Traditionalism and the Death Penalty

[Matt33]

The translation from the Latin Vulgate is as follows:
Ex. 20:13 Non occides.
Here are the possible definitions:
occido, occidere, occidi, occisus V [XXXAX]
kill, murder, slaughter, slay; cut/knock down; weary, be the death/ruin of;

It can be translated either “kill” or “murder.” The best way to settle the issue however is not based on attempted reading of sola Scriptura. We should first see what the Church has said throughout her history, and we can then compare it with what she is saying now. Ultimately, as has already been demonstrated in this thread, the death penalty is a matter where individuals can hold to different opinions and still be faithful Catholics and still receive Communion. However, abortion is not one of those issues. The difference is that abortion falls under the realm of moral absolutes, whereas, the death penalty ultimately rests upon personal conviction and opinion guided by the light of the whole of the Church’s Magisterium. In other words, in this present day when a large number of bishops have partially and in some cases completely abandoned Traditional Catholic dogma in favor or new “developed” understandings, at odds with the universal understandings from the past, one must exercise extreme prudence and wisdom and must be first grounded in Traditional Catholic dogma before he face the onslaught from modernists, who wish to revise the Church into a liberal universalist church, where all religions are equal and everyone’s got a ticket to heaven.

Interesting, I don’t think anyone here is arguing for Sola Scriptora on this issue it would be nice though to get an accurate translation from the Original Text. How do Jews, interpret it? I understand the Latin interpretation, but it wasn’t written in latin.
Just curious.

 

[Matt33]

At least you guys have a president who is against abortion…You want modernist wasteland ?..you want moral ambiguity?..you want kings and queens of gibberish ?..It’s all here waiting for you.

I truly doubt that any country has gone more morally backwards while trying to advance forwards. Political correctness would be a prime example:

If we speak out against gay marriage, it’s called hate- not freedom of speech (bet you didn’t know it could be a crime to be heterosexual huh?).

If we speak out against abortion we’re branded “intolerants”. Once when I spoke my mind about abortion to an extremely well educated Anglican minister, she told me: " You’re not allowed to say that - you’re not a woman." (Using that logic 95% of us posting right here wouldn’t be permitted to discuss the death penalty).

We’re on our way. Sadly.

 

[Matt33]

There is no reason for these tragic crimes to have ever taken place within the walls of a federal pen. None.

But they do. And they will. That is like saying there is no reason for tragic crimes to take place outside of a prison. Of course the statemsnt is true but reality is otherwise. In the time I have spent with inmates (not what you think) NOt only do I see plent of corruption but there is almost no way to stop it.
When you put a criminal mind in prison it does not cease being a criminal mind and you can only restrain and control so much.

 

[saint_rafael]

Finally someone sees my point!!!:extrahappy: But we do need to pay attention to our bishops even if they are a modernist wasteland.

We are supposed to pay attention and obey our local diocesan bishop.

The local bishop is the one with canonical authority.

The USCCB has zero canonical authority when it comes to U.S. Catholics.
Their only authority is approving liturgical books, and even that is with the permission of Rome.

 

[saint_rafael]

At least you guys have a president who is against abortion…You want modernist wasteland ?..you want moral ambiguity?..you want kings and queens of gibberish ?..It’s all here waiting for you.

I truly doubt that any country has gone more morally backwards while trying to advance forwards. Political correctness would be a prime example:

If we speak out against gay marriage, it’s called hate- not freedom of speech (bet you didn’t know it could be a crime to be heterosexual huh?).

If we speak out against abortion we’re branded “intolerants”. Once when I spoke my mind about abortion to an extremely well educated Anglican minister, she told me: " You’re not allowed to say that - you’re not a woman." (Using that logic 95% of us posting right here wouldn’t be permitted to discuss the death penalty).

God help the Church in Canada, which is being persecuted. You have it tough in what has become a godless socialist big brother nightmare.

Your bishops are in worse shape than ours.
Things have been getting worse ever since their infamous Winnipeg Statement.

Here in the U.S. we were moving everyday in the direction of our neighbors in the north. Everyone wants to be on the same page so the North American Union can run smoothly.

 

[saint_rafael]

Interesting, I don’t think anyone here is arguing for Sola Scriptora on this issue it would be nice though to get an accurate translation from the Original Text. How do Jews, interpret it? I understand the Latin interpretation, but it wasn’t written in latin.
Just curious.

The fifth commandment certainly did not mean we could never kill anyone. Israel had the fifth commandment and the death penalty at the same time. There is no contradiction because we are commanded never to take innocent life.
We can kill guilty life in punishment, war, and self defense.

The same Moses who gave them the fifth commandment from God on the tablets was the same Moses who administered the death penalty and stoned those guilty of the crime of adultery.

 

[NeedImprovement]

God help the Church in Canada,…Things have been getting worse ever since their infamous Winnipeg Statement…
.

You’re right on the money with that one brother Azariah.

Actually we do have some very good Bishops too - ones who speak out against the aforementioned subjects and who don’t back away from threats (including those from the media and civil authorities), but that Winnipeg statement remains a real scholar’s lesson in prevarication and a wound to the Church here.

If there were a bright spot, a point of light, a sign for hope, I think it would have to be the springing up of Adoration chapels all around; as much as we might have had morally before abortion was legalized we didn’t have these. They’re springing up in Uncle Sam too aren’t they ?

 

[una_fides]

Interesting, I don’t think anyone here is arguing for Sola Scriptora on this issue it would be nice though to get an accurate translation from the Original Text. How do Jews, interpret it? I understand the Latin interpretation, but it wasn’t written in latin.
Just curious.

I do recall someone on here saying something to the effect that Scripture was enough for them on this issue, but what I was really emphasizing is that the best way for us to determine the issue is by looking at the historical understanding by the Church. Anyone can interpret Scripture to fit their predispositions, but 2000 years of Church Tradition is much more difficult to wiggle around.

Yeah, Hebrew’s one of those languages I haven’t a clue, and as you noted unfortunately the Vulgate doesn’t give us any more insights into how the text was originally intended. The Catechism of the Council of Trent actually sheds some light on the meaning of the word. Here’s the link: catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/catechism/TenCommandments-fifth.shtml

 

[thistle]

The fifth commandment certainly did not mean we could never kill anyone. Israel had the fifth commandment and the death penalty at the same time. There is no contradiction because we are commanded never to take innocent life.
We can kill guilty life in punishment, war, and self defense.

The same Moses who gave them the fifth commandment from God on the tablets was the same Moses who administered the death penalty and stoned those guilty of the crime of adultery.

Moses had no jails. Nowadays there is no excuse.

 

[NeedImprovement]

… Anyone can interpret Scripture to fit their predispositions, but 2000 years of Church Tradition is much more difficult to wiggle around…

Our Lord’s own actions recorded in the Gospels are also difficult to wiggle around; they leave a lot less room for misinterpretation than Sacred Scripture does in general.

For example, what if we took “…Whosoever shall shed man’s blood, his blood shall be shed…”, and tried to apply it all across the board ? Look at the Crucifixion. The imputation of the guilt for Christ’s Crucifixion rests on all of us. It is us, it is our sins which crucified our dear Lord Jesus.

Therefore we all deserve(d) the death penalty…but what did Jesus say about it, - “Wipe ‘em all out!!”, or “ Father forgive them…?”

Jesus told Philip, “Whoever has seen me has seen the Father [John 14:9].” So if one is really interested in finding out what God Almighty thinks or does or has to say, we simply need look at Jesus. He is our exemplar.

Adultery was another offence that required the death penalty. But when the people specifically came to Jesus with an adulteress in their custody to ask Him to approve the killing of her He answered, “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone John 8:7].” (I always wondered why they were never able to capture the man who was commiting adultery with the woman also )

That is the Divine ideal…plain and simple. I believe the big problem seems to lie is in trying to apply the Divine ideal in today’s exceedingly imperfect world.

Jesus seemed to indicate obedience to civil authorities; he paid the temple tax [Matt 17:24-27], and when the Roman soldiers came to ask John the Baptist what they were to do [Luke 3:14], John didn’t say, “Stop what you’re doing and wear flowers in your hair.” He said, “Don’t bully anyone. Denounce no one falsely. Be content with your pay.”

Although the “be content with your pay” part would be a lot easier for some of us if we didn’t have to pay our taxes (the way Jesus did), you get the general idea: Civil authority is necessary in our imperfect world to maintain order. Without it anarchy would reign and with anarchy the type of people that palmas85 spoke of in post #75 would also reign (btw @ palmas85, that really was an excellent post, and so well written that I hardly had to read it …it actually seemed to read itself to me). We appear to be living a genre of spiritual anarchy in our day.

Although the examples given in post #75 were within the penal system, as palmas85 said - they point to problems outside the system too. Society is working with damaged tools; our prisons are overcrowded, our penal system is flawed and our justice system is flawed. If they weren’t flawed, words like “repeat offender” wouldn’t exist. When someone mentions the word lawyer, what’s your first reaction ?…One of trust ? I wonder if dear St. Thomas Moore is turning in his grave. So this is the damaged world in which we have to try and apply the Divine ideal…it would seem a compromise at best.

Although there is probably not going to be any unanimous opinion by the time the thread runs out, I can say I’ve already learned a lot from everyone’s posts on this thread. You guys are great!

(time to go do a little “damage control” and pray a few decades of the Rosary)

 

[palmas85]

Moses had no jails. Nowadays there is no excuse.

There have always been jails Thistle. You are really reaching no aren’t you? Please read my earlier post and comment. I would love to hear something from you about it.

 

[una_fides]

Moses had no jails. Nowadays there is no excuse.

In all fairness, you might want to clarify or rethink that statement in light of the following passage from the inerrant Word of God:

Numbers 15:32-36: And it came to pass, when the children of Israel were in the wilderness, and had found a man gathering sticks on the sabbath day. They brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole multitude. And they put him into prison not knowing what they should do with him. And the Lord said to Moses: Let that man die, let all the multitude stone him without the camp. And when they had brought him out, they stoned him, and he died as the Lord had commanded.

 

[palmas85]

There is no reason for these tragic crimes to have ever taken place within the walls of a federal pen. None.

Sure there is:thumbsup: , These individuals are predators. . Predators prey upon the weak, the vulnerable and the available, both in and out of incarceration… Locking these type of people up for long periods of time with the knowledge that no matter what they do they are safe from execution merely opens the door for them to continue in their activities as often as they are able to do so. Why would they stop? Short of permanent solitary confinement with total lockdown and no human contact at all, there is really no way to stop these activities except by judicious use of the death penalty.

The Quakers tried the first at eastern Prison. It didn’t work at all. Most of the inmates went mad in a very short time.

The death penalty if nothing else at least keeps the predators from assaulting, raping and killing those around them.

I don’t advocate using the death penalty as a catch all, but in the case of violent sociopaths who have no regard for human life, I find it fitting, just and totally acceptable.

 

[thistle]

There have always been jails Thistle. You are really reaching no aren’t you? Please read my earlier post and comment. I would love to hear something from you about it.

Moses and the people were wandering in the wilderness. Prisons were simply tents with guards.
There is simply no reason for executions nowadays. It is not sufficient for anyone to say the inmate might kill someone in prison.

When the Church says that executions should be so rare as to be almost non-existent how does that fit in with death penalty proponents wanting to execute as many people (convicted of capital offenses) as possible and even wanting to extend this penalty to rapists and other heinous crimes.

 

[palmas85]

Moses and the people were wandering in the wilderness. Prisons were simply tents with guards.
There is no reason for executions nowadays.

Then how to deal with the individuals I named in my earlier post which you seem to be steadfastly ignoring? If you would like I’ll send you the names of the killers and where they are incarcerated along with an updated body count, because they haven’t stopped.

Maybe you could pay them a visit, spend some time with them, get to know them as it were.

 

[Genesis315]

The teaching on the death penalty is similar to that on war–the state can take life for certain purposes given certain circumstances. That being said, it is the general opinion of recent Pontiffs as well as almost the entire college of bishops that those circumstances are generally not present any more.

This is similar to Pope Pius XII’s comments concerning war calling it out of date saying, “the idea of war as an apt and proportionate means of solving international conflicts is now out of date.” (1944 Christmas message, 63)

 

[NeedImprovement]

…Why would they stop? Short of permanent solitary confinement with total lockdown and no human contact at all, there is really no way to stop these activities except by judicious use of the death penalty.

The Quakers tried the first at eastern Prison. It didn’t work at all. Most of the inmates went mad in a very short time…

.

That would coincide with what mental health professionals tell us -that we need contact with a minimum of 3 people a day to maintain sanity, but some of the criminals described in post # 75 seemed to be well beyond the point of sanity already…judging by their acts at least.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

Moses and the people were wandering in the wilderness. Prisons were simply tents with guards.
There is simply no reason for executions nowadays. It is not sufficient for anyone to say the inmate might kill someone in prison.

When the Church says that executions should be so rare as to be almost non-existent how does that fit in with death penalty proponents wanting to execute as many people (convicted of capital offenses) as possible and even wanting to extend this penalty to rapists and other heinous crimes.

Even Cardinal Ratzinger has said that faithful Catholics can have different views on the application of the death penalty, as it is not a matter of dogma like abortion:

“Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. …There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.”

priestsforlife.org/elections/ratzingerletter.htm

Cardinal Avery Dulles, in an article on the death penalty, called the judgment of the Pope on the issue “prudential.”

leaderu.com/ftissues/ft0104/articles/dulles.html

 

[NeedImprovement]

@ palmas85 : In all your experience had you ever heard mention of any other “model” of penitentiary proposed …say like a reduced contact facility rather than total solitary facility, or anything different from the present system.

I would guess that if there was, it may have been refused due to cost.

I wonder **why **our prisons are overcrowded…?

 

[una_fides]

From our modern standards, that last Scripture post seems a bit harsh doesn’t it. Nevertheless, we must always keep in mind that God’s ways are so far above ours and his holiness exceeds our fallen and debased understanding of justice. The point is that God is infinitely just in demanding our holiness. Everyone is going to die; the question is simply when. God gave us our lives and holds each of our lives in the palm of his hand. If we commit even one mortal sin, we are eternally cutting ourselves off from Him. How much more do we deserve the death of our human lives when we break God’s divine law. The problem is that we do not see sin in the same way God does. Sin is so repugnant to God and contrary to his nature that he actually became man and died so that we could be forgiven and be holy as he is holy.