Traditionalist and Charismatic

  • Thread starter Thread starter henrikhank
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
@ InquisitorMax:

Yes, that’s another form of the gift in tongues. You see both in Scripture. Such as in Corinthians 14, when Paul says his spirit is at prayer, but his understanding is not fruitful - i.e. he doesn’t understand what he’s saying. It’s a language - but it’s not given an instruction, rather it is a prayer.

You seem to misunderstand prophecy. Prophecy is usually not telling the future - read the Old Testament prophecies. They are usually God just speaking through the mouth of a prophet, and giving a message to His people. Your comparison to magicians doesn’t stand - that’s not what the CCR is.

Actually, Pentecostalism started from the prayers of Pope Leo XIII.
 
Pax et bonum!
What is the relationship between Traditionalism and Charismatic Renewal-ism?
Clearly the Charismatic Renewal is in and for the Church, not alongside the Church. Traditionalism and Charismatic go hand in hand, and to be specific, in the role of parish renewal.

Yves Cardinal Congar said, “The Charismatic Renewal is a grace for the Church.” We assure those in the Charismatic Renewal of the support they enjoy from the bishops of the United States, and we encourage them in their efforts to renew the life of the Church.

Perhaps a few words about the charisms are in order. Vatican II echoes St. Paul in stating:

It is not only through the sacraments and Church ministries that the same Holy Spirit sanctifies and leads the people of God. He distributes special graces among the faithful of every rank…“The manifestation of the Spirit is given to everyone for profit.” [1 Cor 12:7] These charismatic gifts, whether they be the most outstanding or the more simple and widely diffused, are to be received with thanksgiving and consolation, for they are exceedingly suitable and useful for the needs of the Church." [Lumen Gentium. 12]

shalom
 
Actually, Pentecostalism started from the prayers of Pope Leo XIII.
Now we may be getting somewhere. I have read all 39 pages of this thread.
My opinion, for what it’s worth, Tradionalists seem to be more focused on the spiritual.Yet charasmatics seem focused on the carnal. Charasmaticism is based on the satisfaction and pleasure of the senses.

And now to have Pope Leo XIII credited with this movement may be saying more than you realize. Can you provide proof from Pope Leo XIII himself the he not only started, but intended to start pentecostalism? Nothing implied nor inferred. Straight forward proof that he started or intened to start this movement.

I think you may be saying more than you realize because this is the Holy Father who heard satan threaten to destroy the Church. He authored the Prayer to St. Michael for this very reason.

Noone knows the exact date this 100 years began so it’s ending cannot be precisely determined. But what is an interesting observation is that the 100 years is no doubt closing in and charasmatic renewal has made the Church into something Pope Leo XIII would not recognize as the Church.

Coincidence? Maybe. But I’d love to see the unquestionable evidence that Pope Leo XIII was responsible for pentecostalism.
 
And that’s the nub of the matter. We disagree as to how those gifts manifest and to how ‘open’ we must be to them, or what that even means.
I dont’ think we do disagree on how they manifest, Inquisitor. None of the Catholic Charismatics here support or endorse any of the abuses you have ascribed to us all. 🤷

Why anyone would disagree about “how open” we must be to the HS, and the gifts He sealed in us at baptism is a mystery to me. :confused:

1 Cor 14:1
1 Make love your aim, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts,

Luke 11:12-13
13 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"

Why should any of us be suspicious or avoidant of God’s gifts?
Code:
   I think I'd like to be like a great Saint, like St. Padre Pio. He had gifts, all right. People spoke to him in their mother tongue, which he couldn't possibly know, and he understood them. They had a conversation. This not like what I understand is exhibited at Charismatic meetings i.e. the famous babbling.
There are many varieties of tongues. Certainly babbling is not among them.

However, to assume something is “babbling” just because you don’t understand it seems a bit culturally prejudiced, does it not?

There was a movie on the other day where actors were speaking in Arabic. I was unable to keep up with the speed of the subtitles. It sounded like “babbling” to me, but I don’t think it was. 😉
Code:
'Being slain in the Spirit' or 'Swooning'; that's like what teens do a rock concerts. I'm sure its cathartic. Feels good, I bet. What on earth does it have to do with advancing in holiness? Nothing, I propose.
This phenomenon results from a person yielding to the Holy Spirit. Yielding to the Holy Spirit has everything to do with advancing in holiness. If you are afraid of it, then you need not participate.
The sense I got growing up was the Charismaticism was supposed to provide what the Church lacked. I don’t think it’s worked. The Catholic Church needs its Mount Athos, I think, to counter amateur efforts at mysticism.
I think this is a mistaken notion. The Church has never lacked anything.

Mt. Athos is part of the Church. So are all the other Holy Monasteries througout the world. If you think there are not people in them that pray in tongues, you are mistaken.

I agree, mysticism requires the discipline of contempletive prayer.
 
If we are not in a state of grace, our reception of those graces is very much diminished. This is what the Church teaches. Church teachings are geared for the salvation of souls.

The extraordinary gifts, on the other hand, such as tongues or prophesy, are not geared toward salvation, but rather the building up of the Church. The Church primarily exists for the salvation of souls. It does not exist to primarily build itself up. Do you see the difference?
No, Denise. You are creating a false dichotomy. There is no “difference” between the building up of the Church, and the salvation of souls. The purpose of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church is to bring us to heaven. This is the salvation of souls. She can best do that when she functions in all the fullness of the Holy Spirit.

Eph 2:19-22
19 So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; 22 **in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. **

We are built into His Church to be a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. This is not only for our own salvation, but to all the souls who have not yet been joined into her.
Priests are called upon to nurture that which is geared toward the salvation of their flock. Speaking in tongues and prophesy are not geared toward this purpose.
You are mistaken, Denise.

There is no other purpose for the charisms besides the strenthening of the believer, and the Church to which he is joined.

Jude 20-21
20 But you, beloved, build yourselves up on your most holy faith; pray in the Holy Spirit;

1 Cor 14:3-4
4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself,

There is no other reason to build ourselves up and be edified by the Holy Spirit than the salvation of our own souls, and that of others.
Code:
We can go round and round and keep saying the same things over and over... what purppose it will serve, though...?
Those reading the thread who are not willing to settle for a truncated version of the Gospel will benefit. 👍
 
I’m afraid it’s you who is being absurd here. The Apostles and St. Padre Pio could be understood by those who heard them. Therefore, it’s wasn’t gibberish.
Don’t be afaid, Inquisitor! It is not absurd. That is only one variety of tongues, though.

1 Cor 14:1-3
2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.

There is a variety of tongues in which the individual utters mysteries in the Spirit that no one understands but God.

1 Cor 14:1-3
2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.
An idea I’ve got from reading books on occultism and exorcism is this…
Perhaps reading of this kind is interfering with your openness to the Holy Spirit? Have you considered avoiding it?
Code:
 You think you're really getting somewhere, but a shadow has entered your life.
This is a very good description of what the occult will do. The main reason it should be avoided!
Code:
 My point is: Mystical phenomena can be easily produced, if human beings seek them.
Yes. All the more reason it is necessary to test the spirits.
I don’t know how, or if, Charismaticism is regulated. I could set up a Charismatic group tomorrow and, based on what I know, lead it down a lively route. Just like a charismatic preacher.
You are equating two things that do not belong together here. From my reading on this thread, the term “charismaticism” is being used to refer to fakery, being out of order, and chaos. These are not the proper elements of any prayer group for a Catholic, including a Charismatic one.

Why don’t we find out? Please start a prayer group in your parish, and let us know how it goes. 😉
Code:
The impression I'm getting is that it's emotion-based and too influenced by Pentecostalism.
Yes. It is clear that your impressions are coming from inside yourself, and not from the Teachings of the Church. I can verify that you have indeed testified to these attitudes coming from yourself. 👍
It got going in Catholicism after the iconoclasm of the 60’s. Modern Catholics don’t know their faith. They haven’t a clue about mysticism.
Any Catholic who knows their faith will be well educated about mysticism. Such “clues” will come from the writings of the doctors of the Church, such as St. Teresa and St. John of the Cross. Any Catholic who is not aware of these writers, and these aspects of the faith is suffering under a truncated gospel.
Code:
 I would say Catholicism is very literary. What, for example, would the average priest be able to suggest to someone who says "Father, I was buffeted by a demon last night, what should I do?"
This is a good question. What do you think? I know many that would recommend the Rosary. 👍

Our mama wears combat boots.
Into this void, modern Catholics are a lot like Protestants; they seek … something … and can be fed anything.
Yes. It would be well for more educated Catholics to teach the members of the One Body how to conduct spiritual warfare, and to know the mystical aspects of the faith, so that they will not be likely to stray away looking for these answers. Any authenticity in Protestant ecclesial communities came from the Catholic faith.
 
Now we may be getting somewhere. I have read all 39 pages of this thread.
My opinion, for what it’s worth, Tradionalists seem to be more focused on the spiritual.Yet charasmatics seem focused on the carnal.
Can you explain this? How are charismatics “focused on the carnal”?
Charasmaticism is based on the satisfaction and pleasure of the senses.
I have never heard this word used before I came to this thread, but given the definitions that are used here, I think I would have to agree. It is a good thing this is not what the charismatic experience is all about!
And now to have Pope Leo XIII credited with this movement may be saying more than you realize. Can you provide proof from Pope Leo XIII himself the he not only started, but intended to start pentecostalism? Nothing implied nor inferred. Straight forward proof that he started or intened to start this movement.
You are making incorrect inferences. The desire of the Holy Father to see the Church renewed and empowered by the Holy Spirit as it was in the New Testament does NOT equate to modern “pentecostalism”. Pentecostalism is an aberrant offshoot from the One Faith. The Holy Father was never wanting the gifts of the Holy Spirit to thrive in the Ohe, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church in a chaotic manner, or that separated from right doctrine and obedience to the Authority appointed by Christ.
I think you may be saying more than you realize because this is the Holy Father who heard satan threaten to destroy the Church. He authored the Prayer to St. Michael for this very reason.
This is exactly right. The gifts of Pentecost enable us to conduct spiritual warfare. 👍
But I’d love to see the unquestionable evidence that Pope Leo XIII was responsible for pentecostalism.
Since no one has claimed this except you, you are the most qualified to produce the evidence.
 
Can you explain this? How are charismatics “focused on the carnal”?.
The very next sentence explains it…

" Charasmaticism is based on the satisfaction and pleasure of the senses."
However, as I said, this is my opinion of the movement.

Regarding Pope Leo XIII…
Since no one has claimed this except you, you are the most qualified to produce the evidence.
Perhaps you should read post #575 (it was quoted in my response) This claim was made. It was what prompted me to give my opinion.
Here it is again…
Actually, Pentecostalism started from the prayers of Pope Leo XIII.
You are making incorrect inferences.
I made no inferences. Post #575 made the claim that "pentecostalism started from the prayers of Pope Leo XIII. All I did was ask for direct proof of this claim. And by direct proof I meant
proof from Pope Leo XIII himself the he not only started, but intended to start pentecostalism? Nothing implied nor inferred. Straight forward proof that he started or intened to start this movement.
 
The very next sentence explains it…

" Charasmaticism is based on the satisfaction and pleasure of the senses."
However, as I said, this is my opinion of the movement.
I gather from this that you have conflated the charismatic experience with this false practice that some here have called “charismaticism”?

I agree with you. The seeking of the satisfaction and pleasure of the senses is carnal, and has nothing to do with the Charismatic Gifts that the Holy Spirit has given to His Church. 👍

Neither is it to indulge the emotions, as has been pointed out also in this thread. Such pursuits do not lead to holiness.

Gal 5:16-17

16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, to prevent you from doing what you would.
Regarding Pope Leo XIII…

Perhaps you should read post #575 (it was quoted in my response) This claim was made. It was what prompted me to give my opinion.
Here it is again…
No, it was not. The rampant and disordered “pentecostalism” has nothing to do with Leo’s intention for the Church. It is like liturgical practice gone rogue.
I made no inferences. Post #575 made the claim that "pentecostalism started from the prayers of Pope Leo XIII. All I did was ask for direct proof of this claim. And by direct proof I meant
Pentecost started in the upper room. Leo prayed that the Church would again experience the fire of Pentecost. This does not equate to “charismaticism” as described on this thread. Livign a potent spirit filled life (walking by the Spirit and not fulfilling the desires of the flesh) is God’s desire for all his flock.
 
@ justtryin: What basis do you have for saying charismaticism is based on gratifying the senses, and is all about feelings? for me, being charismatic involves doing the will of the Holy Spirit, and using His gifts. This often does not involve gratifying my senses, and usually it is quite awkward. 😃

Now, I am not saying Pope Leo XIII started the Pentecostal movement. Rather, I am saying that it was started in response to his prayers. Look up Bl. Elena Guerra. She was a nun who started her own small religious order, who had the mission of writing to the Pope to inspire Him to increase devotion to the Holy Spirit. They exchanged many letters, and Pope Leo XIII did several things in response to her (she later inspired Bl. Pope John XXIII, especially for his convening prayer for Vatican II, asking for an increase of miracles as of a new Pentecost - which really I see the charismatic movement being a response to). One thing she asked was for Pope Leo XIII to pray the Veni Creator Spiritus on New Year’s Eve of 1900, on behalf of the whole Church. The next day, the Pentecostal movement began in Topeka, Kansas.

Ultimately, I think this is part of the plan of God. As much as I have many things against Pentecostals, I am also highly favorable towards their zeal, their evengelistic nature, and their devotion to the Holy Spirit, and I think God is using this right now for many things in His great plan.

We need an increased devotion to the Holy Spirit, a renewed sense of what Pentecost means for our lives. Anything that does this has my approval, even if it is not perfect and I may have many complaints against this.
 
And that’s the nub of the matter. We disagree as to how those gifts manifest and to how ‘open’ we must be to them, or what that even means.
I would recommend reading St. Bonaventure’s sermons on St. Francis of Assisi The Disciple and the Master. Bonaventure answers this question through the life of Francis of Assisi. He leads you to understand the importance of being open to the gifts of the Holy Spirit, how Francis was open to them without being too concerned as to what they were or how they would manifest themselves and how they actually transformed his life and those around him. Bonaventure drives home the point that one has to learn from someone like Francis that the best way to go is to take the scriptures to heart. From there, the Holy Spirit does the rest. He also points out how the Holy Spirit informed Francis of what came from God and what did not. Finally, Bonaventure points out that this is not only for Francis. It was simply a fact that Francis was the second Christian in history to become the perfect receptacle for the Holy Spirit, the first one being Our Lady. However, he insists that all are called to this openness to the Spirit and that the Spirit will do was he wills.
I think I’d like to be like a great Saint, like St. Padre Pio. He had gifts, all right. People spoke to him in their mother tongue, which he couldn’t possibly know, and he understood them. They had a conversation. This not like what I understand is exhibited at Charismatic meetings i.e. the famous babbling.
Actually, the friars reported that they often heard Pio pray making sounds that they said were unidentifiable. What made Pio a great saint was not what he did, but his fidelity to St. Francis. Francis wrote into our rule that the only way to true holiness was by unquestioning obedience and poverty, which translates into living the Catholic faith as he lived it. Pio was a faithful son who tried hard to live the Gospel the way that Francis did.
‘Being slain in the Spirit’ or ‘Swooning’; that’s like what teens do a rock concerts. I’m sure its cathartic. Feels good, I bet. What on earth does it have to do with advancing in holiness? Nothing, I propose.
Actually, history tells us that this happened a great many times to Catherine of Siena, Paschal Baylon, Teresa of Avila (who described the experience like an orgasm), and to Angela Foligno.

Those of us who were privileged to attend a small mass with Bl. John Paul II actually heard him groan while he listened to the scriptures during mass and when he said the words of consecration. His theologian, a Capuchin Franciscan Friar, who is also a theologian on Charismatic Spirituality, writes that those who lived in the Papal Apartments with Bl. John Paul reported that they would have to wait for him to come out of trances that lasted for hours while he knelt before the tabernacle.

What would be considered paranormal or mystical experiences are not the bread and butter of every human being, but they’re nothing to blow off either. There are many cases reported, not just today. We’re hearing more about, because we have better communication.

There certainly are many emotionally induced experiences, but it takes professional theologian whose area of expertise is either Spiritual Theology or Mystical Theology to tell the difference. There is a set of questions that one is trained to ask and a set of answers that one is trained to listen for. That was my major in postgraduate work. It’s a fascinating area of theology.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Code:
 @ justtryin: What basis do you have for saying charismaticism is based on gratifying the senses, and is all about feelings? for me, being charismatic involves doing the will of the Holy Spirit, and using His gifts. This often does not involve gratifying my senses, and usually it is quite awkward. :D
I think it is a mistake to try to equate what is referred to on this thread as “charismaticism” to anything related to charismatic catholicism. I think it is just a disparaging term made up by recalcitrant and avoidant persons who don’t want to accept the Teaching of the Church with regard to the charismatic gifts. In my reading of the thread, it seems to define exactly what was stated here, gratifying the senses, indulging emotions, and pursuing self aggrandizement rather than holiness. I suggest that we let this term represent the definition that was given it here, and not confuse it with the charismatic experience. Clearly they are two different things.
Now, I am not saying Pope Leo XIII started the Pentecostal movement.
I think it is also important to distinguish the Pentecostal experience from the “movement” with which it is associated. It seems that many equate “movement” only with the abuses that have occcurred.
 
MODERATOR WARNING

The rules of charity still apply, even to this thread. Everyone is to stop using labels such as “charismaticism”. This apostolate exists to present the Catholic faith and to support that which the Church supports. Those who participate in the Charismatic movement and those who choose not to do so are to be treated and spoken about with respect and charity.

As I always say, “You may disagree, but you may not label, judge or deliberately offend.”
 
There is a set of questions that one is trained to ask and a set of answers that one is trained to listen for. That was my major in postgraduate work. It’s a fascinating area of theology.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Can you direct me on some more info about these?

Thanks for your, as always, informative and charitable post.
 
Can you direct me on some more info about these?

Thanks for your, as always, informative and charitable post.
There is great book that we all start with called The Varieties of Religious Experience by William James. He approaches religious experience from the clinical perspective. What he does is setup a system to separate that which is mentally unstable from that which is rational. This is extremely important. One of the basic questions that one must ask when evaluating religious experience is “Does this make sense?” When a theologian or a trained spiritual director asks this question, he’s does not mean, “Do I understand it?” He doesn’t have to understand it. Most of Teresa of Avila’s spiritual director’s did not have a clue what God was communicating. We understand the message only in hindsight. Once her life ended, we look at the Gestalt and we can then see and say, “This is what God is saying about man and about himself.” However, when the person is alive and in your presence, you have to ascertain whether the experience is pathological or truly religious.

You see, no matter how obscure God’s messages may be, they are always rational. Never confuse obscure with irrational. As the old saying goes, “God writes straight in crooked lines” or some such thing. We see this in scripture. God makes many statements and requests many things that leave the hearer perplexed. However, the hearer is not imagining it. Abraham didn’t have a clue why he had to sacrifice Isaac. Mary didn’t have a clue how she was to conceive a child while still a virgin. Peter didn’t have a clue why Jesus had to die. However, these people were perfectly rational. They would pass any psychological projective test, even though what they said was outside of human understanding: a God who orders you to kill your son; a conception without a biological father; and a savior who is going to die. You have to separate the pathology from the rational. That which is rational is not always within human understanding. We usually understand it after the fact. James grapples with these questions. His system is certainly very useful.

There is another great work called Spiritual Passages: The Psychology of Spiritual Development “for those who seek” by Benedict J. Groeschel. Father B does two things in his book. In the first half he walks you through psychological and spiritual development so that you can understand how the two go hand in hand. In the second part he walks you through the three ways of spiritual growth: purgation, illuminative and unitive. If you follow the questions that he asks and the answers to the questions, you come out with a pretty good set of questions that should be raised when looking at religious experience from the perspective of a spiritual guide and the answers that you’re looking for.

You have James, who delivers the questions and answers necessary to determine whether the experience is genuine or pathological. He does not try to do theology. He leaves that up to the theologian. All he tries to do is separate the healthy from the unhealthy. Then you have Father B who delivers questions and answers that help us understand when God is using human development and the human mind for his purposes.

The good thing about both of them is that neither goes into this occult stuff. They’re not concerned about that. I don’t really know if James even believed in that stuff. I know that Father B certainly understands it. But the purpose of good Spiritual Theology is not to delve into the occult, but to delve into the work of grace in the soul and God’s activity in human experience.

Those are just starters. One can go deeper and read the collected works of John of the Cross, especially the Dark Night and the Ascent of Mt. Carmel. John is going to walk you through God’s intimate activity within the soul. He does not formulate questions for you to ask. However, if you’re a strong student of philosophy, you can extrapolate the questions that he asked in order to write the answers.

Another great source is St. Teresa of Avila. There are two writings of hers that I always like to read and reread, Interior Castle and The Way of Perfection. What I truly like about the latter is that she give you a road map. When you’re doing spiritual direction, you can listen for certain key points and you can connect the dots, in a manner of speaking. You can say, “Aha, this goes in this part of the way of perfection,” or “Aha, this is not part of the way of perfection.”

Again, this is not something that I encourage anyone to try on themselves or their acquaintances. One has to be trained to do this. This takes several years of study and a lot of practice under very careful supervision.

Good spiritual directors come in one of two wrappings. There are some who have a natural gift for guiding souls, such as Francis de Sales and those who are scholars in the matter such as St. Ignatius of Loyola.
 
One of my favorite works by St. Ignatius, when I was in postgraduate school was A Pilgrim’s Journey. I found that by studying his spiritual journey I learned the difference between what man does and what God does. Using his own life, Ignatius shows you how to tell the difference. He is rather humorous at times. One often imagines Ignatian Spirituality to be very heady. It can be, but Ignatius himself was a man who approached the spiritual life with a sense of humor. He trips all over himself and he learns to laugh at himself. I believe that’s another quality of someone who is on the right spiritual track. I have yet to study a spiritual master who did not have a wonderful sense of humor and a great appreciation for irony.

Francis of Assisi loved the image of “God’s clown.” Teresa of Avila would make fun of God and actually tell him when she thought he was out of line. “It’s no wonder you have such few friends.” Francis de Sales and Jane de Chantal wrote very deep spiritual letters to each other and there is always some snarky little comment to rile the other one. Philip Neri did goofy things like putting a squirrel on his shoulder when he celebrated mass to avoid going into ecstasy. The squirrel didn’t quite do the trick, so he stopped. The other Oratiorians found him to be a pain in the neck, because he was always playing pranks on them and he would narrate his spiritual experiences with humor. It made him laugh that God would pick him of all people. Sometimes he stops short of saying, “God must be out of his mind,” or “I guess God couldn’t find anyone else.” This is one thing that we look for when we look at deeply spiritual people who have extraordinary religious experiences.

My three favorite modern mystics are St. Maximilian Kolbe, Bl. Mother Teresa and Bl. John Paul II. St. Max was often caught giggling during prayer. My favorite anecdote from Mother Teresa is when the sisters called her from Pakistan during a war. She tells them to get back to Calcutta and they ask if they can stay with the refugees. She says, “OK, you can stay, but don’t forget to call me when you’re dead,” and she hangs up the phone. After the election of Bl. John Paul there is this fancy dinner with the College of Cardinals. He gets up from the table and tells them to keep partying, he has a few people to visit. The Secretary of State tells him that he can’t go. Bl. John Paul looks at him and says, “Why not?” The other fellow explains the security measure, etc. Bl. John Paul says, “I had more freedom in Poland.”

When people travel along their spiritual journey without humor and without a smile, that’s not a good sign. That’s another thing to look for. Too much intensity is not good. Teresa of Avila always said, “God preserve me from sour faced saints.”

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
The website you posted is fill of bias and is quite uncharitable. The fellow had his mind made up going into the conference, which isn’t conducive to anything outside of writing an attack piece of a group who associates themselves with one that has no legitimate ministry within the Church.

I could go on and on about it, but the article really speaks for itself in the sense that it is a bitter fueled rage against a University with is universally acclaimed for their Orthodoxy, looked favorably upon by Rome, and closely follows Franciscan spirituality.

I will touch on two key points though, right at the start:

“Pope Pius X, Pius XI, Pius XII, Padre Pio, Saint Therese of Lisieux, Saint Dominic Savio or any other canonized saint would recognize or accept as Catholic.”

BLESSED John Paul II had ZERO issues with this, so right here in the first part of the article the writer is already off. Of special note; Franciscans and Dominicans have both been involved in elements of the Charismatic before the renewal took place, including Dominic himself. I mention this because there’s;
  1. Been a lot of Dominicans.
  2. Pope Pius X was a Secular Franciscan, he would have had no problems with Steubinville.
The Steubenville worship band churned out Blessed Be Your Name by Protestant Beth Redman, Lord I Give You My Heart by Protestant “music Pastor” Reuben Morgan; the high-powered Days of Elijah and Lion of Judah by Protestant Robin Mark; The Air I Breathe by Marie Barnett of the “Holy Laughter” Vineyard sect; Give us Clean Hearts by Protestant Charlie Hall; and other Protestant songs equally trendy. *

I never want you, Max, to say you enjoy hymns or classical music (like Bach the Lutheran) at Mass. And no Requiem Mass, it was written by a Mason.
 
Look, if that article is even remotely like what Charismatic services are like, then can you see why Traditionalist catholics wouldn’t be interested?

The arguments here have a flavour of the CITH and ‘pro-multis’ controversies, with those in
favour of novelty claiming antiquity and authority for it.

I does not follow that, because some Saints experienced ecstacies, that what occurs at Charismatic services is the same: “Some holy men experienced ecstacies, I experienced an ecstacy, therefore what I experienced is holy”.

The jazzing up of our worship, the Protestant influence, the emotionalism are offputting factors.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top