of the opinion that unless someone is given life in prison they will not have the chance to repent. I have no earthly idea where you came up with that one. That has to be one of the biggest stretches I have ever heard. And sadly a very very naive view.

The problem with life in prison is that it generally does not rehabilitate, it only succeeds in making the convicted more and more bitter towards those he feels wronged him. Very few criminals truly repent of their crimes, very few indeed Thistle. I know that sounds hard, but I learned that lesson in over 30 hard years of police work. I saw lengthy prison sentences do nothing more than create virtually soulless beings who didn’t really care what happened to them or to anyone else. They would terrorize the prison population and staff as surely as they did those on the outside.

Example.One Federal Penitentiary, Marion Illinois. In the Federal System of the United States the death penalty was not allowed… A convicted murderer and bank robber took offense at one of the correctional officers and decided to kill him. This was after he had already killed two other men, both inmates, while in Federal Custody. While in maximum security lock down , he made arrangements with other members of the Aryan Brotherhood, a violent prison gang, made up in large part of convicted murderers, robbers, kidnappers, rapists and drug dealers serving lengthy prison sentences, to assist him in killing the guard.

One morning in a perfectly timed assault, during shower time, he succeeded, stabbing the guard over sixty times… Fearing what would happen if they locked down the entire institution after this event, things were allowed to continue as usual, with only the killer and some of the Brotherhood locked up in segregation.

Later the SAME day, a second inmate, a member of the Brotherhood, and also a convicted murderer, both in and out of prison, and bank robber, virtually duplicated the earlier assault and killed a second guard, bragging afterwards that he had plenty more bodies to collect and that no one was going to get ahead of him in the body count.

Had the death penalty been imposed on these men for their earlier murders, perhaps the murders of these two correctional officers might have been avoided. Maybe not, but maybe.

We do know for certain that the violent tendencies of these men were more than likely exacerbated by the lengthy terms they were sentenced to and the knowledge that nothing they did could increase their sentences, as they were never getting out anyway.

Example Two: Federal Penitentiary Leavenworth, Kansas a convicted murderer and rapist serving a life sentence, became aggravated at the staff psychologist who was treating him. He decided to rape her. He went to the Office but she wasn’t there but another staff member, unknown to the man was. Seeing an opportune moment, he raped her, and then decided to strangle her. Unable to strangle her, he got a knife and decided to cut her throat. Unable to get the knife in he took a mop wringer handle and beat it into her neck. He then sliced her from ear to ear, then went back to his cell and apparently sexually gratified himself. When caught he said that he really didn’t plan to kill her but he figured why not. He couldn’t receive a stiffer sentence so in effect he was immune from punishment.

These type of events are not uncommon Thistle, and are in part a byproduct of warehousing these extremely violent individuals for lengthy terms of incarceration with little or no hope for parole and no fear of ever receiving worse punishment It has been pretty much shown that those on Death Row do not engage in these activities in any where near the numbers of those who are serving life or extremely lengthy terms of imprisonment. I have several friends who worked death row in two California State Prisons and they reported that the men whose appeals were done and who knew they were going to die were by and large better behaved, more reflective. more subdued. much more remorseful and much more likely to have a religious experience and or conversion than those serving life.

Predators prey upon those they can and when they can. Almost all violent criminals are predators, Thistle. Thats the real world…

There is no reason for these tragic crimes to have ever taken place within the walls of a federal pen. None.

 

[SacredHeartFan]

Many traditional Catholics support the death penalty. Don’t worry.

The Ordinary Magisterium has always taught that the death penalty was just and good.

It Pope John Paul II 's opinion that the death penalty should not be used. Pope John Paul II and the new Catechism never said that the death penalty is morally evil or wrong. They just said it shouldn’t be used.

Any Catholic is free to disagree with the opinions of Pope John Paul II and modern Churchmen. The tradituional Church teaching on the goodness of the death penalty has been clear for centuries.

The modern liberal Churchmen have no authority to overturn what has been the constant fixed teaching of the Church.

There is much confusion because many Catholics believe that the opposition to the death penalty is official teaching when it is really just opinion.

Don’t pay attention to the USCCB because they are misguided and the Church in America has become a Modernist wasteland.

Come on home because Catholicism is the greatest gift any man can recieve. It is so much joy and holding the true faith helps one put up with the liberalism that has hurt so many people.

Finally someone sees my point!!!:extrahappy: But we do need to pay attention to our bishops even if they are a modernist wasteland.

 

[NeedImprovement]

…
Don’t pay attention to the USCCB because they are misguided and the Church in America has become a Modernist wasteland…

Finally someone sees my point!!!:extrahappy: But we do need to pay attention to our bishops even if they are a modernist wasteland.

At least you guys have a president who is against abortion…You want modernist wasteland ?..you want moral ambiguity?..you want kings and queens of gibberish ?..It’s all here waiting for you.

I truly doubt that any country has gone more morally backwards while trying to advance forwards. Political correctness would be a prime example:

If we speak out against gay marriage, it’s called hate- not freedom of speech (bet you didn’t know it could be a crime to be heterosexual huh?).

If we speak out against abortion we’re branded “intolerants”. Once when I spoke my mind about abortion to an extremely well educated Anglican minister, she told me: " You’re not allowed to say that - you’re not a woman." (Using that logic 95% of us posting right here wouldn’t be permitted to discuss the death penalty).