Traditionalist and Charismatic

[john_aurelius]

Sorry John but I dont view you as an authority on what Jesus would have or wouldn’t have done. I personally do not like the whole wwjd saying since that type of thinking resembles the same type of thinking Christians had when they invented sola scriptura. Jesus’ actions are perfect and therefore can never be said to be what we sinners would do.

Jesus denied that his actions were from Beelzubub, the prince of demons and said that the Pharasiees were vipers and hypocrites many times.

This is recorded in Scripture for all the world to see.

That is how I know what Jesus would have done.

If God acts miraculously and people call it demonic, This is a “case example” of how Jesus behaved.

You’re saying that I did it uncharitably perhaps? I would disagre there too as nothing I’ve written was intended to attack Traditionalism only defend my own faith and God’s work in my life.

If you chech out my earliest posts, I said that 1 Cor 13 was included between 12 and 14 because of this exact situation.

 

[vardaquinn]

Well put and I agree, however should the practices of a group be exempt from scrutiny? Both Saint Teresa and Saint John where key in the reformation of the Carmelite Order and so I believe the same needs to be done within the Charismatic Renewal. I think they have the right idea but the way they are going about this renewal I believe is all wrong.

I agree too. At least in my diocese, from the little I know, there is much much need of reform. I know of parishes and places in other diocese where the Renewal has definitely matured, though, and they are doing a much better job of thing.

youtube.com/watch?v=yu8W1whUTpg

youtube.com/watch?v=IP8bfkHbzS8&feature=related

Now I will be the first to say I dont know if this is the norm but if it is do you think it resembles the spirituality of the saints or even that of Pentecost? Something tells me the Apostles service was a bit more solemn, quiet with fasting and prayer.

I agree as well, at least I don’t think resembles the spirituality of the saints. I don’t know about “quiet” per se, but certainly more reverent. I think it would greatly behoove charismatics if they took advantage of the organ. There should be a proper balance between a contemplative solemn atmosphere, and exultant rejoicing jubilant praise. Example: youtube.com/watch?v=zlSK8vn55ZA&feature=related

Tongues do have a place and I believe Saint Paul is really clear on what place they have and how they should be used. In services they should be used with an interpreter and for the edification of others. If this is not done then it should between the individual and God and they should be silent. The problem is people just read speaking in tongues and think its biblical but I have yet to see an interpreter of these “tongues.” I dont think people are uncomfortable with the gifts of the Spirit but rather with the way in which the faithful are acting which most view including myself, is not in accordance to the instruction of Saint Paul regarding the proper use of these gifts.

Well, Paul is referring to two different things. He’s talking on the one hand about someone going up to the community and proclaiming in tongues to them. This is useless, without an interpretation. And obviously only some people would do this. But he is also referring to the regular form of prayer tongues which he would like everyone to do. In the context of the liturgy, I condone the use of tongues (for instance after the Gloria) as long as it has the permission and approval of the bishop. It makes sense that the people of God gathered together would praise God in the power of the Holy Spirit, and the bishop has the authority to allow people to use this at Mass.

 

[Heuchler]

I personally attended a Steubenville retreat this weekend and was a bit disturbed by the “charismatic” events that occurred. First, the whole weekend was constant loud, up beat music that was used to create an almost adrenaline rush (there isn’t anything really wrong with this except that it was present all throughout mass and adoration). Second, about every day of the weekend we had a baptist altar call which Catholicism has no need for since we have Confirmation as a time to “publically commit ourselves to Christ and step out the boat.” However this isn’t that terrible just unneeded and a protestant tradition. The final part was adoration. Instead of peaceful praise of Christ it was loud and distracting. Then the gifts of the Spirit came. A man yelled out in a voice of anguish, “GOD FORGIVE ME, FORGIVE ME.”(Something I don’t think the Holy Spirit would cause) Immediately on cue, the “gift” of laughter was sent to a girl who cackled. The rest of adoration was filled with cackling and uncontrollable sobbing. This doesnt seem to come from our God, a God of order but from the minds of troubled, worked up humans. As a magician who has a basic knowledge of hypnotism, it is evident that through the music which provides an adrenaline rush and the people’s want to feal God and receive gifts that our minds cause these feelings (I am not accusing anyone of faking). My main question to those who sincerely believe in the charismatic movement is why do these gifts only occur at your events and not during mass (when we actually receive Christ) or during adoration in mass like Holy Thursday (where I have never witnessed anything beyond reverent prayer.) I do believe that the Holy Spirit is active but I don’t believe he works in laughter and sobbing. I hope this doesn’t offend anyone

 

[john_aurelius]

I personally attended a Steubenville retreat this weekend and was a bit disturbed by the “charismatic” events that occurred. First, the whole weekend was constant loud, up beat music that was used to create an almost adrenaline rush (there isn’t anything really wrong with this except that it was present all throughout mass and adoration). Second, about every day of the weekend we had a baptist altar call which Catholicism has no need for since we have Confirmation as a time to “publically commit ourselves to Christ and step out the boat.” However this isn’t that terrible just unneeded and a protestant tradition. The final part was adoration. Instead of peaceful praise of Christ it was loud and distracting. Then the gifts of the Spirit came. A man yelled out in a voice of anguish, “GOD FORGIVE ME, FORGIVE ME.”(Something I don’t think the Holy Spirit would cause) Immediately on cue, the “gift” of laughter was sent to a girl who cackled. The rest of adoration was filled with cackling and uncontrollable sobbing. This doesnt seem to come from our God, a God of order but from the minds of troubled, worked up humans. As a magician who has a basic knowledge of hypnotism, it is evident that through the music which provides an adrenaline rush and the people’s want to feal God and receive gifts that our minds cause these feelings (I am not accusing anyone of faking). My main question to those who sincerely believe in the charismatic movement is why do these gifts only occur at your events and not during mass (when we actually receive Christ) or during adoration in mass like Holy Thursday (where I have never witnessed anything beyond reverent prayer.) I do believe that the Holy Spirit is active but I don’t believe he works in laughter and sobbing. I hope this doesn’t offend anyone

Did the Apostles succomb to hypnotism? or perhaps the Churches that Paul founded? The Epistle to the Corinithians wouldn’t have been written if everything was perfect, then again, they were corrupting the Eucharist (1 C11) so perhaps that isn’t from God either?

Our natural minds war against God, perhaps the music which itself promotes Jesus is leading people to be receptive to the H.S.

God meets people where they’re at, maybe these people really do need laughter, sobbing and repentance to have a closer relationship with God. After all, He made us and knows our psycology better than any magician does.

 

[Heuchler]

When the Apostles speak in all languages at once, it is not hypnotism. There was nothing to work the crowd or the apostles up to do or perceive something like this and their gifts did not resemble the gifts of the charismatic movement.The sobbing and laughter also seems to be a contradiction. I don’t believe that God would create that type of chaos. It is an emotional hype that most people put themselves into. The oracle of delphi in Greece prophesized in gibberish which was translated by her helpers. Every native american or voodoo ceremony involved frenzied chaos that is present when these “gifts” arrive. Once again knowing a little bit of hypnotism and seeing a hypnotist recreate a protestant faith healing service along with all the gifts such as resting in the spirit, it is seen that people can unknowingly cause themselves to do a lot of things when there is the emotional hype and the desire. I would also like to hear evidence of the gift of laughter, sobbing or resting in the spirit from the early church. And please answer my main question, why doesn’t this happen inside of Church and Holy Thursday adoration. These people may need chaos and sobbing then, too. And, please don’t take offense at this, I don’t intend it as a personal attack.

 

[john_aurelius]

When the Apostles speak in all languages at once, it is not hypnotism. There was nothing to work the crowd or the apostles up to do or perceive something like this and their gifts did not resemble the gifts of the charismatic movement.The sobbing and laughter also seems to be a contradiction. I don’t believe that God would create that type of chaos. It is an emotional hype that most people put themselves into. The oracle of delphi in Greece prophesized in gibberish which was translated by her helpers. Every native american or voodoo ceremony involved frenzied chaos that is present when these “gifts” arrive. Once again knowing a little bit of hypnotism and seeing a hypnotist recreate a protestant faith healing service along with all the gifts such as resting in the spirit, it is seen that people can unknowingly cause themselves to do a lot of things when there is the emotional hype and the desire. I would also like to hear evidence of the gift of laughter, sobbing or resting in the spirit from the early church. And please answer my main question, why doesn’t this happen inside of Church and Holy Thursday adoration. These people may need chaos and sobbing then, too. And, please don’t take offense at this, I don’t intend it as a personal attack.

Does that mean the gibberish prayed by the Corinthians was from teh Oracle at Delphi?

The Holy Spirit would probably know best that there is a time and place for everything. The Charismatic service/ camp you went to would be likely to be that place and time as it was within the control of the pastoral team.

Do you think that the devil (or simply man) can’t duplicate what God has done or is the black mass not a dark reflection of our holy mass?

 

[john_aurelius]

BTW music was first introduced into worship by jews and Christians. Does this mean we were trying to hype our fellow believers up?

 

[vardaquinn]

I’m dubious of the laughter and sobbing, but it’s honestly not up to me to discern its authenticity - that is the primary role of the priest. I think simply being emotional could certainly lead to that. I think laughter and crying are good things, and I don’t see how God wouldn’t use them as a place of the encounter of God. But I think psychological elements are definitely at work here. Being slain in the spirit may be another matter, however. Each individual case is different, so you can’t just write off the whole thing as in-genuine. Some may be genuine, some may think it is genuine, and some maybe are just going along with it to be part of the crowd.

I think the Holy Spirit would certainly not give such experiences at a Mass, because that would not be the time for it.

I’m not a fan of the loud upbeat music myself, but outside of a liturgical context, I don’t see a problem if people want to get hyped up and emotional with it - I myself don’t get hyped up and emotional when I listen to it. I actually find it sobering and distracting.

 

[Solemn_Sheep]

Jesus denied that his actions were from Beelzubub, the prince of demons and said that the Pharasiees were vipers and hypocrites many times.

This is recorded in Scripture for all the world to see.

That is how I know what Jesus would have done.

If God acts miraculously and people call it demonic, This is a “case example” of how Jesus behaved.

You’re saying that I did it uncharitably perhaps? I would disagre there too as nothing I’ve written was intended to attack Traditionalism only defend my own faith and God’s work in my life.

If you chech out my earliest posts, I said that 1 Cor 13 was included between 12 and 14 because of this exact situation.

These were accusations hurled at Jesus Christ…God-Man, sinless and perfect. They are without merit or charge but is this the same when applied to a sinner? Also did Jesus refute every false accusation that was thrown His way?

The point I’m stressing is I would never make your actions or (mine for that matter) out to be the actions of Christ or even on the same level.

Also maybe you could share with everyone here how you are able to know when someone has genuine gifts from the Spirit and when someone is pulling your chain. I think this information would help a lot of people with their uneasiness.

@vardaquinn

Thank for that link it was beautiful and Its been a pleasure talking with you.

 

[john_aurelius]

These were accusations hurled at Jesus Christ…God-Man, sinless and perfect. They are without merit or charge but is this the same when applied to a sinner? Also did Jesus refute every false accusation that was thrown His way?

The point I’m stressing is I would never make your actions or (mine for that matter) out to be the actions of Christ or even on the same level.

Also maybe you could share with everyone here how you are able to know when someone has genuine gifts from the Spirit and when someone is pulling your chain. I think this information would help a lot of people with their uneasiness.

.

So if someone says that the work of the Holy Spirit is of the devil then you dont think that this is similar to an excorcism being performed and being described of as from the devil?

The accusations are against the Holy Spirit truly God not against me

 

[Heuchler]

All I am saying is that the gifts from the Almighty God would be more unreproducable such as the ones present within the Bible, not what can be reproduced in the exact same way by every other religion along with hypnotists. The hypnotist (Derren Brown, you can view this on youtube under Derren Brown Miracles for Sale) was able to produce the Holy Spirit. I believe that the Holy Spirit wouldn’t enter and work then (or that it can be called at will). And the Holy Spirit is not needed to be contained, it is there to edify the Church (something I dont see in these gifts) when the Apostles received the Holy Spirit, they were afraid, hiding. It did not wait until they were ready and at the right meeting where they were supervised, it came. The Spirit is there to edify the Church. It does not wait till we are ready nor does it stay contained at the group’s personal meetings. And yes because every shaman and the oracles spoke gibberish means that it is easy for any religious to work themselves up and perform emotional (and non-supernatural) acts. However, as Vardaquinn stated, some of this may be genuine in the case of tongues but in my experience I believe most of it is caused by emotion. However, Christ never taught this and Charismaticism is not a part of the deposit of faith meaning I am not required to believe it.

 

[Solemn_Sheep]

So if someone says that the work of the Holy Spirit is of the devil then you dont think that this is similar to an excorcism being performed and being described of as from the devil?

The accusations are against the Holy Spirit truly God not against me

The accusations are not against the Holy Spirit but against the authenticity of the people proclaiming to have and exercise such “gifts”. If demons can appear as angels of light, and wolves can be in sheeps clothing then we are called to be vigilant and test them (1 John 4:1-6) to discover their origin. This is why I asked you to share with us how you know for sure whether or not these peoples claims are genuine.

I have noticed that there is a type of tactic being used amongst Catholics that resembles the mccarthyism of the 1940’s.

 

[john_aurelius]

The accusations are not against the Holy Spirit but against the authenticity of the people proclaiming to have and exercise such “gifts”. If demons can appear as angels of light, and wolves can be in sheeps clothing then we are called to be vigilant and test them (1 John 4:1-6) to discover their origin. This is why I asked you to share with us how you know for sure whether or not these peoples claims are genuine.

I have noticed that there is a type of tactic being used amongst Catholics that resembles the mccarthyism of the 1940’s.

If you’d read the thread in context, the person I was disagreeing with had said that there were no longer** any**Holy Spirit inspired tongues.

This is in disagreement with Scripture, Chruch Tradition, the recent Popes and the CCC 2003.

Therefore I see it as attacking the work of the Holy Spirit.

I have not met the American Charismatics which he so dislikes but I can tell you that they are under the supervision of their bishops, priests and spiritual directors just as any Catholic is.

What tactic is that? Sorry, elusive historical statements of your own nation are not Catholic teaching… Are you saying I’m treating non-charismatic catholics as if they were communist? hardly. I have no problem with either Latin or the Latin Mass. I prefer the OF but that is irrelevant.

I dont say that they are of the devil because they attend it (although they may be schismatic if they’re SSPX).

 

[guanophore]

And the point of that is what?

It is meeting some kind of need.

 

[Heuchler]

John, the main problem is that the gifts of the Holy Spirit along with the extreme emotions present in the charismatic movement don’t seem (to us) to edify the Church and to be from God. During my Steubenville experience, I felt that God would never have a man scream out in anguish FORGIVE ME. It doesn’t seem to represent our God a God of love ( nor did it represent order as he interrupted the Priest who was praying that distractions would leave at the moment). I also don’t understand why there would be an uncontrollable sobbing or laughing. While talking to one of my charismatic friends, they thought that demons had come in and done whatever. Yet this occurred in front of the Eucharist. Another said that it was caused by demons leaving those people. If this were true, then things of this occurrence would happen during the mass often where we actually receive Christ. It didnt even occur during the mass there. It is just weird to some of us the nature of these gifts along with the fact they only occur at protestant services and special meetings.

 

[guanophore]

Gotcha! ;)

Both sides should know that quality is more important the quantity and that there shouldn’t be divisions among us. By **baptism we are baptised in the Holy Spirit **so whether anyone here wants to admit it or not we are all charismatics.

This is what the archbishop here likes to say.

The question is who’s “gifts” are truly from the Spirit and who’s aren’t. Saint Paul says we must be eager for the gifts of the spirit but he also tells us that we must pray without ceasing and to moritfy our bodies. We are called to a life of love, penance, and self sacrifice and only when we die to ourselves will God live in us.

I for one am all for a charismatic renewal, however I also feel that the current Charistamtic Renewal group could use some much needed reformation.

Any charismatic practices that do not lead the adnerants closer to the sacramental life and the Scriptures are likely to be at the least not useful, and at the most, misleading.

 

[guanophore]

Most of your responses and questions here revolve around the NT. What you don’t seem to understand is that Catholicism is based on Scripture and Tradition.

Sorry Denise, this won’t work with me.

You see, I know that the NT is completely the product of Catholic Sacred Tradition. There is nothing in the NT that is not Catholic. All 27 books in it are written by, for, and about Catholics. That is why there is no more traditional source of testimony to the charismatic gifts than the NT.

You may be confusing Protestantism with CAtholicism, since the Protestant sects are based on Scripture and the teachings of certain men who generally started sects based on their own interpretation of Scripture.

So, you think the presence of error invalidates the Truth?

The fact that some people departed from the Teachings of the Apostles infallibly preserved by the Holy Spirit in the Catholic Church makes the testimony in the Scriptures to the charismatic gifts less true?

You asked if the Charismatic gifts described in the NT were part of a movement. Well, in a sense, maybe they were, but I don’t know what the Church teaches regarding this.

Many of the Teachings have been posted on this thread. I just read some quotes from Vat.II. So, are you saying you don’t accept what the Magesterium has said?

I would stipulate that the modern pentecostal movement is so far from the Apostolic Teachings as to be quite outside their instruction.

Certainly after the Apostolic age, there was no movement or teaching of the Church which encouraged Catholics to engage willfully in the Gits of the Holy Ghost. You can point to one or two saints who talked about it, but that’s not the same thing.

Do you think there is some “movement” required that has more value than the Holy Scriptures?

 Your other question regarding..."why should we truncate our spiritual experience.?" Well, the reason for the existence of the Catholic Church is to see to the salvation of souls. There is nothing in Church teaching which says that we must have "spiritual experiences," like those that you advocate, in order to gain Heaven.

You did not answer my question. Why truncate spiritual experience? Why settle for the abridged version? What about living the fullness of the spiritual life? Why should we focus on just getting into heaven’s door? Why not live a triumphant and joyful spiritual life, empowered the way the Christians are in the NT?

… but not Catholics. If the Holy Ghost chooses to manifest these gifts, that’s fine. But it is not a part of Church teaching that we need to seek them out in order to save our souls.

Why are people so afraid of abundant living?

How can we possibly do more than Jesus did, without the power of the HS working in our lives?

Your last question refers to what I said about “so-called” Charismatic gifts. As I have before said, there’s no proof that what Charismatics are “manifesting” with their so-called gifts is really that of the Holy Ghost. You may “feel” that it is the Holy Ghost, but that’s not real evidence.

What would you consider “real evidence”? Do you think there is any way to discern if the gifts are valid?

Charismatics seem to have the idea that traditional Catholics know nothing about how the Third Person of the Holy Trinity works in our lives. That’s just silly. The Holy Ghost actively works in the lives of Catholics without manifesting or channelling Him on cue.

Really? How is that?

What does it mean to “channel Him on cue”? That sounds kinda new agey to me!

I depend on the Holy Ghost every day to help me. And there’s no head wagging or mumbling in tongues involved, either.

Is “head wagging” and “mumbling” in your New Testament lists of the gifts of the Holy Spirit?

I have a Catholic Bible, and I can’t find those references. Can you help me?

 

[john_aurelius]

John, the main problem is that the gifts of the Holy Spirit along with the extreme emotions present in the charismatic movement don’t seem (to us) to edify the Church and to be from God. During my Steubenville experience, I felt that God would never have a man scream out in anguish FORGIVE ME. It doesn’t seem to represent our God a God of love ( nor did it represent order as he interrupted the Priest who was praying that distractions would leave at the moment). I also don’t understand why there would be an uncontrollable sobbing or laughing. While talking to one of my charismatic friends, they thought that demons had come in and done whatever. Yet this occurred in front of the Eucharist. Another said that it was caused by demons leaving those people. If this were true, then things of this occurrence would happen during the mass often where we actually receive Christ. It didnt even occur during the mass there. It is just weird to some of us the nature of these gifts along with the fact they only occur at protestant services and special meetings.

you might remember that our God of love, lovingly sends people to hell. If a man wants to be forgiven then surely this is actually a GOOD thing.

God gave us our emotions, I personally grew up in a family where the British stiff upper lip was the norm. Close our hearts to anything that God has done, if you are forgiven much you love much. Mary’s gift of the oil and washing Jesus feet was also scorned (for a legitimate reason, the poor do need alms) and yet Jesus accepted it.

There are previous posts that note Catholic Masses where the Priest allows speaking in tongues at certain points, so it doesn’t just happen during Protestant services.

In fact, most Protestants wouldn’t allow the gifts of the Spirit within their services. Anglican, Presbyterian, Baptist etc.

So is the CCC wrong? does it misrepresent the Catholic faith?

 

[john_aurelius]

Grace is first and formost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are *sacramental *graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called *charism *after the greek term used by St. Paul and meaning “favor,” “gratuitous gift,” “benefit.” (cf. LG 12) Whatever their character - **sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues **- charism are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.

CCC 2003

 

[guanophore]

Vardaquinn, we’ve been over this territory before regarding Pope John Paul ll and his personal endorsement of the Charismatic movement.

I must have missed that. Do you think he was out of order?

Is it possible for someone to endorse the charismatic gifts without subscribing to some modern “movement” or “mania”

Thank you for offering the link, but I have no interest in it. I’m a Catholic - a traditional Catholic. I’m not a Charismatic/Pentacostal. One whole half of my family were Pentacostals. The “so-called” manifestations of the Holy Ghost are essentially the same for the Pentacostals as they are for Charismatics. No thanks.

It appears you have developed a prejudice against the charismatic gifts because of the abuses you have seen.

And I’m not a Charismatic. Never will be. If for some reason the Holy Ghost chooses to manifest these gifts to me (which I will NEVER ask for),

This is the danger of overcompensating and overcorrecting in the opposite direction. I can certainly agree with you on the gross abuses and misdirection in the modern Pentecostal movements, but your position is throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

How do you justify such an attitude in the face of the Apostolic instruction to the opposite?

1 Cor 14:1
14:1 Make love your aim, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy.

How can you “earnestly desire” something you have made up your mind you WILL NEVER ASK FOR?

I would go straight to my priest, and do what he advises. My understanding of the Third Person of the Holy Trinity is what the Church has taught for many centuries, which has little to do with the seeking out of “gifts” of the Charismatics. There isn’t anything in tradition to support the intentional seeking out of these “gifts.”

Perhaps you can help me understand these scriptures in another way?

1 Cor 14:4-5
. 5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than he who speaks in tongues, unless some one interprets, so that the church may be edified.

1 Cor 14:26
26 What then, brethren? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.

1 Cor 14:39
39 So, my brethren, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues