Traditionalizing our OF Mass

[StevenDunn]

What kind of liturgical training and formation do these coordinators receive?

I want to add something.

This absence of training is exactly why my parish has been using the Mass of Creation for (so I’ve been told) the last 15 years. Nobody touches the liturgy. This means no traditional Mass settings, no buying of an altar cloth that fits, no ad orientem - and yet giant puppets and liturgical dancers have never entered our doors, either. It’s very bleh. We’re all tired of it, and want to bring reverence back into the service. Our priest is very supportive, and has made it clear he’s been waiting for the parish to support for these sorts of changes, as he wanted them to develop organically. Now that they’re developing he’s willing to implement them.

I was picked as coordinator for this year where changes are to begin because I do have liturgical training and formation, but it’s all in the context of the Latin Mass. I really have no clue about the Novus Ordo and what things are even possible. I’ve seen videos of OF Masses that look similar to EF Masses, but I don’t know how to get from here to there, and even if I did, I’m not sure how to do it without stepping on too many toes.

 

[Joannm]

I want to add something.

This absence of training is exactly why my parish has been using the Mass of Creation for (so I’ve been told) the last 15 years. Nobody touches the liturgy. This means no traditional Mass settings, no buying of an altar cloth that fits, no ad orientem - and yet giant puppets and liturgical dancers have never entered our doors, either. It’s very bleh. We’re all tired of it, and want to bring reverence back into the service. Our priest is very supportive, and has made it clear he’s been waiting for the parish to support for these sorts of changes, as he wanted them to develop organically. Now that they’re developing he’s willing to implement them.

I was picked as coordinator for this year where changes are to begin because I do have liturgical training and formation, but it’s all in the context of the Latin Mass. I really have no clue about the Novus Ordo and what things are even possible. I’ve seen videos of OF Masses that look similar to EF Masses, but I don’t know how to get from here to there, and even if I did, I’m not sure how to do it without stepping on too many toes.

I have a suggestion that the pastor form a liturgy committee and spend a good portion of each meeting studying the liturgy documents. Then, as a group, you could make recommendations and come to some consensus as to how the parish could implement changes. The pastor or an associate must be part of this committee, as well as the music director and EM, Lector and Altar Server coordinators if they are any. With the revised translations coming in a little over a year, this is a good time to evaluate your parish’s liturgies. It may also be a good time to take a liturgy survey of the parish to see what they might think is needed. Some of the suggestions you get will be simply complaints or things you cannot do, but you probably will come up with some good suggestions.

 

[StevenDunn]

The Mass is already planned…it’s called the GIRM. I still don’t understand how someone without any liturgical education can make decisions about how a particular Mass will be celebrated? In our diocese, people in parishes who assist with the liturgy as "coordinators’ take courses offered by the diocese, and they are still only in an advisory role and don’t make any decisions as to what is done at the Mass. Mass isn’t celebrated with one particular group in mind but with the entire assembly taken into consideration. For example, our Family Mass only is called so because we offer the Children’s Liturgy of the Word and we have a children’s choir, which sings basically the same music as is sung at the other Sunday Masses. Families also feel they are welcome at this mass without any stares or comments. People know most families come to this mass so if they don’t like noisy kids at times, they don’t come to that mass.

What other groups are assigned a particular mass each month? I don’t mean to say that what you do isn’t important, because it is. I just don’t understand how particular coordinators or groups can make decisions as to changes in the way particular masses are celebrated.

1. The coordinators are, literally, people with excel spreadsheets, a list of people that want to do things like cantor or lector, and a parish directory. They don’t make any changes to how the Mass is celebrated. They fill in the spreadsheet.
2. The GIRM doesn’t say whether to have a choir or a cantor, or whether to sing a hymn at the entrance or the introductory antiphon, or whether to say one EP versus another. It provides multiple options at certain points. The priest makes the final decision. He’s willing to entertain whatever acceptable options the parish requests.
3. No other group has their own Mass, because they never requested one. We asked for it, we do the work, we run everything by the priest and nobody complains. And, as I’ve already said, until now we’ve done exactly the same things as every other Mass, except we have our KCs fill the roles of Lector, Cantor, etc. It’s not done “for” us, but done “by” us to help take some of the stress off of the regular coordinators. It’s community service, not self-aggrandizement.

I hope this is clear, since there’s been some confusion! God bless!

 

[StevenDunn]

I have a suggestion that the pastor form a liturgy committee and spend a good portion of each meeting studying the liturgy documents. Then, as a group, you could make recommendations and come to some consensus as to how the parish could implement changes. The pastor or an associate must be part of this committee, as well as the music director and EM, Lector and Altar Server coordinators if they are any. With the revised translations coming in a little over a year, this is a good time to evaluate your parish’s liturgies. It may also be a good time to take a liturgy survey of the parish to see what they might think is needed. Some of the suggestions you get will be simply complaints or things you cannot do, but you probably will come up with some good suggestions.

I think this is a wonderful idea. I’ll mention it to my priest tomorrow.

 

[malphono]

Ad orientem and kneeling are great, but we want to ease the congregation into it. Our priest is fine with both, but agrees with us that the congregation has to be moved towards that more slowly.

Since the priest is fine with ad orientem, from my perspective there’s no time like the present to “ease the congregation” into it. (It harkens back to that old proverb “never put off until tomorrow what you can do today.”)

If the priest doesn’t already have them, there are several excellent sources available. One can be found on pages 2-3 of dioceseoftulsa.org/eoc/eoc200909.pdf) and another (taken from a parish bulletin) in musicasacra.com/pdf/adorientem.pdf. A little catechesis goes a long way and is all that is really necessary.

Just my :twocents:

 

[Cat]

Just be careful about kneeling for Communion without an altar rail.

Perhaps I’m more sensitive to it because for the last few days, my osteoarthritis has been acting up really bad, and I’m not the only one. My friend at work, who is barely 40, has the same condition (and she’s a lot skinnier than me), and she was literally in tears last week. (Muggy weather–yuck.)

At the moment, most people in our parish stand, according the U.S. norms. But if a committee came along and told everyone to kneel, and the majority of people knelt and I had to stand, I would feel very self-conscious.

So if you decide to implement this change, somehow help those with disabilities that prevent them from kneeling to feel part of the parish and not like misfits. Make sure that it is clear that we are not violating any official rubrics to remain standing.

BTW, I was not raised Catholic, so I have no memory of people kneeling at an altar rail to receive Holy Communion.

 

[JHow]

… People seem more willing to accept changes in music than they are anything else.

Because you don’t need to be an expert in liturgy or music to know when something is bad… and the music usually is bad in most parishes. There is a lot of collective denial on this point, but the people know.

 

[roadsend]

Ask your padre to distribute Communion by intinction, so that folks uncomfortable with drinking directly from the chalice might have the opportunity to receive under both species.

 

[Adeodatus]

Steven, I applaud your efforts! Truly it is a mitzah to make the Mass more reverent.

I think starting out with the ad orientem posture is an easy first step. I don’t think it will throw the congregation into chaos. I think they’ll see the beauty of it immediately.

As far as the distribution of Communion, I may be wrong on this but as Communion in the hand is an indult, I think it may be in the pastor’s competence to abolish. So moving to Communion on the tongue could be a wonderful way to increase reverence.

It is definitely in the pastor’s competence to abolish altar girls. Abolish that and also the use of EMHC. You don’t need a platoon of laymen (or more usually, laywomen) storming the sanctuary just to finish Communion 5 minutes faster. Those are all easy things to get rid of and I think it will be a big improvement if you haven’t already done so.

 

[Luger]

I would start by making sure you have your masses said by a solid priest. One who “says the black and does the red,” eg, follows the rubrics exactly. That is a very good start.

A few other suggestions:

-Adding Gregorian chant to various parts of the Mass: Kyrie, Gloria, Creed, Agnus Dei, etc…
-Using more uplifting and traditional hymns
-Using beautiful and traditional vestments for the priest/servers
-Beautifying the altar with lace trimmed altar cloths, more beautiful (symmetrically placed) candlesticks, floral arrangements appropriate for the day (in colors coordinated to the vestments appropriate for that day’s Mass.)
-Proper training of altar boys, **as opposed to girls, which are only to be used in **extraordinary circumstances–they are not the norm.
-Having the clergy exclusively distribute Holy Communion
-Silence before the Mass, giving people an opportunity to enter into the proper disposition for an uplifting, interior participation

There are many small things you can do to beautify the Mass in your parish. Properly placed floral arrangements, may sound trite, but it sets a mood.

This is a good website that is focused on beauty in the liturgy: newliturgicalmovement.org/

This week they are focused on the Holy Father’s trip to the UK, but check out many of their articles. I have learned a lot about liturgy from this site.

You are mistaken. Both male and female servers are used with equal correctness in the OF Mass. Female servers are not “extraordinary.”

 

[Luger]

Steven, I applaud your efforts! Truly it is a mitzah to make the Mass more reverent.

I think starting out with the ad orientem posture is an easy first step. I don’t think it will throw the congregation into chaos. I think they’ll see the beauty of it immediately.

As far as the distribution of Communion, I may be wrong on this but as Communion in the hand is an indult, I think it may be in the pastor’s competence to abolish. So moving to Communion on the tongue could be a wonderful way to increase reverence.

It is definitely in the pastor’s competence to abolish altar girls. Abolish that and also the use of EMHC. You don’t need a platoon of laymen (or more usually, laywomen) storming the sanctuary just to finish Communion 5 minutes faster. Those are all easy things to get rid of and I think it will be a big improvement if you haven’t already done so.

The fact that it is by indult makes absolutely no difference. CIH is every bit as reverent as COT.

 

[Luger]

What kind of liturgical training and formation do these coordinators receive?

Very good question!

 

[Luger]

It’s a question of planning, scheduling and logistics. If there are liturgical questions they go to the priest. I’m sorry if that wasn’t clear in the previous comments.

What “planning?”

 

[Luger]

The Mass is already planned…it’s called the GIRM. I still don’t understand how someone without any liturgical education can make decisions about how a particular Mass will be celebrated? In our diocese, people in parishes who assist with the liturgy as "coordinators’ take courses offered by the diocese, and they are still only in an advisory role and don’t make any decisions as to what is done at the Mass. Mass isn’t celebrated with one particular group in mind but with the entire assembly taken into consideration. For example, our Family Mass only is called so because we offer the Children’s Liturgy of the Word and we have a children’s choir, which sings basically the same music as is sung at the other Sunday Masses. Families also feel they are welcome at this mass without any stares or comments. People know most families come to this mass so if they don’t like noisy kids at times, they don’t come to that mass.

What other groups are assigned a particular mass each month? I don’t mean to say that what you do isn’t important, because it is. I just don’t understand how particular coordinators or groups can make decisions as to changes in the way particular masses are celebrated.

It really comes down to which options within the GIRM are selected. Things like music, sprinkling, incense, sanctus bells, final blessings, etc. etc.

I would certainly agree that a person needs some formal formation to do this sort of work and then only in close relation with their pastor. Coming on here and asking about “Traditionalizing our OF Mass” screams trouble – particularly when you consider some of the advice being proffered…

 

[Luger]

I want to add something.

This absence of training is exactly why my parish has been using the Mass of Creation for (so I’ve been told) the last 15 years. Nobody touches the liturgy. This means no traditional Mass settings, no buying of an altar cloth that fits, no ad orientem - and yet giant puppets and liturgical dancers have never entered our doors, either. It’s very bleh. We’re all tired of it, and want to bring reverence back into the service. Our priest is very supportive, and has made it clear he’s been waiting for the parish to support for these sorts of changes, as he wanted them to develop organically. Now that they’re developing he’s willing to implement them.

I was picked as coordinator for this year where changes are to begin because I do have liturgical training and formation, but it’s all in the context of the Latin Mass. I really have no clue about the Novus Ordo and what things are even possible. I’ve seen videos of OF Masses that look similar to EF Masses, but I don’t know how to get from here to there, and even if I did, I’m not sure how to do it without stepping on too many toes.

Scary…

 

[Rawb]

I would certainly agree that a person needs some formal formation to do this sort of work and then only in close relation with their pastor. Coming on here and asking about “Traditionalizing our OF Mass” screams trouble – particularly when you consider some of the advice being proffered…

Yes because those who’ve been responsible for such things up till now (liturgical coordinators or whatever) have been known for doing such a good job, and obviously having such a great grasp on Catholic theology.

Many positions in governing The Church, which are held by laymen, are done on a volunteer, learn as you go basis. CCD is done that way, often the DRE starts that way, the heads of third orders start that way, the Knights themselves start that way. The formation comes after someone has volunteered, which is exactly what Mr. Dunn is doing here. Obviously he’s not taking all our suggestions and automatically enforcing them within the Mass. He’s feeling out options, asking for suggestions, and will implement them as he and his priest see fit.

 

[StevenDunn]

Scary…

Way to not quote the section where I mention that I’m familiar with the Latin Mass rubrics. I’m always willing to give someone the benefit of the doubt, but this is blatantly disingenuous.

For the record, I am an MC for our Latin Mass, train our altar servers and have even corrected/clarified rubrical issues for our priests. I have also recently been requested as an advisor on the purchase of liturgical items at our parish. So don’t act like I’m some dummy that’s running around messing everything up because I (by my own admission) have not yet taught myself similar things for the OF Mass.

 

[StevenDunn]

Yes because those who’ve been responsible for such things up till now (liturgical coordinators or whatever) have been known for doing such a good job, and obviously having such a great grasp on Catholic theology.

Many positions in governing The Church, which are held by laymen, are done on a volunteer, learn as you go basis. CCD is done that way, often the DRE starts that way, the heads of third orders start that way, the Knights themselves start that way. The formation comes after someone has volunteered, which is exactly what Mr. Dunn is doing here. Obviously he’s not taking all our suggestions and automatically enforcing them within the Mass. He’s feeling out options, asking for suggestions, and will implement them as he and his priest see fit.

Exactly! I’m really surprised at the hostile reaction from some posters about this. Everyone at my parish who volunteers for positions like this lack any substantial training. We learn as we go and pass the knowledge along to the next person. Maybe it’s different for larger parishes, I don’t know.

 

[benedictgal]

Exactly! I’m really surprised at the hostile reaction from some posters about this. Everyone at my parish who volunteers for positions like this lack any substantial training. We learn as we go and pass the knowledge along to the next person. Maybe it’s different for larger parishes, I don’t know.

What you might want to do is to start with reading the authoritaitve documents of the Church on all matters regarding the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. The General Instruction of the Roman Missal (3rd typical edition-2002-USCCB) is essential reading. However, it should be read in tandem with Redemptionis Sacramentum which details liturgical abuse. Sacramentum Caritatis is also an excellent document to read as well. You can find these at www.adoremus.org . In fact, you can find a lot of liturgical information on this website. They have an excellent online liturgical library.

It would not be a bad idea for the Knights to engage in some sort of liturgical training once a month during your meetings (or, hold a special meeting to look at the matter apart from your regular meeting). Since your council is a parish one, this is one way that your pastor can be directly involved since I assume he is also your chaplain.

The GIRM gives you the particulars such as EMHCs not approaching the altar until after the celebrant has communicated (this also means that they cannot go to the tabernacle, as this is reserved to the celebrant). Lectors should also be trained as to the manner of proclaiming the readings.

Insofar as music is concerned, it is helpful to read Musicam Sacram, the Church’s authoritative document on the music. Don’t necessarily go by what the publishing houses suggest because, more often than not, they will promote their own music rather than what the Church considers to be sacred.

One way to put what you have learned into practice would be in November when the Knights typically have their Memorial Mass for their deceased brethren. There, since y’all will help plan the Mass, you can certainly introduce chant and sacred music. The only suggestion that I will make (and I have made it to my father, since he is a fourth degree knight) is that you defer the traditional “roll call” until after the post-Communion prayer, since this is not part of the Mass, per se.

If I may, I will offer one more suggestion. One way that your council can be of help to the entire parish as a whole is to perhaps help sponsor a workshop or help secure materials on catechizing your parishioners on the revised translation of the Roman Missal. The prayers have been revised and you would serve your parish well if you could help facilitate this. This, I believe, is a key factor to help iimprove the liturgical life of your parish. The prayers have been revised to use a more sacred, elevated language. This means that the Mass settings are going to change as well, to reflect these revisions.

 

[StevenDunn]

What you might want to do is to start with reading the authoritaitve documents of the Church on all matters regarding the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. The General Instruction of the Roman Missal (3rd typical edition-2002-USCCB) is essential reading. However, it should be read in tandem with Redemptionis Sacramentum which details liturgical abuse. Sacramentum Caritatis is also an excellent document to read as well. You can find these at www.adoremus.org . In fact, you can find a lot of liturgical information on this website. They have an excellent online liturgical library.

It would not be a bad idea for the Knights to engage in some sort of liturgical training once a month during your meetings (or, hold a special meeting to look at the matter apart from your regular meeting). Since your council is a parish one, this is one way that your pastor can be directly involved since I assume he is also your chaplain.

The GIRM gives you the particulars such as EMHCs not approaching the altar until after the celebrant has communicated (this also means that they cannot go to the tabernacle, as this is reserved to the celebrant). Lectors should also be trained as to the manner of proclaiming the readings.

Insofar as music is concerned, it is helpful to read Musicam Sacram, the Church’s authoritative document on the music. Don’t necessarily go by what the publishing houses suggest because, more often than not, they will promote their own music rather than what the Church considers to be sacred.

One way to put what you have learned into practice would be in November when the Knights typically have their Memorial Mass for their deceased brethren. There, since y’all will help plan the Mass, you can certainly introduce chant and sacred music. The only suggestion that I will make (and I have made it to my father, since he is a fourth degree knight) is that you defer the traditional “roll call” until after the post-Communion prayer, since this is not part of the Mass, per se.

If I may, I will offer one more suggestion. One way that your council can be of help to the entire parish as a whole is to perhaps help sponsor a workshop or help secure materials on catechizing your parishioners on the revised translation of the Roman Missal. The prayers have been revised and you would serve your parish well if you could help facilitate this. This, I believe, is a key factor to help iimprove the liturgical life of your parish. The prayers have been revised to use a more sacred, elevated language. This means that the Mass settings are going to change as well, to reflect these revisions.

Thanks! I’ll look into all of this. I’m currently working through the GIRM, which has been very helpful. I’ll go through the other resources next. The idea of a workshop on the new translations is very good! I’ll mention that to my priest.