Traditionalists not attending Novus Ordo

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“Everything around you” has no bearing on whether Pius XII or any other claimants to the Chair of Peter was “duly elected.” decades earlier. I think your methodology in rationally evaluating the dogmatic fact is flawed. You are starting from your unproved sedevacantist premise, and then move backwards in time to ask how it might be theologically possible to withhold your obedience to ther person sitting in the Chair of Peter. Ah hah! There is a way!! Conclude a priori that those claimants to the papacy must not have really been duly elected, and therefore we have been in a really loooong interregnum for all of my life.
Dave:

Correct…“everything around me” has no bearing on whether Pius XII was a true Pope. In that we agree. What happened from then on does have some bearing…you want to say that the “history” of the papacy of Paul VI and so on is the history that determines the dogmatic fact of their papacy.

I say look at the history of what actually happened…that is the real history. I guess it does not matter at all what happens…you have your dogmatic fact…and it’s a new springtime…a new Pentecost. You can’t dissent from the Pope on any of this.

Yours,

Gorman

P.S. Here is another famous dogmatic theologian, the Jesuit Palmieri. This was published just after the Vatican Council (1877), and at Rome:
“What we have said about the infallibility of the Church’s magisterium in the verbal formulas of the profession of Faith must also be said to other signs, for example paintings and images, by which the Church, by her ordinary and universal magisterium communicates the teaching of the Faith; for the same reason applies to both.” (From, “Tractatus de Romano Pontifice cum prolegomeno de Ecclesia.”)
 
I agree with Gorman64 stated in the post above ( #251 ).
I sort of agree with that post; I liked his #125 better. It shows more clearly the type of disagreement that is permissible.
“Everything around you” has no bearing on whether Pius XII or any other claimants to the Chair of Peter was “duly elected.” decades earlier. I think your methodology in rationally evaluating the dogmatic fact is flawed. You are starting from your unproved sedevacantist premise, and then move backwards in time to ask how it might be theologically possible to withhold your obedience to ther person sitting in the Chair of Peter. Ah hah! There is a way!! Conclude a priori that those claimants to the papacy must not have really been duly elected, and therefore we have been in a really loooong interregnum for all of my life.
Dave and Gorman,

This is what I was talking about when I remarked how illogical it is for a member of the Taught Church to be in a position to definitively judge the orthodoxy and jurisdiction of a member of the Teaching Church. Why on earth do we even have a Teaching Church vs. Taught Church???

Maria
 
… Why on earth do we even have a Teaching Church vs. Taught Church???
Maria
More to the point:
Why even have a Taught Church if they cannot know aka be Taught anything that they can use?
 
Ok, what am I Taught by the following:

Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos (#10), Jan. 6, 1928:
“… the union of Christians can only be promoted by promoting the return to the one true Church of Christ of those who are separated from it…”​

Cardinal Walter Kasper, Prefect of Vatican Council for Promoting Christian Unity: “… today we** no longer** understand ecumenism in the sense of a return, by which the others would ‘be converted’ and return to being Catholics. This was expressly abandoned by Vatican II.” (Adista, Feb. 26, 2001)​

Benedict XVI, Address to Protestants at World Youth Day, August 19, 2005: “And we now ask: What does it mean to restore the unity of all Christians?.. This unity, we are convinced, indeed subsists in the Catholic Church, without the possibility of ever being lost (Unitatis Redintegratio, nn. 2, 4, etc.); the Church in fact has not totally disappeared from the world. On the other hand, this unity does not mean what could be called ecumenism of the return: that is, to deny and to reject one’s own faith history. Absolutely not!” (L’Osservatore Romano, August 24, 2005, p. 8.)​

 
More to the point:
Why even have a Taught Church if they cannot know aka be Taught anything that they can use?
You said something to that effect in post #186, and I answered it in post #189. I maintain my position: it’s alright for a member of the Taught Church to recognize heresy, but it’s not okay for him to definitively judge the orthodoxy and therefore the jurisdiction of a member of the Teaching Church. Can you provide a source that says otherwise? I don’t think so.

Maria
 
Dave and Gorman,
This is what I was talking about when I remarked how illogical it is for a member of the Taught Church to be in a position to definitively judge the orthodoxy and jurisdiction of a member of the Teaching Church. Why on earth do we even have a Teaching Church vs. Taught Church???
Maria:

We need to address this idea of “definitive judgment”. I do not know any serious traditionalist who would say that a layman can or may make any sort of judgment that is binding on another. I do not claim that to be the case in any way.

Binding and loosing is simply not a function of the laity. It’s not illogical…it impossible.

Yours,

Gorman

P.S.
I maintain my position: it’s alright for a member of the Taught Church to recognize heresy, but it’s not okay for him to definitively judge the orthodoxy and therefore the jurisdiction of a member of the Teaching Church. Can you provide a source that says otherwise? I don’t think so.
Why is it alright? Because one cannot help but recognise something…do you agree?
 
We need to address this idea of “definitive judgment”. I do not know any serious traditionalist who would say that a layman can or may make any sort of judgment that is binding on another. I do not claim that to be the case in any way.
I wasn’t using definitive judgment in the sense of binding on another. I was using that term to refer to this type of judgment: a judgment so authoritative that an inferior can determine that his superior no longer has jurisdiction, and a judgment so sure that one can judge the soul of another. That’s what judging a bishop as a heretic is: it’s nothing less than judging his soul. Because formal heresy involves both the consent of the will and the knowledge that the tenets held are incompatible with Catholic teaching. So basically, when you conclude he is a formal heretic, you are claiming to know his soul.
Binding and loosing is simply not a function of the laity. It’s not illogical…it impossible.
I’m not sure I understand how this applies to my statements.
Why is it alright? Because one cannot help but recognise something…do you agree?
Yes, one ought to recognize heresy, but that doesn’t give one the right to conclude that another is a formal heretic. A material heretic (i.e., one who errs in good faith) can quite successfully teach heresy.

We can’t go through life without making judgments. But there’s a difference between judging the act itself and the one who acts. Heresy by itself is objectively heresy, but one who teaches/holds objective heresy is not necessarily a (formal) heretic. We can judge the act but we are not allowed to judge the one who acts.

Maria
 
Dave, you seem to have this obsession with “duly elected.”
“Duly elected” are the precise words used in pre-Vatican II theology manuals. I refer to pre-Vatican II terminology in my discussions with those who reject the authority John XXIII and subsequent Roman Pontiffs. “Duly elected” refers to whatever the lawful process for elected the pope was at the time of the election. Such electoral norms may change. At the time of John XXIII’s election, they were prescribed by Pope Pius XII’s Apostolic Constitution Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis (December 8, 1945).
 
…I say look at the history of what actually happened…that is the real history.
I did. It is historical and therefore dogmatic fact that John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul I, John Paul II, and Benedict XVI were duly elected and universally accepted as the Roman Pontiff. Therefore, it is necessary for my salvation to submit to them, as they possess jurisdictional power which is both episcopal and immediate. All Catholics, both singly and collectively, are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the Church throughout the world. This is the teaching of the Catholic truth, and no one can depart from it without endangering his faith and salvation.

Therefore, sedevacantism and Lefebvrism are both damnable sins.
You can’t dissent from the Pope on any of this.
Correct. Neither can anyone else, without endangering their faith and salvation.
 
How many areas of mere disagreement do you think there are?
In theology, all those things which are not dogma (de fide) or certain doctrine (sententia certa) remain free opinion, and charitable disagreement is not, therefore, a sin against true obedience. Charitable disagreement may be erroneous. But error is not the same as sin.

One example is the common teaching (sententia communis) regarding limbo of the children. Since it was sententia communis and not sententia certa, it is a matter of free opinion to which one may charitably disagree.
I think you are attributing some meaning of Pius X’s words that are just not there.
What meaning is that? That I must assent to that which the pope himself does not consider binding upon me? I disagree.
Does this teaching need to be directed to the Universal Church…
Not strictly, although doing so give is more authoritative weight. Many papal addresses have been given to a small group but have later been published in the Acta Apostolicae Sedis, which gives it a more universal character, and therefore is considered by theologians as having more authoritative weight.
…if it is not may it be “disagreed with” as in what is “held by him as doubtful or unofficially as Vicar of Christ, and therefore free opinion among the clergy”?
According to pre-Vatican II theology manuals, discerning the authoritative weight of non-definitive magisterial texts which are not promulgated “*solemni iudicio” *is no simple task. Fr. John Ford, S.J. and Fr. Gerald Kelly, S.J., have an enitire chapter which describes the “Doctrinal Value and Interpretation of Papal Teaching” in the text *Contemporary Moral Theology, Vol. 1 Questions in Fundamental Moral Theology, *(Westminster, Maryland: Newman Press, 1959).

Fr. Ford and Fr. Kelly state:
the Pope [Pius XII, *Humani Generis
] reminds them that encyclicals, besides often containing matters of dogma, may intend to settle points hitherto disputed, and such decisions demand of themselves a positive assent on the part of the faithful, theologians included. In issuing them the popes exercise what is technically known as the ordinary or authentic magisterium, of which it is true to say: He who hearteh you, heareth me." …

According to theologians, [such decisions] demand per se the positive assent of the faithful [Denzinger 2113]. This is technically known as “religious assent.” It is true internal assent, not a mere silentium obsequiosum such as the Jansenists were willing to give the papal decrees issued against them…

“… if a reputable scholar should arrive at a different solution [from the authentic (ordinary) but non-infallible (solemn) decision of the magisterium], theologians advise him to communicate his findings to the respective Roman congregation, but not to broadcast them, in defiance, as it were, of the magisterium.” (ibid., pgs. 24-25)
continued…
 
Gorman 64,

For example, let’s say you and I lived under the papacy of John XXII, and had the honor to be present at one of his sermons. Let’s say that John XXII taught in this sermon that there is no Beatific Vision of God for anyone until the last judgment. This (at that time) was contrary to the “usual opinion” of the theologians. This begs the question: Did he intend to make such a seemingly erroneous teaching binding upon the faithful?

We are certain that he is indeed the Roman Pontiff (duly elected) and that we are to submit to his mind and will on doctrinal matters. But was he giving his theological opinion, or was he formally and authoritatively promulgating such a teaching as papal doctrine. That’s the question that must be discerned. But how? “His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking.” (Lumen Gentium, 25). Perhaps simply asking him what he meant is the better than charging him with heresy, no?

St. Pius X, in his allocution, said: " Quando si ama una persona si cerca di uniformarsi in tutto ai suoi pensieri, di esequirne i voleri, di interpretarne i desideri." Which I think means roughly, "***When one is loved, all of that person’s thoughts (pensieri), wills (voleri), and desires (desideri) are sought out (cerca, ie. “attempts, tries”) for assent *****(uniformasi, ie. “conformity”).

Thus, in our John XXII example, by virtue of his pastoral authority we owe our religious submission of intellect and will to the sermon of John XXII, but in accord with his intent, his thoughts, will, desire.

Now, in the above incident John XXII’s “enemies made use of [his teaching] to discredit him.” (Catholic Encyclopedia - John XXII). Why? Because this was not the “usual opinion” of the theologians. How would you characterize the reaction of those who sought to discredit him? Does that sound like seeking (ie attempting, Ital. “cerca”) to know that person’s thoughts (pensieri), wills (voleri), and desires (desideri) so as to assent or conform (It. “uniformasi”) to it?

Other more noble Catholics sought not to discredit him, but instead to better understand, to discuss, to answer the question: Did the Pope assert that which I am bound to assent or risk eternal salvation, or was it merely something he did not intend to make binding, and thus still a matter of free opinion? “Pope John wrote to King Philip IV on the matter (November, 1333), and emphasized the fact that, as long as the Holy See had not given a decision, the theologians enjoyed perfect freedom in this matter.” (ibid). So it appears that not every utterance from the pope, even in his sermons, is considered sententia certa which is binding upon the all the faithful. Moreover, the Catholics who sought first to understand the mind of the Roman Pontiff were more nobel than those who sought to discredit him.

“John appointed a commission at Avignon to study the writings of the Fathers, and to discuss further the disputed question. In a consistory held on 3 January, 1334, the pope explicitly declared that he had never meant to teach aught contrary to Holy Scripture or the rule of faith and in fact had not intended to give any decision whatever. Before his death he withdrew his former opinion, and declared his belief that souls separated from their bodies enjoyed in heaven the Beatific Vision.” (ibid.).

With regard to scandal of “dissent”, Cardinal Ratzinger gave the following instruction: Instruction on the Ecclesial Vocation of Theologian ****
 

…​

Benedict XVI, Address to Protestants at World Youth Day, August 19, 2005: “And we now ask: What does it mean to restore the unity of all Christians?.. This unity, we are convinced, indeed subsists in the Catholic Church, without the possibility of ever being lost (Unitatis Redintegratio, nn. 2, 4, etc.); the Church in fact has not totally disappeared from the world. On the other hand, this unity does not mean what could be called ecumenism of the return: that is, to deny and to reject one’s own faith history. Absolutely not!” (L’Osservatore Romano, August 24, 2005, p. 8.)​

What the pope taught above he expounds upon and gives examples in his text, Truth and Tolerance - Christian Belief and World Religions. As I understand it, he is saying that ecumenism is a return to truth, but not necessarily ridding oneself of their own “faith history.” I have no idea what Cardinal Kasper is trying to say. However, the pope has a much more clear explanation which, since he is pope, I am obliged to seek to better understand. It doesn’t seem to me that his view of ecumenism includes obstinate refusal to have faith in Christ and submit in true obedience to the Roman Pontiff.

It means instead that Catholicism allows a plurality of theology, and a plurality of liturgical expression, but does not allow a plurality of what it knows to be truth, ie “doctrinal plurality.”

For example, we wear wedding rings, which have been adopted from a historical “faith history” that of paganism. Other examples abound, such as Christmas trees, celebrating birthdays, etc. Christianity seeks to purify former faith histories of their error, and then sanctify their cultural signification with truth. Christianity does not merely insist that such “faith history” simply be denied or rejected. On the contrary, they are to be understood as preparatory for Truth and in true ecumenism, purified by Truth.

The first Christians were Jews who did not deny their “faith history” for a totally new faith. That’s the early Church model of ecumensim that the pope seeks.

Within the Greek world, the saints did not insist that the Greeks deny their philosophy, their “faith history,” but instead insisted that their “faith history” transcend their errors, and by embracing the truth become sanctified forms of thought. The early fathers did not just mix Greek philosophy into the gospel, but instead took up dialogue with the Greek philosophers and made their cultural forms an instrument of the gospel.

One can and should transform false worship into true worship without requiring that the “ray of truth” found in the faith history of various world cultures be denied.

Pope St. Gregory the Great seemed to be expressing this when writing to missionaries:
But when, with the grace of almighty God, you reach our most reverend brother, Bishop Augustine, then tell him that I have been reflecting at length about one matter concerning the Englishmen. That is ***one should by no means destory the tmples of this people’s idols; rather simply destroy the idols to be found within them…When the people see that we are not destroying their temples, then they will nonetheless abandon their errors and will that much more joyfully turn to the knowledge and wh tworship of the true God in their accustomed places." ***
[St. Gregory the Great, *Ep. XI, 56, cited by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Truth and Tolerance, pg. 229)
John XXII’s enemies made use of his teachings to discredit him. Those who loved the pope sought to better understand John XXII. The latter approach was the more nobel of the two, the approach of those who truly love the pope.

Pope Benedict XVI is the living Vicar of Christ. If you are uncertain about his teachings, seek clarification. Those who love the pope would surely do so and submit to his thoughts, will, and desire. Those who seem to have alterior motives, lacking love for the pope, acting more like Jansenists, don’t seem to understand what religiosum obesequium authentically means.
 
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Gorman64:
…you want to say that the “history” of the papacy of Paul VI and so on is the history that determines the dogmatic fact of their papacy.
Not quite. The “history” that I am referring to is the subsequent acceptance of the election. In other words, I’m agreeing with Cardinal Billot and other pre-Vatican II theologians in saying that no matter one’s doubt about a possibly defective papal election, the subsequent peaceful acceptance of the election by the Cardinals, the Roman clergy, and the Catholic faithful suffices to validate the papal election. This history we should be discerning, therefore, is the historical fact of that acceptance.

According to Cardinal Billot:
Code:
                “God may allow that a vacancy of the Apostolic See last for a while. He may also permit that some doubt be risen about the legitimacy of such or such election. However, God will never allow the whole Church to recognize as Pontiff someone who is not really and lawfully. Thus, as long as a pope is accepted by the Church, and united with her like the head is united to the body, one can no longer raise any doubt about a possible defective election… For ***the universal acceptance of the Church heals in the root any vitiated election***." Billot, *Tractatus de Ecclesia Christi* (1927-1929), Vol. I, pp. 612-613].
Some seem to want to deny historical fact of that acceptance in order to fabricate a reason to deny dogmatic facts which are theologically certain.

This seem clear to me a fatal flaw of the sedevacantist argument. Sedevacantists are skilled at using the argument of “theological certainty” until it comes back to destroy their own conclusions.

I understand you disagree, but you should note that my argument is not based upon anything other than pre-Vatican II theology, and rational view of the historical facts regarding universal acceptance as to who holds the office of Roman Pontiff.
 
Six rather substantial posts in a row from you, Dave. You sure the moderators won’t notice? 😃

Maria
 
Six rather substantial posts in a row from you, Dave. You sure the moderators won’t notice? 😃

Maria
They only usually mind if they are cut and paste large amounts of your posts. Most of the words used were Dave originals.👍
 
elzoro,

Labeling people and calling them names illustrates the spirit behind this movement. It is rebellion against authority and a control issue.

Many ultra-traditionalists I know (in fact, most) are also anti-immunizations, anti-organic foods, anti-this, that, etc. They even believe they are committing sin if they let their kids have a doughnut, for crying out loud. There is a general fear of everything: ie, germs, persecution complexes, all kinds of things. I could label these people as OCD, but you would accuse me of being uncharitable. Yet, The two go hand-in-hand.

On the other hand there are perfectly normal people who simply prefer the Tridentine Mass. They simply feel it is superior to a regular Mass. That is the normal, healthy, mature way to deal with it. Get the difference?
 
I will not go to any Novus Ordo Mass ever. Not because I think it’s invalid, or that the See of Peter is vacant, or that V2 was not a real Council,no so don’t get excited all you Neo-Con’s. I won’t go because I cannot stomach it,It is so pathetic,I cannot bear through it…If I go it ruins my faith. Condemn me call be whatever you want but I won’t do it that’s it.:mad: :eek:
Do you mean that you’re not attending Mass at all? I really don’t think not attending Mass at all is too good of an idea. What the church needs is more good parishoners, and not so many wannabe Bishops and Popes.
 
Maria:

Some clarifications:
I wasn’t using definitive judgment in the sense of binding on another. I was using that term to refer to this type of judgment: a judgment so authoritative that an inferior can determine that his superior no longer has jurisdiction
OK, I understand now. You hold that I may recognise a heresy but not recognise pertinacity. Is that correct?
and a judgment so sure that one can judge the soul of another. That’s what judging a bishop as a heretic is: it’s nothing less than judging his soul.
I don’t think this is the case. We judge externals…not internals.
Because formal heresy involves both the consent of the will and the knowledge that the tenets held are incompatible with Catholic teaching. So basically, when you conclude he is a formal heretic, you are claiming to know his soul.
I think this is incorrect. No one can know the soul of another…any judgment deals with the external…which may very well express the internal…but usually not. Pertinacity is external…as well as internal
I’m not sure I understand how this applies to my statements.
Based on the above clarification, it does not apply. 🙂

Yours,

Gorman
 
Dear Dave:

I will respond to post #271. I will likely ignore the others…a reply to each just takes too much time. Enjoy the crickets while you wait. 🙂

Yours,

Gorman
 
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