Traditionalist Methodist denomination in the works

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commenter said:
Congregations may take their property, but what about seminaries, mission boards, diocesan and central office properties and trust funds? Does all that stay with the UMC, along with the “brand”?
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The UMC doesn’t have dioceses. It has annual conferences, jurisdictions and (outside the US) central conferences. My understanding is that individual conferences would be able to vote to leave. When it comes to the general boards and agencies of the denomination, those would stay with the UMC.

When it comes to colleges, seminaries and universities, I’m not sure how much the UMC actually owns these as opposed to them simply being affiliated with the UMC. In any case, if the UMC owned these assets, they would stay with the UMC.

The conservatives would have to start over, but that’s not a big deal. The UMC seminaries are liberal anyway. There maybe like one that is conservative. In any case, a lot of evangelical UMC ministers get their seminary training at Asbury Theological Seminary, which is not a UMC seminary but an independent, evangelical school.
 
The burden of proof for any unit is always against making a major change. Thus the UMC will likely retain both the liberal, and also moderate or split congregations and annual conferences and their property, along with the UMC “Name”.

If this is the settlement after the liberals’ defeat at the last convention, what would a liberal victory look like?
 
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Thorolfr said:
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Welshrabbit:
I was a Methodist for the vast majority of my life and it wasn’t until I became a Catholic that I learned the Methodists believe in a form of the Real Presence.

Go figure…🤷‍♂️
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Lutherans, like Methodists, also believe in the Real Presence. But neither believes in transubstantiation. Methodists also practice open Communion (as do some denominations of Lutherans) meaning that all present at worship are invited to partake. They also usually do Communion only once a month.
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How is the Real Presence achieved if they don’t believe in transubstantiation?
 
HomeschoolDad said:
apparently because Methodism is historically an offshoot from Anglicanism.
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roughly, Wesley was an anglican priest in North America, and when England wouldn’t send enough priests, he took it upon himself to “ordain” ore himself . . .
gracepoole said:
How is the Real Presence achieved if they don’t believe in transubstantiation?
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There’s consubstantiation, there’s simple “He said he’ll be there, so he is”, and probably more.
 
ltwin said:
Catholics may not catch this, but
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This is true on many levels, not just the theological difference you pointed out. We often see individuals leaving a parish or the Church itself. We have rarely been in a situation where a parish, or a diocese, leaves.

Of course our theological or ecclesial unfamiliarity doesn’t stop us from posting on the internet.
 
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commenter said:
This is true on many levels, not just the theological difference you pointed out. We often see individuals leaving a parish or the Church itself. We have rarely been in a situation where a parish, or a diocese, leaves.
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It’s also worth pointing out that the UMC as an institution is not that old. “United Methodism” has only existed since 1968 when the mainly Anglo-American “Methodist Church” merged with the “Evangelical United Brethren Church” (a pietistic church with German immigrant origins) to bring the English-speaking and German-speaking Methodist traditions together. Before that, the “Methodist Church” itself had been divided between northern “Methodist Episcopal Church” and the “Methodist Episcopal Church, South”, which was a regional division going back to the Civil War when Methodists split over the morality of slavery.
 
gracepoole said:
How is the Real Presence achieved if they don’t believe in transubstantiation?
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From the Lutheran perspective, by the power of the Holy Spirit at the speaking verba by the pastor. Beyond Christ’s words, it is an incomprehensible miracle.
 
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Interesting that the Methodists in America split over slavery, in the UK they were always strongly opposed and many would not buy sugar because slave labour was involved. My home town, in the far west of Cornwall, was, until recently, strongly Methodist, and still today, because of the history of slavery, there are Methodists and members of other similar denominations who will not have sugar in their tea because of slavery.
 
I realize that this is the non-Catholic religions thread. However, as this is a Catholic forum, I would be amiss if I did not take this opportunity to evangelize, given that I am a member of the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter, whose role as given to us by Popes Benedict XVI and Francis is to evangelize, in particular those coming in from the Anglican traditions and those whose churches and communities derive from the same (Wesley’s hymns are popular at the two ordinariate parishes I attended, replete with the organ).

Consequently, as an individual member of the Catholic Church and the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter (I do not work for either the chancery or any Roman dicastery, so I speak for myself), it is my great delight to invite any faithful Christian from the United Methodist Church to discern whether or not the King is calling you into full communion with His Holy Catholic Church, regardless of whether or not the UMC ultimately splits. Any Methodist who joins, provided s/he has not formally transferred from the Latin Church sui juris to an Eastern Catholic one, may choose to join the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter at another time if s/he discerns this is His Divine Majesty the King’s will and is living in this ordinariate’s jurisdiction, even if s/he is not confirmed through an ordinariate parish.
 
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I do not know where you live, but I am an ordinariate member.

It is helpful to know that there are other ordinariate members and supporters on Catholic Answers Forums, so that if there ever comes a chance to organize something, then we can work together.
 
commenter said:
“Leaders of the church announced Friday they had agreed to spin off a “traditionalist Methodist” denomination, which would continue to oppose same-sex marriage and to refuse ordination to LGBT clergy, while allowing the remaining portion of the United Methodist Church to permit same-sex marriage and LGBT clergy”

It doesn’t sound like a split, it sounds like the conservatives surrendered. It seems to say gay marriage and unchaste gay pastors is moral, but not everyone is ready for it yet .

For awhile, gay marriage and pastors will be allowed, but only by way of exception or local option. Later, they will demand and get equal status. The next step is that a few congregations will be allowed to temporarily resist it but only under their roof.

Perhaps they will allow a few flying bishops to minister to the anti gay marriage holdouts since every diocese will be mandated “on board” with the program.

I don’t need to tell you what the final stage will be.
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This is sounding a lot like the way Protestants came to accept contraception, divorce, and even for some of them, abortion. 100-150 years ago, Catholic and Protestant morality were virtually identical. Now, in some ways (particularly where sexuality and reproduction is involved), they couldn’t be more different.
ltwin said:
Catholics may not catch this, but liberal Protestants don’t believe in Sola Scriptura. They believe that the Bible is a book. The real rule of faith is the person of Jesus. The Bible is only one way to know Jesus and his teaching. Another is learning about the “historical Jesus”, cuz you know not everything in the Bible is correct. So, you don’t have Scripture as an infallible authority in and of itself. You have alternative sources of authority (Jesus as distinct from Scripture) that humans grasp by use of reason and experience.
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Never heard this before. This explains a lot.
gracepoole said:
How is the Real Presence achieved if they don’t believe in transubstantiation?
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I’m not quite sure I follow the upshot of your question, so I’ll answer each of the two ways it could be read:
  • They do not, in fact, have the Real Presence, because they lack apostolic succession and valid orders. They think they do, but in actual point of fact, they do not. This is meant as no offense to Lutherans or Methodists, it is just the traditional Catholic dogmatic point of view. Whether Our Lord dispenses any graces at all in the context of their sacrament, no one can say. He may recognize their sincerity and goodness of intention, and while He would not become “really present”, He might give them certain graces to nourish their souls, despite the fact they are in error. Only He can say.
  • While transubstantiation is the Catholic explanation of how Our Lord is really present, it may not be the “full story” of what takes place. It is the greatest of mysteries. Neither Orthodox (who do have the Real Presence) nor Anglicans (who do not have it, but believe they do) attempt to explain it — they just accept it.
 
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JonNC said:
From the Lutheran perspective, by the power of the Holy Spirit at the speaking verba by the pastor. Beyond Christ’s words, it is an incomprehensible miracle.
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What is “the speaking verba”? I’ve never heard the word “verba” before.
 
Hi,
I’m in the Albany, NY diocese. I have no connections to the Anglican world and am not an ordinariate member. I just would like to see more opportunities for reverent Masses, and I think that the beauty of the divine worship missal could bring many (back) into the Church.
 
Verba would be the plural of verbum, meaning “word” (it also means “verb”, but “word” is what it likely means in this context). I’m assuming that he’s referring to the Lutheran equivalent of a consecratory prayer.
 
Fuerza said:
Hi,
I’m in the Albany, NY diocese. I have no connections to the Anglican world and am not an ordinariate member. I just would like to see more opportunities for reverent Masses, and I think that the beauty of the divine worship missal could bring many (back) into the Church.
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Hello Fuerza,

In addition to DWM, I also attend Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgies and Qurbonos - chiefly Ruthenian Byzantine and Maronite - as well as the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite. Here and there, I will also find a beautiful Ordinary Form in Latin (I spent the last year in Houston, TX and am seeking to return there).
 
We used to have a beautiful Latin OF in my diocese, but the only priest who offered it retired and then subsequently passed away. Though we have a growing number of priests offering the EF who are proficient in Latin, none have so far taken up the torch to offer the Latin OF. We have a few Eastern Catholic parishes in my area (mostly Ukrainian with one Maronite), but I haven’t gotten up the initiative to go. I like to blend into the background, and I know that I would stand out like a sore thumb in an EC parish. I think an ordinariate parish would round off the available options nicely, though I’m not sure if the UMC parishes in the area fall into the traditional or progressive camps. I guess we’ll have to see if this thing happens in order to find out.
 
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