@ Gregory I: Sorry, friend, but we totally are a Church of the Spirit, and not of “stodgy old disciplinarians, the church of intellectual learning” We are not an intellectual organization. That totally 100% conflicts with Scripture and the teaching of Magisterium.
Many founding figures did not receive the laying on of hands from Protestant ministers, as far as I know. Most had an experience at a retreat in Pennsylvania. But do you think God limits Himself only to Catholics? God help us if He did! I don’t think He even limits Himself to Christians! Yes, we have the fullness of revealed truth, we are free from error, we are the Church founded and led by Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit. But I sincerely believe that God is working outside the Catholic Church as well.
The Church is made up of Her members. If Her members need renewal - so does She. And Her members need renewal. Absolutely.
@ beng: I found a number of things that Fr. William Most was confusing. First, the difference between spiritual extraordinary graces and consolations, and the charismatic gifts. They are separate. Scripture tells us to seek these charismatic gifts (read Corinthians), since the manifestation of the Spirit is given to everyone. Paul wishes everyone to speak in tongues, and to strive eagerly to prophesy. LG does not say we should not seek these, only that they do not be rashly demanded. Second, he misunderstands the distinctions St. Paul is making between different sorts of tongues. In the early church, there were some members that would preach a message to the congregation in tongues, and someone would interpret. That’s a specific role that someone would have in the Body, as he’s talking about roles. Obviously interpretation is needed here. Third, I’ve really seen charismatics leading the way in Marian devotion. He has many valid objections, all the same.
I’ve seen many priests defend the work, and I know it’s of great controversy. But here’s St. John Chrysostom:
Ask accordingly not to have the gift of tongues only, but also of interpretation, that thou
mayest become useful unto all, and not shut up thy gift in thyself alone. “For if I pray in
a tongue,” saith he, “my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.” Seest thou
how by degrees bringing his argument to a point, he signifies that not to others only is
such an one useless, but also to himself; if at least “his understanding is unfruitful?” For
if a man should speak only in the Persian, or any other foreign tongue, and not
understand what he saith, then of course to himself also will he be thenceforth a
barbarian, not to another only, from not knowing the meaning of the sound. For there
were of old many who had also a gift of prayer, together with a tongue; and they prayed,
and the tongue spake, praying either in the Persian or Latin language, but their
understanding knew not what was spoken. Wherefore also he said, “I’ll pray in a tongue,
my spirit prayeth,” i.e., the gift which is given me and which moves my tongue, “but my
understanding is unfruitful.”
What then may that be which is best in itself, and doth good? And how ought one
to act, or what request of God? To pray, “both with the spirit,” i.e., the gift, and “with
the understanding.” Wherefore also he said, “I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray
with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the
understanding also.” He signifieth the same thing here also, that both the tongue may
speak, and the understanding may not be ignorant of the things spoken.
And St. Justin Martyr:
“If you want proof that the Spirit of God, who was with your people and left you to come to us, come into our assemblies and there you will see Him cast out demons, heal the sick, and hear Him speak in tongues and prophesy.” - Justin Martyr
@ John_Aurelius: please keep it polite. There may indeed be more problems with traditionalists than with charismatics, but that is no cause to be uncharitable.
@ SolemnSheep: Yeah, the Church is not saying you must support the Charismatic Renewal. But it is saying you must support the “charismatic dimension” of the Church.
There is room for legitimate variety in the spirituality of Catholics. Charismatics may have their own spirituality and way of doing things, and this diversity is complimentary in the Body of Christ. We’re not all supposed to be hands, or eyes, or mouths, etc. But, there are I think four aspects of spirituality that really should be the essence of everyone’s spiritual life: 1. Charismatic/Evangelistic (in reliance on the Holy Spirit, Pentecost, and the use of the gifts, and to spread the Gospel), 2. Contemplative, 3. Marian, 4. Eucharistic (and generally sacramental).
True worshippers of Christ worship in Spirit and in Truth.
