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lak611
Guest
Does this mean that American Catholics must follow only American Bishops? Is there any translation in English that is approved for the universal Church, not just a particular country?
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ddeluna
Guest
It only means that American Catholic CLERGY and RELIGEOUS - anyway, all those REQUIRED by either Canon law or their vows to pray the hours, may use only that which is approved by the U.S. Bishops to meet that requirement. Anything other than that which is approved for use by the U.S. Bishops is not praying the officially approved LOTH.
As non-clergy we can pray whatever we want, but unless it’s what the Bishops have approved it can’t be accurately referred to as praying the official prayer of the Church (in the U.S.).
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lak611
Guest
Ok. That makes sense. I dislike the US Divine Office just as I dislike the NAB.
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Caesar
Guest
After Vatican II the Divine Office was suffered a major overhaul. The Offices, which used to correspond to the Twelve Canonical Hours, were completely changed, some removed altogather.
The Divine Office used by traditional priests is the 1961 Breviarium Romanum with the Clementine Psalter. You can buy it here- pcpbooks.com/new_books_pages/breviarium_romanum.htm
The Divine Office used by traditional priests is the 1961 Breviarium Romanum with the Clementine Psalter. You can buy it here- pcpbooks.com/new_books_pages/breviarium_romanum.htm
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Caesar
Guest
The link I posted above is for a Breviary that contained the Divine Office in Latin only. Baronius Press is currently working on an English-Latin Breviary due for publication in early 2008.
In the middle ages a simple form of the Divine Office, focusing on Our Lady, was used by the faithful. Lay people would flock to churches to hear the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin sung. Baronius recently published the single-volume edition- baroniuspress.com/book.php?wid=56&bid=47
In the middle ages a simple form of the Divine Office, focusing on Our Lady, was used by the faithful. Lay people would flock to churches to hear the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin sung. Baronius recently published the single-volume edition- baroniuspress.com/book.php?wid=56&bid=47
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lak611
Guest
That is good news!
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otjm
Guest
I am not sure if you have had your questions answered, so let me give it a shot.
If I were you, I would purchase the Shorter Christian Prayer; I believe there is a guide for using it (I know there is a guide for the larger one volume Christian Prayer and for the 4 volume set).
If you can find it in your schedule, try to say Lauds before going to work - about 15 minutes of time - and Vespers after work. Do not worry about exactly what time you say them; it is prayer, and while officially they have certain time slots, the issue is praying, not fitting your day into a time slot that is impossible.
If you can add to that, Compline, or Night Prayer is a great way to end the day.
It can be helpful (and what I miss most) to say it “in community”; that is with others - one or more. Not critical, but it is a community prayer.
After you have become comfortable with saying it, and regular, you can branch out to either the 1 volume set, or look into other variations. The most important part is learning how to say it, and learning to do so regularly. It is pointless to spend a lot of money on something that becomes more confusing than what you already have. That is much more likely to lead to not saying it at all, and that, rapidly. Frustration has a tendency to cause most people to find something they can accomplish, rather than continue to persue something they can’t.
For all the criticism of the current translation, let me put it in plain
English: praying the current translation is a lot better spiritually than not praying it at all.
And unless you are very good at Latin, I simply would not go there at all at this time.
God is not going to get mad at you if you are doing your very best; if you don’t get everything exactly in its place, He isn’t going to zap you. Learning takes time; when you are doing it on your own, it takes more time. Worry less about getting it exactly right, and spend more time reflecting on what you are reading. You will do fine.
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ddeluna
Guest
Amen. Well said. Good advice.
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Hipster_Doofus
Guest
*I am not sure if you have had your questions answered, so let me give it a shot.
[Actually, I’m probably more confused now than when I asked the initial questions.]
**
If I were you, I would purchase the Shorter Christian Prayer; I believe there is a guide for using it (I know there is a guide for the larger one volume Christian Prayer and for the 4 volume set).
**
[Actually, I have this and have been using it a few years now, though I still am unclear if I’m doing it correctly.]*
*If you can find it in your schedule, try to say Lauds before going to work - about 15 minutes of time - and Vespers after work. Do not worry about exactly what time you say them; it is prayer, and while officially they have certain time slots, the issue is praying, not fitting your day into a time slot that is impossible.
If you can add to that, Compline, or Night Prayer is a great way to end the day.*
It can be helpful (and what I miss most) to say it “in community”; that is with others - one or more. Not critical, but it is a community prayer.
**[Well, I don’t have a community per se. I don’t see my friends often, or anybody else for that matter, and the people at church are just strangers.]
**
After you have become comfortable with saying it, and regular, you can branch out to either the 1 volume set, or look into other variations. The most important part is learning how to say it, and learning to do so regularly. It is pointless to spend a lot of money on something that becomes more confusing than what you already have. That is much more likely to lead to not saying it at all, and that, rapidly. Frustration has a tendency to cause most people to find something they can accomplish, rather than continue to persue something they can’t.
*For all the criticism of the current translation, let me put it in plain
English: praying the current translation is a lot better spiritually than not praying it at all.
And unless you are very good at Latin, I simply would not go there at all at this time.
God is not going to get mad at you if you are doing your very best; if you don’t get everything exactly in its place, He isn’t going to zap you. Learning takes time; when you are doing it on your own, it takes more time. Worry less about getting it exactly right, and spend more time reflecting on what you are reading. You will do fine.*
[Actually, I’m probably more confused now than when I asked the initial questions.]
**
If I were you, I would purchase the Shorter Christian Prayer; I believe there is a guide for using it (I know there is a guide for the larger one volume Christian Prayer and for the 4 volume set).
**
[Actually, I have this and have been using it a few years now, though I still am unclear if I’m doing it correctly.]*
*If you can find it in your schedule, try to say Lauds before going to work - about 15 minutes of time - and Vespers after work. Do not worry about exactly what time you say them; it is prayer, and while officially they have certain time slots, the issue is praying, not fitting your day into a time slot that is impossible.
If you can add to that, Compline, or Night Prayer is a great way to end the day.*
It can be helpful (and what I miss most) to say it “in community”; that is with others - one or more. Not critical, but it is a community prayer.
**[Well, I don’t have a community per se. I don’t see my friends often, or anybody else for that matter, and the people at church are just strangers.]
**
After you have become comfortable with saying it, and regular, you can branch out to either the 1 volume set, or look into other variations. The most important part is learning how to say it, and learning to do so regularly. It is pointless to spend a lot of money on something that becomes more confusing than what you already have. That is much more likely to lead to not saying it at all, and that, rapidly. Frustration has a tendency to cause most people to find something they can accomplish, rather than continue to persue something they can’t.
*For all the criticism of the current translation, let me put it in plain
English: praying the current translation is a lot better spiritually than not praying it at all.
And unless you are very good at Latin, I simply would not go there at all at this time.
God is not going to get mad at you if you are doing your very best; if you don’t get everything exactly in its place, He isn’t going to zap you. Learning takes time; when you are doing it on your own, it takes more time. Worry less about getting it exactly right, and spend more time reflecting on what you are reading. You will do fine.*
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ElizabethPH
Guest
I don’t have any books but use the Internet. I think you can find guides on line as well. Sometimes I read that it’s not hard to figure out the books; and other times, like you I’m confused as ever. Especially when Latin is mentioned; are we supposed to learn the prayers in Latin?
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otjm
Guest
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otjm
Guest
The Office is so extensive that one could not “learn it in Latin”, I think - that is, memorize it in Latin. And there is no requirement that we say it in Latin.
Saying it in Latin, if one is to do more than say words that one doesn’t understand, requires learning a good deal of Latin. There is absolutley nothing wrong with learing Latin, but most people have neither the time nor the inclination. And as for the laity, there is no rule or requirement that we learn Latin or say the Office in Latin.
Form does not trump substance.
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Hipster_Doofus
Guest
*Uh, no. The people in church are not strangers, they are fellow members of the Body of Christ, and as such are family. Sorry, I’ll try not to rant, but it drives me a little short of whacky when I hear this. You may not be familiar with them, but are you waiting for them to introduce themselves?
I’ve never been to New York (and with no intention of insulting anyone) but I have heard they are not particularly friendly or outgoing. Having said that, I have never in my life been to a church where someone didn’t say “hello”, or respond to me when I said it. There is only one way to get past the “strangers” bit and that is to meet them. I assume you go to a parish regularly. I would hazard a guess there are a number of things going on in the parish that would allow you to pick at least one to join and be involved in (and interestingly, as I understand the Catholic faith, it doesn’t stop at the door of the church as we leave). That is an excellent way to meet people and get to know them beyond “hello” or a head nod.*
**Well, OTJM, I’ve become increasingly anti-social in recent years, possibly due to my mental illness, but while I realize we’re all supposed to be considered part of “the community of believers” and so forth, I just don’t experience it that way. I would feel no different in a church with just me and a priest than I would in a church full of hundreds of other worshipers. Other people really don’t register with me, unless they’re screaming babies. The presence of people there in church neither bothers nor pleases me, they neither add to nor detract from the experience. The same goes for the general public. I just get nothing out of their being around.
As for considering other worshipers “strangers,” well, I don’t expect they’d lend me money to tide me over to the end of the month or drive me to the emergency room or bail me out of jail, the way friends would. Sure, maybe they’d do this if I got to know them, but I just don’t feel up to it right now.
I’m in an odd demographic–mid-40s, never married, under-employed. I feel nothing in common with people my age, and would seem an oddball to younger folks. And I don’t really like meetings and hate small talk. I mostly prefer my own company.
And now back to discussing the LOTH…
**
I’ve never been to New York (and with no intention of insulting anyone) but I have heard they are not particularly friendly or outgoing. Having said that, I have never in my life been to a church where someone didn’t say “hello”, or respond to me when I said it. There is only one way to get past the “strangers” bit and that is to meet them. I assume you go to a parish regularly. I would hazard a guess there are a number of things going on in the parish that would allow you to pick at least one to join and be involved in (and interestingly, as I understand the Catholic faith, it doesn’t stop at the door of the church as we leave). That is an excellent way to meet people and get to know them beyond “hello” or a head nod.*
**Well, OTJM, I’ve become increasingly anti-social in recent years, possibly due to my mental illness, but while I realize we’re all supposed to be considered part of “the community of believers” and so forth, I just don’t experience it that way. I would feel no different in a church with just me and a priest than I would in a church full of hundreds of other worshipers. Other people really don’t register with me, unless they’re screaming babies. The presence of people there in church neither bothers nor pleases me, they neither add to nor detract from the experience. The same goes for the general public. I just get nothing out of their being around.
As for considering other worshipers “strangers,” well, I don’t expect they’d lend me money to tide me over to the end of the month or drive me to the emergency room or bail me out of jail, the way friends would. Sure, maybe they’d do this if I got to know them, but I just don’t feel up to it right now.
I’m in an odd demographic–mid-40s, never married, under-employed. I feel nothing in common with people my age, and would seem an oddball to younger folks. And I don’t really like meetings and hate small talk. I mostly prefer my own company.
And now back to discussing the LOTH…
**
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ddeluna
Guest
Take a look at this eBay auction, as it’s the most commonly used edition in use and comes with the DODOS book. Between the two books, you’re all set!Okay, now I’m more confused than ever.
So I’m still at Square One, not knowing which version to get or how to use it once I do. If, say, I bought an older version of the LOTH online, where would I find a guide for using it?
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PKinsale
Guest
Two folks above mentioned that a US layperson praying the version authorized by the UK version is not “praying with the Church.” Can you back that up, I ask politely? I do not understand why, if it is an translation approved by a conference of bishops and the Vatican? I’m just curious if it is a matter of canon law or something, or what the exact difference is (fewer graces received?).
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Windmill
Guest
“Praying with the Church” is a point that needs to be understood in the light of Catholic belief.
It is not limited to merely those in your immediate vicinity. It is in communion with the Catholics all over the globe and the saints that have gone before us, as well. That’s why a priest who is saying a private Mass addresses a crowd as if it were physically present - he’s addressing the saints, and the entire Church is present at that celebration.
When it comes to the Hours, we should not limit ourselves to those who are praying in our vicinity, nor those who are praying the exact same translation we are. They are just translations of the Latin originals. Nor, I should add, are we praying in isolation from those saints who have prayed the Office in generations past. It is a whole event that we are joining ourselves to.
It is not limited to merely those in your immediate vicinity. It is in communion with the Catholics all over the globe and the saints that have gone before us, as well. That’s why a priest who is saying a private Mass addresses a crowd as if it were physically present - he’s addressing the saints, and the entire Church is present at that celebration.
When it comes to the Hours, we should not limit ourselves to those who are praying in our vicinity, nor those who are praying the exact same translation we are. They are just translations of the Latin originals. Nor, I should add, are we praying in isolation from those saints who have prayed the Office in generations past. It is a whole event that we are joining ourselves to.
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thecoach
Guest
Thank you! There seems to be a bent here to pile drive those who arent of the traditionalist bent as almost heretical, yet they seem to be more than willing to be disobedient when it suits them.
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Windmill
Guest
There are many avenues in our faith when it comes to private spirituality. That’s what makes it such a rich faith.
I am curious who is being disobedient, and how?
I am curious who is being disobedient, and how?
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otjm
Guest
I don’t know that I would say that anyone is being particularly disobedient in a matter that comes down in many ways to a personal spirituality.
On the other hand, if it is not a matter of personal spirituality, but a ,atter of an official liturgical act, then perhaps the issue could be framed otherwise.
If I am at a Benedictine abbey, I would presume that I would pray the Hours as they do; and their Hours are a bit different in structure than is the LOTH for the US. and if I was a Benedictine, then, I should pray the Office according to their rule, and not presume to go off by myself and use the LOTH per the US.
If I were to pray the LOTH in community in the US, then it would make sense, since we would seem to be engaging in an act that would be part of the official Liturgy of the Church, that I would use the one for the area I was in - to wit, the US. Just as if I were a priest and saying the OF, I would say the one approved for the USE - that is, following the GIRM for the US. If I were, however, to say Mass publicly in another country, then it would seem that I should follow the GIRM of that country.
In other words, it would seem fine to use whatever format of the Hours I choose, if I am doing this as a spiritual exercise, rather than as an official act of joining in the LIturgy of the Church.
Rather than make charges of abuse, or disobedience, I would rather look at the issue of what the individual was trying to accomplish; private prayer according to a certain format, or joining in the official Liturgy of the Church. If the latter, then it only makes sense to follow along with the rules for that Liturgy in the location I reside in. If the former, then I cam free to choose the Benedictine format, or the current US format, or the UK format, or some other.
On the other hand, if it is not a matter of personal spirituality, but a ,atter of an official liturgical act, then perhaps the issue could be framed otherwise.
If I am at a Benedictine abbey, I would presume that I would pray the Hours as they do; and their Hours are a bit different in structure than is the LOTH for the US. and if I was a Benedictine, then, I should pray the Office according to their rule, and not presume to go off by myself and use the LOTH per the US.
If I were to pray the LOTH in community in the US, then it would make sense, since we would seem to be engaging in an act that would be part of the official Liturgy of the Church, that I would use the one for the area I was in - to wit, the US. Just as if I were a priest and saying the OF, I would say the one approved for the USE - that is, following the GIRM for the US. If I were, however, to say Mass publicly in another country, then it would seem that I should follow the GIRM of that country.
In other words, it would seem fine to use whatever format of the Hours I choose, if I am doing this as a spiritual exercise, rather than as an official act of joining in the LIturgy of the Church.
Rather than make charges of abuse, or disobedience, I would rather look at the issue of what the individual was trying to accomplish; private prayer according to a certain format, or joining in the official Liturgy of the Church. If the latter, then it only makes sense to follow along with the rules for that Liturgy in the location I reside in. If the former, then I cam free to choose the Benedictine format, or the current US format, or the UK format, or some other.
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ddeluna
Guest
Well said and I agree completely.
I think sometimes it’s not clear when reading a post, what the poster’s intentions are - do they want to use something other than that which is prescribed for the official prayer of the church in their area but still refer to what they intend to do as participating in the official prayer of the church, OR it’s all just private devotion.
The other thing is that many simply don’t know the diff and just need a little pointing in the right direction.
I think sometimes it’s not clear when reading a post, what the poster’s intentions are - do they want to use something other than that which is prescribed for the official prayer of the church in their area but still refer to what they intend to do as participating in the official prayer of the church, OR it’s all just private devotion.
The other thing is that many simply don’t know the diff and just need a little pointing in the right direction.
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