Traditionalist and Charismatic

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Denise1957 said:
"Traditional’ Catholics attend the Latin Mass. There is nothing in the Latin Mass which supports or encourages the Charismatic movement. Traditional fraternities of priests do not support Charismaticism. You may find an exception to this if you dig long enough. And if it’s one thing that Charismatics are good at, it’s trying to dig and dig to find proof to justify their arguements. We traditionalists, on the other hand, have many centuries of proof that to show the good fruit of traditionalism. Most of the canonized saints on the calendar were nurtured by the Latin Mass. How many who have been leaders in the Charismatic movement are canonized saints?
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I attend the Latin Mass, about once a month. I help serve for it. I know there was a parish in Michigan that was actually looking to incorporate their charismatic spirituality into the Latin Mass, and I know other charismatic priests that say the Latin Mass. The fact is, the Church - guided always by the Holy Spirit, has changed the liturgy. This is a good thing. Pope Benedict XVI has made the Tridentine Form available as well, which is also a good thing! But we are in a different time period - what was fruitful at one point may not necessarily be fruitful today. Read this rev-know-it-all.com/2011/2011—05-15.html , and actually, if you can, read his whole series (that is just the last bit of it). As a traditional, I think you’ll definitely appreciate it.

Well, Bl. John Paul II was of course just beautified. Here’s a quote I have been looking for…

“…This is my first meeting with you, Catholic charismatics . . . I have always belonged to this renewal in the Holy Spirit. . . . I am convinced that this movement is a sign of his action. The world is much in need of this action of the Holy Spirit, and it needs many instruments for this action. . . . Through this action, the Holy Spirit comes to the human spirit, and from this moment we begin to live again, to find our very selves, to find our identity, our total humanity. Consequently, I am convinced that this movement is a very important component in the total renewal of the church, in this spiritual renewal of the church.” (Audience with Cardinal Suenens and the Council Members of the International Charismatic Renewal Office. December 11, 1979).

However, the charismatic “movement” hasn’t even been around for 50 years. So don’t ask us to identify canonized saints among the leaders, since most of the beginners and leaders of it are still alive.

I would contest, however, that all the saints have been charismatic.
 
vardaquinn said:
I attend the Latin Mass, about once a month. I help serve for it. I know there was a parish in Michigan that was actually looking to incorporate their charismatic spirituality into the Latin Mass, and I know other charismatic priests that say the Latin Mass. The fact is, the Church - guided always by the Holy Spirit, has changed the liturgy. This is a good thing. Pope Benedict XVI has made the Tridentine Form available as well, which is also a good thing! But we are in a different time period - what was fruitful at one point may not necessarily be fruitful today. Read this rev-know-it-all.com/2011/2011—05-15.html , and actually, if you can, read his whole series (that is just the last bit of it). As a traditional, I think you’ll definitely appreciate it.

Well, Bl. John Paul II was of course just beautified. Here’s a quote I have been looking for…

“…This is my first meeting with you, Catholic charismatics . . . I have always belonged to this renewal in the Holy Spirit. . . . I am convinced that this movement is a sign of his action. The world is much in need of this action of the Holy Spirit, and it needs many instruments for this action. . . . Through this action, the Holy Spirit comes to the human spirit, and from this moment we begin to live again, to find our very selves, to find our identity, our total humanity. Consequently, I am convinced that this movement is a very important component in the total renewal of the church, in this spiritual renewal of the church.” (Audience with Cardinal Suenens and the Council Members of the International Charismatic Renewal Office. December 11, 1979).

However, the charismatic “movement” hasn’t even been around for 50 years. So don’t ask us to identify canonized saints among the leaders, since most of the beginners and leaders of it are still alive.

I would contest, however, that all the saints have been charismatic.
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It doesn’t surprise me that you Charismatics are trying to work your way into Traditionalism, which is why you are here on the traditionalist forum, no doubt. But the traditional fraternities of priests do not support the Charismatic movement, as I have stated. I’ve been attending the TLM for five years - never heard or read that a Traditional priest from the prevalent fraternities have supported the Charismatic movement. You won’t see any of them wagging their heads at Mass, babbling in strange tongues, or outside of Mass, either. Nor do they encourage others to do so. Ever.

You mentioned that the Charismatic movement has only been around for 50 years. Which backs up my point. It isn’t traditional. Never will be.
 
Denise1957 said:
It doesn’t surprise me that you Charismatics are trying to work your way into Traditionalism, which is why you are here on the traditionalist forum, no doubt. But the traditional fraternities of priests do not support the Charismatic movement, as I have stated. I’ve been attending the TLM for five years - never heard or read that a Traditional priest from the prevalent fraternities have supported the Charismatic movement. You won’t see any of them wagging their heads at Mass, babbling in strange tongues, or outside of Mass, either. Nor do they encourage others to do so. Ever.

You mentioned that the Charismatic movement has only been around for 50 years. Which backs up my point. It isn’t traditional. Never will be.
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I assure you, in my situation, I’m a traditionalist who is trying to work his way into Charismaticism. I’ve only even known about the Charismatic Renewal for about a year, which is why I’ve done so much research into it.

Well, you would need speaking in tongues to be approved by the local bishop before you could add it into the Mass - as has been done in many places, like the Fransiscan University of Stuebenville and some charismatic parishes. Outside of Mass is another matter. This is a legitimate change, that the bishops have the authority to do.

The Charismatic Renewal started in 1967, as the direct result of Vatican II, and the Church’s prayers for a new Pentecost. Key word: RENEWAL. It’s a revival of ancient tradition - the emphasis on the charisms.

Let’s shift this aside then. We’ve defended “charismaticism”. You defend your “traditionalist” mentality. Why are you against the Charismatic Renewal? Why is it incompatible with traditionalism? Why are you against the charismatic gifts?
 
Once again, this whole perceived “conflict” between Traditionals and Charismatics is absurd. Just do what the Church says.
 
vardaquinn said:
I assure you, in my situation, I’m a traditionalist who is trying to work his way into Charismaticism. I’ve only even known about the Charismatic Renewal for about a year, which is why I’ve done so much research into it.

Well, you would need speaking in tongues to be approved by the local bishop before you could add it into the Mass - as has been done in many places, like the Fransiscan University of Stuebenville and some charismatic parishes. Outside of Mass is another matter. This is a legitimate change, that the bishops have the authority to do.

The Charismatic Renewal started in 1967, as the direct result of Vatican II, and the Church’s prayers for a new Pentecost. Key word: RENEWAL. It’s a revival of ancient tradition - the emphasis on the charisms.

Let’s shift this aside then. We’ve defended “charismaticism”. You defend your “traditionalist” mentality. Why are you against the Charismatic Renewal? Why is it incompatible with traditionalism? Why are you against the charismatic gifts?
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Your questions here have already been answered. Just go through and read all of the pages on this thread.
 
‘Renewal’ suggests that Catholicism was outdated, or something. I’d settle at the moment
for a TLM in my home area. Failing that, a solemn mass said without local niceties added.

If you look around your congregation and there are perfomers in the sanctuary and mostly grey heads in the congregation, maybe a bit of old-fashioned clericalism is called for 😃
 
InquisitorMax said:
‘Renewal’ suggests that Catholicism was outdated, or something. I’d settle at the moment
for a TLM in my home area. Failing that, a solemn mass said without local niceties added.

If you look around your congregation and there are perfomers in the sanctuary and mostly grey heads in the congregation, maybe a bit of old-fashioned clericalism is called for 😃
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The Church has always continued to affirm that the Church is ALWAYS in need of upbuilding and Renewal. Catholicisim was never outdated.

I do not go to a charismatic parish. So far as I know, none of the parishioners are really charismatic. I’m rather unique. We have a gorgeous Church, and a reverent and respectful liturgy and orthodox liturgy.

It’s really unfortunate to see such vehement opposition to the working of the Holy Spirit.
 
vardaquinn said:
The Church has always continued to affirm that the Church is ALWAYS in need of upbuilding and Renewal. Catholicisim was never outdated.

I do not go to a charismatic parish. So far as I know, none of the parishioners are really charismatic. I’m rather unique. We have a gorgeous Church, and a reverent and respectful liturgy and orthodox liturgy.

It’s really unfortunate to see such vehement opposition to the working of the Holy Spirit.
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Do not be discouraged by those who are closed- minded and those with hardened hearts.

The Holy Spirit will move where He wills.

I am not charismatic, but I pray every day for increased wisdom and understanding and I would never refuse any gifts that God would bestow. The gift of tongues is the least of the gifts, but if God should give me that gift, I would accept it.

If a person is truly “traditional”, they will follow what is true as proclaimed by the Magisterium. If they do not, well, they are just fooling themselves. There should be no conflict with “traditionalism” and any legitimate practice of the Church.

No one has to like it, but to deny it, is the same as denying the teachings of the Magisterium.
 
This is a very interesting discussion because most of the people I know here in Lubbock who want the traditionalist things to come back, are or were Charismatic. What I see, is that there is one Holy Spirit, the same one that has been given to us by Jesus from the beginning of the Church. He speaks through the Pope, the Magisterium, the traditions and the Sacraments. He speaks through charismatic tongues, Gregorian chant, guitar worship (well, SOME of it) and through Latin, Spanish, English, Chinese, Vietnamese, and all the other languages of the vernacular. He will soon speak the Word to us through the new English translation of the Mass.
And, lest I be accused of flowery prose I will leave it to St. Paul: (1 Corinthians, 4 - 13; Douay-Rheims Version):
Now there are diversities of graces, but the same Spirit; and there are diversities of ministries, but the same Lord; and there are diversities of operations, but the same God, who worketh all in all. And the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man unto profit. To one indeed, by the Spirit, is given the word of wisdom; and t another, the word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit; to another, faith in the same Spirit, to another, the grace of healing in the One Spirit; to another, the working of miracles; to another, prophecy; to another, the discernng of spiirits, to another, diverse kinds of tongues, to another, interpretation of speeches; But all these things one and the same Spirit worketh, dividing to every one according as the Spirit will. For as the body is one, and hath many members; and all the members of the body, whereas they are many, yet are one body, so also is Christ; for in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free; and in one Spirit we have all been made to drink.

Interestingly enough, when I veil for Mass the women who give me the LEAST amount of flak about it are the Charismatics.
 
Indyann said:
Do not be discouraged by those who are closed- minded and those with hardened hearts.

The Holy Spirit will move where He wills.

I am not charismatic, but I pray every day for increased wisdom and understanding and I would never refuse any gifts that God would bestow. The gift of tongues is the least of the gifts, but if God should give me that gift, I would accept it.

If a person is truly “traditional”, they will follow what is true as proclaimed by the Magisterium. If they do not, well, they are just fooling themselves. There should be no conflict with “traditionalism” and any legitimate practice of the Church.

No one has to like it, but to deny it, is the same as denying the teachings of the Magisterium.
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Quote:

“No one has to like it, but to deny it, is the same as denying the teachings of the Magisterium.”

No, it isn’t. Where in Church teaching or doctrine does it say that we have to accept the Charismatic movement? We are Catholics, not Pentacostals.
 
Denise1957 said:
Quote:

“No one has to like it, but to deny it, is the same as denying the teachings of the Magisterium.”

No, it isn’t. Where in Church teaching or doctrine does it say that we have to accept the Charismatic movement? We are Catholics, not Pentacostals.
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Exactly! And Catholics listen to the voice of the Church who has approved of the Charisamatic Movement, as well as the Traditional Movement.
 
Indyann said:
Exactly! And Catholics listen to the voice of the Church who has approved of the Charisamatic Movement, as well as the Traditional Movement.
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Again, where in Church teaching is it stated that we have to accept Charismaticism? Please be specific. Please state how being against Charismaticism is to be a bad Catholic, or going against the magisterium? Charismaticism does not belong to the deposit of faith. Just because someone supports (even a pope) Charismaticism doesn’t mean that we have to give our assent to it.
 
We’re required to accept all the Scriptures as the voice of God, including 1 Cor. 12-14.👍
 
john_aurelius said:
We’re required to accept all the Scriptures as the voice of God, including 1 Cor. 12-14.👍
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Protestants have the tendency to pull or isolate quotes from scripture in order to prove a point. Catholics will sometimes do the same thing in order to try to prove the validity of their own personal pet novelty. They do the same thing as Protestants in this regard. Our Catholic faith is based on Church teaching, not on private interpretation of scripture.

It is the Catholic Church alone which has been given the lawful authority by God Himself to interpret Scripture. There is no other lawful authority.
 
Denise1957 said:
Again, where in Church teaching is it stated that we have to accept Charismaticism? Please be specific. Please state how being against Charismaticism is to be a bad Catholic, or going against the magisterium? Charismaticism does not belong to the deposit of faith. Just because someone supports (even a pope) Charismaticism doesn’t mean that we have to give our assent to it.
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The Mass said in Latin is not part of the deposit of faith either, but I respect it and encourage those who prefer it to attend. Why cannot you afford those who prefer other spiritualities the same consideration?
 
Indyann said:
The Mass said in Latin is not part of the deposit of faith either, but I respect it and encourage those who prefer it to attend. Why cannot you afford those who prefer other spiritualities the same consideration?
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It’s nice that you respect the Latin Mass, but I personally don’t have a need for you to do so.

Charismaticism is a lot of silly nonsense, which has very little to do with our beloved Third Person of the Holy Trinity.
 
Denise1957 said:
It’s nice that you respect the Latin Mass, but I personally don’t have a need for you to do so.

Charismaticism is a lot of silly nonsense, which has very little to do with our beloved Third Person of the Holy Trinity.
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Nor do I have aneed for you to accept the Charasmatic Renewal.

Who do you think I’m going to agree with? You, or many great teachers and theologians?

We are all entitled to our own opinions on the matter, but we are not entitled to belittle and denigrate those who think differently than we do.
 
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