Traditionalist and Charismatic

[john_aurelius]

I don’t have a fear of Charismaticism. It’s just that I’m not a Protestant. I’m Catholic.

So, are you saying that Catholic Charismatics are Protestant or just that I am for having a high view of Scripture, just like St. Jerome urges us to have?

I only mentioned 1 Cor 12- 14 but the book of Acts also contains the Charisms of the Holy Spirit.

PaulVI; JP2; Benedict XVI all recognise the Charismatic renewal as part of the Catholic faith so why don’t you? Oh, that’s right, the Magesterium has become Protestant, I forgot…

 

[Denise1957]

Nor do I have aneed for you to accept the Charasmatic Renewal.

Who do you think I’m going to agree with? You, or many great teachers and theologians?

We are all entitled to our own opinions on the matter, but we are not entitled to belittle and denigrate those who think differently than we do.

I have not intended to belittle those who are Charismatics. It is Charismaticism which I denigrate. Very much so. It is essentially Protestant. It is not part of the deposit of faith that we, as Catholics, have to engage in wagging our heads and mumbling in tongues in order to gain Heaven. It’s rediculous. I believe that Charismaticism encourages its participants to engage in behavior that is not befitting a Catholic. There is no proof that what is being presented with the supposed ‘Gifts of the Holy Spirit’ actually is from the Holy Ghost. No proof at all. I personally believe that Charismaticism encourages ‘faking’ of this type of behavior. And what may be being presented, if it is not faked, is more likely demonic oppression. You don’t have to accept this, of course. Just my opinion.

 

[guanophore]

There have been, of course, saintly people who have had spiritual powers as a byproduct of their spiritual advancement. Charismatics look to me like they are deliberately seeking out phenomena. Which is spiritually dangerous.

Yes, the saints are clear that we should not seek “phenomena”. But the idea that the gifts are only manifested through the “spiritually advanced” is roundly contradicted in scripture. In fact, Scripture testifies the opposite.

 

[guanophore]

I don’t see anything in the vatican document that shows that Bl. Pope John Paul ll was a Charismatic. I already know that he gave his support to this movement. I also don’t doubt that there are a few ‘vibrant’ Catholics who consider themselves leaders. Fine. I still do not support Charismaticism, and never will. There isn’t anything ‘Traditional’ about Charismaticism, no matter how hard you and others to try to persuade traditionalists that it is traditional. It is not, and never will be.

It is is fortunate, then, that the your idea of “charismaticism” is contrary to what all these people are supporting. It is not necessary to have “maticism” in order to have a charismatic expereince as a traditional catholic. There is no more traditional charismatic commentary than the Holy Scriptures. If Catholics refuse to accept what is written there, what else can be done to reach them?

 

[Denise1957]

It is is fortunate, then, that the your idea of “charismaticism” is contrary to what all these people are supporting. It is not necessary to have “maticism” in order to have a charismatic expereince as a traditional catholic. There is no more traditional charismatic commentary than the Holy Scriptures. If Catholics refuse to accept what is written there, what else can be done to reach them?

I’m not sure that I understand what you are getting at here, exactly. But when you mention that there is no more traditional charismatic commentary than the Holy Scriptures I have to point out that our Catholic Faith isn’t based only on Holy Scripture. It is based on Scripture and Tradition. There is nothing in tradition to support the Charismatic movement. Nothing at all. This is not to debase or say anything against the Holy Ghost, the Third Person of the Holy Trinity. He will work in our life and our souls without the so-called Charismatic gifts. The Charismatics do not own Him. He was with us from the start, and has always been with us. He did not start working in the Church when the Charismatic movement began. He has always been there for us. Always.

 

[guanophore]

I’m not sure that I understand what you are getting at here, exactly. But when you mention that there is no more traditional charismatic commentary than the Holy Scriptures I have to point out that our Catholic Faith isn’t based only on Holy Scripture. It is based on Scripture and Tradition.

I did not claim that it was. I said that there is no better testimony to the traditional nature of the charismatic experience than the New Testament. The NT was written by, for, and about Catholics. And they were charismatic Catholics.

There is nothing in tradition to support the Charismatic movement. Nothing at all.

While I disagree with you, I can also say that it is possible to be a very charismatic Catholic without being part of any “movement”.

Do you think the charismatic gifts described in the NT were part of a “movement”?

This is not to debase or say anything against the Holy Ghost, the Third Person of the Holy Trinity. He will work in our life and our souls without the so-called Charismatic gifts.

Yes, but why truncate one’s spiritual experience? It seems to me to come from fear.

What do you mean “so called”?! They are “so called” in the Holy Scripture!

The Charismatics do not own Him. He was with us from the start, and has always been with us. He did not start working in the Church when the Charismatic movement began. He has always been there for us. Always.

Of course! But you don’t see the kind of expressions often that are witnessed in the NT…Why do you suppose that is? Why do you think the Apostles encouraged the charismatic experience?

 

[guanophore]

The emotional ejaculations of Pentecostalism have no place in traditional Catholicism.

I distinctly remember reading in an old Catholic prayer book recently that certain indulgences are connected to ejaculations. Why would you say there is anything wrong with praising God? Maybe I do not understand what you mean by “emotional ejaculation”? Or maybe the prayer book wanted us to express ourselves in an emotionless manner?

Altar Calls,

What do you think happened at the first Pentecost? I know they were not near an altar, or at least, not that the text indicates, but what is wrong with calling people to repentance?

practitioners fainting

Perhaps you are referring to the phenomenon called “slain in the spirit”? If so, it has nothing to do with fainting, and can also be found in Scripture.

and speaking in tongues,

How do you dispense with all the Scriptural references on this one?!?!?!?!

women dancing up and down aisles,

Is it ok for men and children to dance, or do you just prohibit women?

and music of modern motifs blaring should not be allowed in the house of God.

I agree that the Liturgy should not be contaminated with chaos or any modernism. However, there is no reason that people cannot have a prayer meeting where non-liturgical music is used, and the praise has emotional aspect. Sometimes I wonder why Catholics seem to be so afraid to involve the body and emotions in worship. What is there to fear? Did not God give us our emotions?

It reminds me of Michal, looking down from her window, and being ashamed of David dancing before the Ark of God.

 

[Solemn_Sheep]

Pax et bonum!
What is the relationship between Traditionalism and Charismatic Renewal-ism?

The two should go hand in hand and be complementary. If we want to know how true Charisimatic Catholics act then we only need to look at the lives of the saints and observe their actions and spirituality.

I personally haven’t found a Saint who’s spiritual life is like that of the Charismatic Renewal-ism currently going on in the Church today.

 

[guanophore]

I firmly believe that a traditional Catholic can be a charismatic Catholic - but outside the holy Mass.

This does not make any sense. The person does not change when he is in Mass, or out! Just because a person is not disorderly during liturgy, that does not mean he is less charismatic.

 The great and glorious sacrifice that our Lord instituted is a time for conservatism, solemnity, peace, and quiet.

It is quite possible to have a “charismatic” Mass that is like this. The local archbishop conducts at least one every year here.

To be perfectly serious, I believe you can have as many para-liturgical “healing services” as you want, just not a Mass.

I agree, but it is also not contrary to have a healing Mass.It is no different than any other Mass, except that it usually takes longer. Most of the clergy will close the Mass, then do an anointing of the sick after the dismissal.

If a man has a spirituality centered around the imagined charismatic gifts and it brings him closer to God, let him do that.

I think this is a very bad idea for many reasons. For one, no one should center one’s spiritual life around anything “imagined”. This is contrary to the Apostolic Faith, and very dangerous.

Second, even if one experiences authentic charismatic gifts, like Padre Pio, one should never “center” their spiritual expereince around them. The center of the Christian life should always be Jesus. One should seek the Giver, not the gifts.

As long as there is proper catechesis and he understands that what he's doing has nothing to do with the sacraments, it seems fine!

I don’t see why someones form of prayer needs to be separated from the Sacraments. This is not consistent with the NT record, either. St. Paul addresses the Corinthians in the context of the Divine Liturgy.

Let them have their underground pentecostal revival meetings and their happy-go-lucky events, but let the Mass be left to its ancient solemnities!

The two are not contrary to one another.

But in general, I agree. Prayer meetings need to be held outside of the Liturgy.

 

[john_aurelius]

Just so you dont think Im only quoting Scripture (and be accused of being a Protestant)

Irenaeus, Against heresies, V.6.I as quoted by Eusebius,

“Similarly, we hear of many members of the Church who have prophetic gifts and by the Spirit speak with all kinds of tongues, and bring secret thoughts to light for their own good, and expound the mysteries of God.”

Its not merely the church of the NT which excercised the charism of tongues etc. Here is an example of the early church and being used as a demonstration of the gifts of the H.S. continuing.

Irenaeus has an outstanding Catholic pedigree, understands the Scriptures and is very close to the original sources of our Tradition.

 

[guanophore]

I was invited to a Charismatic Mass. I declined because the person who invited me said that " we’ll be speaking in tongues".

I found it odd that something of the sort can be planned and dialed up at will.

We follow the apostolic commandment “do not quench the Spirit”.

Every baptized person can potentially exercise all gifts of the Spirit. The HS, though, does not seize people against their will. The Spirit will pray through a person only if that person is willing.

 

[InquisitorMax]

Yes, the saints are clear that we should not seek “phenomena”. But the idea that the gifts are only manifested through the “spiritually advanced” is roundly contradicted in scripture. In fact, Scripture testifies the opposite.

This is the argument that the Charismatic Renewal is receiving the Holy Spirit in the same way as the Apostles. The Apostles had the direct intervention of Jesus, as He was starting His Church. If that was happening in Charismatic circles they’d be fighting to control the crowds.

 

[guanophore]

This is the argument that the Charismatic Renewal is receiving the Holy Spirit in the same way as the Apostles. The Apostles had the direct intervention of Jesus, as He was starting His Church. If that was happening in Charismatic circles they’d be fighting to control the crowds.

I am confused about what you are saying here. Do you mean that, since chaos and abuse of God’s gifts exist, the gifts are not authentic?

To me that seems like saying that, since the Liturgy has been abused by modern innovations and creeping protestant (and sometimes even Pagan) influences, that the Mass is not valid. It does not make any sense.

 

[john_aurelius]

This is the argument that the Charismatic Renewal is receiving the Holy Spirit in the same way as the Apostles. The Apostles had the direct intervention of Jesus, as He was starting His Church. If that was happening in Charismatic circles they’d be fighting to control the crowds.

So, are you just trying to rile the Charismatics?

BTW the numbers involved in the Charismatic Renewal are huge. Much larger than the numbers going to TLM.

 

[guanophore]

This is the argument that the Charismatic Renewal is receiving the Holy Spirit in the same way as the Apostles.

No, it is not. The Apostles taught that the charismatic gifts are given as much to the spiritually immature as not. No one can claim that the Church in Corinth is not Catholic! Yet they had liturgical abuses and chaos at meetings because they lacked instruction and were immature Christians.

I am not sure what you mean here by “same way as the Apostles”. If you mean that they have faith like lilttl children and ask for the HS and expect God to give, then I guess it is the same.

The problems in the Protestant Pentecostal movements stem from the same place allthe other problems do in the ecclesial communities of our separated brethren.They lack Apostolic authority, and proper instruction. Most of them don’t know any better.

 

[Solemn_Sheep]

BTW the numbers involved in the Charismatic Renewal are huge. Much larger than the numbers going to TLM.

And the point of that is what?

 

[john_aurelius]

And the point of that is what?

only responding to having to "beat away the crowds"as posted by a Traditionalist RRRoman Catholic

 

[Solemn_Sheep]

only responding to having to "beat away the crowds"as posted by a Traditionalist RRRoman Catholic

Gotcha!

Both sides should know that quality is more important the quantity and that there shouldn’t be divisions among us. By baptism we are baptised in the Holy Spirit so whether anyone here wants to admit it or not we are all charismatics. The question is who’s “gifts” are truly from the Spirit and who’s aren’t. Saint Paul says we must be eager for the gifts of the spirit but he also tells us that we must pray without ceasing and to moritfy our bodies. We are called to a life of love, penance, and self sacrifice and only when we die to ourselves will God live in us.

I for one am all for a charismatic renewal, however I also feel that the current Charistamtic Renewal group could use some much needed reformation.

 

[john_aurelius]

so we should just let people claim our gifts are demonically inspired? I don’t think thats what Jesus would have done

 

[vardaquinn]

Do not be discouraged by those who are closed- minded and those with hardened hearts.

The Holy Spirit will move where He wills.

I am not charismatic, but I pray every day for increased wisdom and understanding and I would never refuse any gifts that God would bestow. The gift of tongues is the least of the gifts, but if God should give me that gift, I would accept it.

If a person is truly “traditional”, they will follow what is true as proclaimed by the Magisterium. If they do not, well, they are just fooling themselves. There should be no conflict with “traditionalism” and any legitimate practice of the Church.

No one has to like it, but to deny it, is the same as denying the teachings of the Magisterium.

Thank you. That’s the attitude everyone should have.

1. The Church has not said “everybody has to join up with the charismatic movement”. True. But it has said that everyone is supposed to use the charismatic gifts and experience the reality of Pentecost. This is essentially what “charismaticism” is. It is, as John Paul II points out, a co-essential dimension along with the institutional dimension to the very NATURE of the Church. See above for quotes I have posted. 1 See Corinthians 12 - 14. Here’s some quotes from Church Fathers:

“If you want proof that the Spirit of God, who was with your people and left you to come to us, come into our assemblies and there you will see Him cast out demons, heal the sick, and hear Him speak in tongues and prophesy.” - Justin Martyr

Since no one has the capacity to receive all spiritual gifts, but the grace of the Spirit is
given proportionately to the faith of each, when one is living in community with others,
the grace privately bestowed on each individual becomes the common possession of the
others. . . . One who receives any of these gifts does not possess it for his own sake but
rather for the sake of others - St. Basil

Homily by St. John Chrysostom: newadvent.org/fathers/220129.htm

. . . for which cause also his [Christ’s] true disciples having received grace
from him use it in his name for the benefit of the rest of men, even as
each has received the gift from him. For some drive out demons with
certainty and truth, so that often those who have themselves been
cleansed from the evil spirits believe and are in the church, and some
have foreknowledge of things to be, and visions and prophetic speech,
and others cure the sick by the laying on of hands and make them whole
and even as we have said, the dead have been raised and remained with
us for many years. And why should I say more? It is not possible to tell
the number of the gifts which the church throughout the whole world,
having received them from God in the name of Jesus Christ, who was
crucified under Pontius Pilate, uses each day for the benefit of the
heathen, deceiving none and making profit from none. For as it received
freely from God, it ministers also freely. Just as also we hear many brethren in the church who have gifts of
prophecy, and who speak through the Spirit with all manner of tongues,
and who bring the hidden things of men into the clearness for the
common good and expound the mysteries of God. - St. Ireneus

1. You have labeled the Charismatic Movement as Protestant. In what way is it Protestant?? In fact, your standpoint is Protestant. What is Protestantism, essentially? The reduction and “protest” of certain aspects of the faith. The watering down of Christianity. It’s hardly making up new doctrines, so much as taking away doctrines - the Eucharist, the authority of the Pope, etc. Since the charismatic dimension of the faith is essential to the very nature of the Church (meaning: where it is not present, there is something essential lacking), and since you “protest” this: your standpoint is Protestant.
2. I’d be willing to bet that the anti-charismatics on here have in fact used charismatic gifts before in their lives. Being charismatic is not so much receiving new gifts, as responding to the gifts we have already been given in baptism and confirmation (or so claims Pope Benedict XVI). I would not be in the least surprised if you yourselves have exercised one or more of the charismatic gifts described in Corinthians. People I have talked to before, who have objections to the Charismatic Renewal, have been surprised when I described what the charismatic gifts were when they recognized them having worked in their own lives.
3. If there is a conflict with traditionalism and “charismaticism”, which do you think is more important? Which is essential to the very nature of the Church?