Traditionalist and Charismatic

[Heuchler]

John the way this man yelled out, it sounded as if he were begging God to forgive him, as if God wouldnt, even though this man can easily walk over to confession. And lovingly sends to Hell? If that were true Christ would have left us to our fate instead of dying for us. God doesnt send us to Hell we choose to go to Hell through mortal sin (us denying and turning away from God). Back on topic though.
Yes, God did give us our emotions, yet our emotions can easily go against the truth and lead us away from it. I might feel angry at a person but I do not act upon my emotions. We are supposed to ignore how we feel and still love this person. Our emotions can easily be misleading. The devil can work specifically through our emotions to lead us to evil. (I dont understand the reference to Mary and how that relates to everything else)
The tongues part is not included in most masses and only in a couple. My question is this controlled or randomly blurted out. I find that most people (including protestants) can control the gift of tongues at will. However, If anyone hears the laughter/crying in mass wouldnt they wonder whats wrong or are they insane?
Im sorry that most protestants don’t partake in this. I should have specified that most pentacostals do. It seems that most of the laughing and crying which I can’t find produced in the early Church, probably came from an immitation of Pentacostals. The laughing/sobbing does not seem to edify the Church and seems to come from people on an adrenaline rush wanting to feel God. And why did God not show himself to me, a skeptical person who was pretty sure it was fake. Why didn’t the Holy Spirit help me to realize my error and to see the truth. Thats all I was praying for during adoration, that the truth be known whatever it is. If it wasnt the product of the human mind yearning for that to happen, why didn’t I receive it?

 

[guanophore]

I really think you’re on a hiding-to-nothing

I have never heard of that. Is that anything like a “wild goose chase”?

trying to convince traditionalists that Charismaticism has any value. It manifests itself in a way which is just about the polar opposite of what a traditionalist is looking for.

Although I am unclear about what you mean by your term “charismaticism”, I am sure that I have no interest in promoting or participating in it. I am not interested in anything that is “polar opposite” to traditional Catholicism.

The TLM has clung on despite official opposition. It has only been formally announced recently that, hey, it’s not actually forbidden. Give it another 30 years and we’ll see where it goes.

With sufficient prayer and catechesis, we can expect that the remainder of the liturgical abuses will be elimiated so that quality can be restored.

**

Comparing the TLM to Charismatic practices is a non-starter. One’s a rule-based, formal Mass and the other is … whatever is moving the leader of the group at that time, I think.**

what are “charismatic practices”?

Are any of the accounts in the NT “charismatic practices”?

I think lack of proper leadership is the main source of abuses, whether they are liturgical or prayer group practices.

InquisitorMax:

It reminds me of the Medjugorje phenomenon. A group of people say they’re experiencing visions. Pious people flock to them. They pray intensely. Miracles happen. Doesn’t mean the underlying movement is OK. It just means that when pious people get together and pray for and expect miracles, they happen. Not to everybody, not all time, maybe not big ones but enough to keep the crowds coming back.

I am glad that you have not jettisoned the notion that pious people praying with expectant faith can participate in the supernatural.

 

[guanophore]

Charismaticism, which seeks to supposedly manifest the Holy Ghost on cue

Maybe this is part of the answer to my question about the meaning of the term “charismaticism”. I have not heard it before.

What does “on cue” mean?

What does “manifest the Holy Spirit” mean? This sounds similar to something I have heard in a Pentecostal congregation,but I have never heard it used in a Catholic context.

**and how at Medjugorje the Blessed Mother is supposedly called up on cue, too. Both **movements rely on spiritual experiences and phenomena.

Can you help me understand “calling up the Blessed Mother on cue”? How is that different than how we call upon her in the Rosary ?

I agree with you that any “movement” that relies upon spiritual experiences and phenomenon has a flawed base.

 

[john_aurelius]

John the way this man yelled out, it sounded as if he were begging God to forgive him, as if God wouldnt, even though this man can easily walk over to confession. And lovingly sends to Hell? If that were true Christ would have left us to our fate instead of dying for us. God doesnt send us to Hell we choose to go to Hell through mortal sin (us denying and turning away from God). Back on topic though.
Yes, God did give us our emotions, yet our emotions can easily go against the truth and lead us away from it. I might feel angry at a person but I do not act upon my emotions. We are supposed to ignore how we feel and still love this person. Our emotions can easily be misleading. The devil can work specifically through our emotions to lead us to evil. (I dont understand the reference to Mary and how that relates to everything else)
The tongues part is not included in most masses and only in a couple. My question is this controlled or randomly blurted out. I find that most people (including protestants) can control the gift of tongues at will. However, If anyone hears the laughter/crying in mass wouldnt they wonder whats wrong or are they insane?
Im sorry that most protestants don’t partake in this. I should have specified that most pentacostals do. It seems that most of the laughing and crying which I can’t find produced in the early Church, probably came from an immitation of Pentacostals. The laughing/sobbing does not seem to edify the Church and seems to come from people on an adrenaline rush wanting to feel God. And why did God not show himself to me, a skeptical person who was pretty sure it was fake. Why didn’t the Holy Spirit help me to realize my error and to see the truth. Thats all I was praying for during adoration, that the truth be known whatever it is. If it wasnt the product of the human mind yearning for that to happen, why didn’t I receive it?

God, the Holy Spirit does things as He wills, which is I think something that Jesus also refered to. If the H.S. asnwered you, how would you know it? Perhaps this forum and thread in particular is apart of God answering your questions through His divine providence.

You call yourself a skeptical person and are pretty sure that it was fake. Perhaps you have closed yourself off to the H.S. as I said before our natural self wars against God.

You haven’t responded to my question about whether the CCC is misrepresenting Catholicism. Do our Popes misrepresent Catholicism?

Yes, the guy can go to confession, and yes our God does send people to hell. At the moment his wrath remains on people who do not believe in Jesus.

It sounds more like you were watching the people around you than praying for your relationship with God. Why should you judge their love and devotion?

As I said, Mary Magdelene did something which was considered outrageous yet it was acceptable to Jesus our Lord. He probably accepts their devotion at least as much as your skepticism.

 

[Solemn_Sheep]

If you’d read the thread in context, the person I was disagreeing with had said that there were no longer** any**Holy Spirit inspired tongues.

I have read the thread and went back to see if I have missed anything. I was not able to find the post were the above accusation was stated…

This is in disagreement with Scripture, Chruch Tradition, the recent Popes and the CCC 2003.

Therefore I see it as attacking the work of the Holy Spirit.

I havent seen anything that has shown that people are attacking the work of the Holy Spirit by not approving of the Charistamtic Renewal. When I read the 1 Corinthians 14, I personally cannot reconcile it with whats going on in the Charismatic Renewal.

I have not met the American Charismatics which he so dislikes but I can tell you that they are under the supervision of their bishops, priests and spiritual directors just as any Catholic is.

Sadly even under the supervison of superiors bad things can and do happen.

What tactic is that? Sorry, elusive historical statements of your own nation are not Catholic teaching… Are you saying I’m treating non-charismatic catholics as if they were communist? hardly. I have no problem with either Latin or the Latin Mass. I prefer the OF but that is irrelevant.

The tatic of Catholics claiming that other Catholics are going against the Holy Spirit when they question something that is not dogmatic or a group within the Catholic Church which has very protestant undertones. People think because it pulls in converts then its good or necessary but are they asking what type of converts its pulling in? Are they Christians that are coming over to be Catholic or are they Christians coming over because the Catholic Church has become Protestant enough for them to join without feeling a conflict of interest?

Is all prophecy, tongues, miracles, and casting out devils the work of those inspiried or filled with the Holy Spirit?

We are living in dangerous times.

"Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity"–7:23

 

[guanophore]

Well actually there is obvious proof that those in the charismatic movement are definitely manifesting something.  Whether or not these gifts are indeed genuine is I feel the major stumbling block.  I for one am not at all sure ALL manifestations are real and in fact I think a lot, maybe the majority are either totally faked by those manifesting them or they enter into a state of ecstacy  similar to that of Voodoo Priests and Shamans of various cultures, or the manifestations are demonically influenced.

Do you think there is any reliable way to discern the truth about these matters?

Those in the Charismatic Movement tend to play down those obvious dangers as being either insignificant or non existent. I cannot agree with that assesment.

I don’t agree with your assessment. This is a sweeping generalization that does not describe my experience at all. In fact, I have never met anyone in charismatic circles that takes any of these abuses or destructive forces as insignificant.

But I suppose it is likely tha you have associated with those that support such a prejudice. That being the case, do you think there is any way to have an authentic expression of charismatic gifts that does take the dangers seriously?

There is also a complete and total difference in manifesting the Gifts of the Holy Spirit and being a member of the Charismatic Movement.

I am so relieved to meet someone on this thread that recognizes this! It seems to me that many traditionlists conflate the two, and equate the authentic use of gifts with some kind of “movement” (I am not even sure what it means).

The movement itself is totally different from manifesting these gifts and many if the not the majority of people that do are not part of the movement.

I think understanding this would probably go a long way toward promoting health in the Church.

To me it is also telling that those in the movement sem to be able to call down the Holy Spirit amost at will, often to speak in tongues to the exclusion of amost everything else.

Can you help me understand this phrase “calling down the HS at will”? I have read it several times on this thread, but it does not make sense to me.

Having had the regrettable oporutnity of actually attending several of these, I don’t really know what to call them, gatherings? perhaps, I can tell you, there was a lot of pressure put on a lot of the people to get with the program, including exhortations from the Priest and various lay people assisting him that people had to try harder …

Try harder to do what? Pray?

It seems that the saints have shown us that the best prayer happens when our “try” is not in the way!

I was under the impression that the Holy Spirit went where He wanted, when He wanted and affected who He wanted. I was unaware that he was at the beck and call of the movement.

I am still unclear what the “movement” means. I am quite certain, though, that God is not at the beck and call of anything of human origin.

How is what you are describing different from asking for the HS?

Luke 11:9-13
9 And I tell you, Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10 For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 11 What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent; 12 or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"

It seems that some on this thread will not even as, knock, or seek, lest they be found in some kind of uncatholic “movement”.

I have also noticed that there seems to be almost total acceptance of the statement that Pope John Paul II prayed in tongues. I would like someone to point me to an authoritative document, not a statement written by one with an obvious agenda, ie: Ralph Martin, which affirms that statement. I have little doubt that Pope John Paul II was familiar with the charisms of the Holy Spirit and that he endorsed the movement, with LIMITATIONS.is a documented fact.

That however, is a long long way from saying the he was a charismatic or a member of the movement himself.

What if he did pray in tongues? Would that make him part of this “movement” everyone here is referring to?

The Mageterial instruction is sufficient for me.

The passages from St. Paul seem to support this practice.

 

[john_aurelius]

What a shame there is such a barrier between these two movements, but I guess its not too suprising seeing how we tend to ostracise those different from ourselves.

The Traditionalists should recognise that they are no longer the mainstream of Catholicism, the EF is extraordinary, and many people that follow that path are no longer in communion with the Pope (such as the SSPX) and have invalid sacraments such as confession.

Charismatics pray in tongues that are generally not ‘real’ tongues. some have suggested that this invalidates them as Peter was understood by those present. Yet the gifts that Charismatics advocate are found in 1 Cor 12-14 and needs an interpretation to be edifying (1 Cor 14:13) so it cannot be the same thing as Peter.

Futher, singing in the Spirit as opposed to the mind (1 C 14:15) is unheard of in Acts and had no place in the evangelisation Peter was performing.

I agree that a Charismatic should be able to control themselves and the liturgy of Charismatics ought to do more to do things in order (14:26-27)

This was so off putting for many Corinthians Paul had to write the world’s best known poem in praise of love (1 Cor 13)

Both movements ought to practise this most of all, love one another as I have loved you…:hug1:

dont quote me out of context either:thumbsup:

 

[john_aurelius]

‘Charismatic gifts are not to be rashly sought after’. That’s good advice. It’s the same as what you get from more sober non-Christian religious, like Sufis. I understand you can get powers before you have been cleansed of egotism. This can result in serious problems.

The other quotes could just as easily have referred to any religious movement. Of course we want the Holy Spirit in our lives. It’s just that I think that showy emotionalism, especially in the context of a Mass, is not right.

What use is babbling, being slain in the spirit etc.? It’s just like what kids do a rock concerts. It’s catharsis, I suppose, but I don’t think you’ll be holier as a result.

What I want is greater sobriety and peace of mind. I’ve dipped my toe into seeking-after-power. The effects are not good.

 

[john_aurelius]

No. In the Catholic Church it’s a very new phenomenon.

I first encountered it, as child, the late 70’s, in a nun who said she was keen on it. She was a bit … soppy … in how she spoke about it. A little strange. Which was like garlic to a vampire, in my case.

 

[guanophore]

I personally do not like the whole wwjd saying since that type of thinking resembles the same type of thinking Christians had when they invented sola scriptura.  Jesus' actions are perfect and therefore can never be said to be what we sinners would do.

I think you have it backwards, Solemn. It is we who need to consider how we would conform ourselves to his perfect actions.

 

[john_aurelius]

I was guessing this phenomenon began in Protestantism about 200 years ago. I find it funny that people equate things like** babbling**, being ‘slain in the spirit’ and singing rousing hymns to what happened to the Apostles.

They became impressive men of power. If this was seriously happening in Charismatic circles the Catholic Church would have taken over the world since the 60’s, I think.

I am concerned that naive people are falling for an old trick: give the audience permission to express themselves. It just looks … odd.

 

[john_aurelius]

There are non-Catholic masses:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_%28liturgy%29

If a Catholic Mass is a re-enactment of the Sacrifice of Calvary and a commemoration of the Last Supper of Christ on Earth, then hullaballo and dancing is entirely appropriate. Not.

The theatrics begin to overshadow the event. I suppose it’s an extension of ‘Have a mass anywhere’ which seemed to be popular in the 70’s/80’s: “We’d better jazz up our worship, otherwise a) People might apostasise and b) If we become more like Protestants, they might join us.”

Is it working, yet?

The only big conversion I recall is the Ordinariate by Pope Benedict. And that was of Protestants seeking greater rigour.

There have been, of course, saintly people who have had spiritual powers as a byproduct of their spiritual advancement. Charismatics look to me like they are deliberately seeking out phenomena. Which is spiritually dangerous.

Then there’s the 'I’d better ape the others" angle, which people do in any social group.

Also, if you read about bogus private revelations, you’ll find plenty of phenomena. It’s there if you want it. It’s just not, in itself, Godly.

 

[john_aurelius]

Solemn Sheep, I trust that these posts are enough context to show that the poster did not believe in any tongues rather than determining whether individuals are demonstrating true tongues or false.

 

[guanophore]

Actually, I think the movement itself has become somewhat cultish, self protective and suspicious of those who haven’t as yet received the wonderful gifts that they have and who do not agree 100% with their position. Just as I am sad to say some Traditionalists have done.

People with an agenda, and Ralph Martin definitely has one, will often exagerrate and sometimes outright lie to try to gain support for their cause. As I said if someone could point me to an authoratative document in which Pope John Paul II himself said that he prayed in tongues then I would believe it. As it is, we have a few references of people who claim it happened or who claim that they know someone who saw it happen, etc. etc. So quite frankly, I don’t believe it happened.

What is Ralph Martin’s “agenda”?

Do you think Fr. Cantelamesa is lying also?

 

[john_aurelius]

I havent seen anything that has shown that people are attacking the work of the Holy Spirit by not approving of the Charistamtic Renewal. When I read the 1 Corinthians 14, I personally cannot reconcile it with whats going on in the Charismatic Renewal.

So your not going to touch Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Eusebius, The Popes Paul Vi, Bl. JP2, Benedict XVI or the CCC 2003?
Sadly even under the supervison of superiors bad things can and do happen.

So the whole church is in question? We are all under these things…

The tatic of Catholics claiming that other Catholics are going against the Holy Spirit when they question something that is not dogmatic or a group within the Catholic Church which has very protestant undertones. People think because it pulls in converts then its good or necessary but are they asking what type of converts its pulling in? Are they Christians that are coming over to be Catholic or are they Christians coming over because the Catholic Church has become Protestant enough for them to join without feeling a conflict of interest?

I didn’t say going against the H.S., If anything this is what the Traditionalists are doing, I have always maintained they are true Christians. It is for God to justify and sanctify those he has bought with his blood.

Is all prophecy, tongues, miracles, and casting out devils the work of those inspiried or filled with the Holy Spirit?

We are living in dangerous times.

"Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity"–7:23

So we should dismiss all the miracles and visions of the Church?

 

[Gregory_I]

“Do our Popes misrepresent Catholicism?”

Many have. Liberius and Honorius come to mind… and how about the whole “pornocracy” of the 10th Century, as well as Pope Alexander VI, the only Pope whose gravestone implores God to not allow him into heaven?

Epitaph to Pope Alexander

“Who sacrificed quiet to hatred, with a warrior heart,
who did not stop at quarrels, struggles and slaughters,
is lying here in the coffin for all people to rejoice,
thy supreme pontiff Alexander, oh, capital Rome.
Thou, prelates of Erebus and Heaven, close thy doors
and prohibit the Soul from entering thy sites.
He would disrupt the peace of Styx and disturb Avernus,
and vanquish the Saints, if he enters the sphere of stars.”

 

[john_aurelius]

Many have. Liberius and Honorius come to mind… and how about the whole “pornocracy” of the 10th Century, as well as Pope Alexander VI, the only Pope whose gravestone implores God to not allow him into heaven?

Epitaph to Pope Alexander

“Who sacrificed quiet to hatred, with a warrior heart,
who did not stop at quarrels, struggles and slaughters,
is lying here in the coffin for all people to rejoice,
thy supreme pontiff Alexander, oh, capital Rome.
Thou, prelates of Erebus and Heaven, close thy doors
and prohibit the Soul from entering thy sites.
He would disrupt the peace of Styx and disturb Avernus,
and vanquish the Saints, if he enters the sphere of stars.”

Ok, let me rephrase.

Did the Blessed Pope John Paul II misrepresent the church?

What about Paul VI and Benedict XVI do they?

And still no ones commented on the CCC 2003 quote, does it misrepresent Catholicism as well?

 

[InquisitorMax]

Hee hee, the whole point about ‘tongues’ in the Bible is that the people who heard them understood what they were saying.

 

[john_aurelius]

Hee hee, the whole point about ‘tongues’ in the Bible is that the people who heard them understood what they were saying.

In Acts 2 that is the case but not in the church at Corinth because, “one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God; **for no one understands **but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.” 1 Cor 14: 2

 

[Heuchler]

John, the Holy Spirit, as you pointed out, does things as He wills. When the Apostles were in the upper room afraid the Holy Spirit didn’t wait for their fears and doubts to leave, it came and spread the truth. And the way the Catechism was phrasing its response it seemed to be mentioning miracles and tongues (supernatural acts) more than laughter, sobbing, and resting in the spirit which is what I don’t believe is from God. Yes, tongues have occurred but I believe that at this time it is hard to find a true case and tell the difference between the real and fake. Miracles do occur but they are very rare. The Church doesn’t apporve miracles all the time because God works through nature and order and only uses signs and miracles in rare cases.
I know that most chrarismatics arent faking it. I do not question their sincerity. Its just that our minds are powerful and can easily cause us to do crazy things. This is why hypnotism works.
And Mary Magdalene used the oil to help Jesus. It was an act of charity not an uncontrollable emotion. And as the Bible itself said, Judas only made his comment because he was a thief who stole the contributions to the poor.
Could you please also tell me where the gifts such as laughing and resting in the spirit came from since I dont see any references in the early Church and can only see it in Pentacostalism.