Traditionalizing our OF Mass

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Yes because those who’ve been responsible for such things up till now (liturgical coordinators or whatever) have been known for doing such a good job, and obviously having such a great grasp on Catholic theology.
Is that some sort of attempt at sarcasm? :rolleyes:
Many positions in governing The Church, which are held by laymen, are done on a volunteer, learn as you go basis. CCD is done that way, often the DRE starts that way, the heads of third orders start that way, the Knights themselves start that way. The formation comes after someone has volunteered, which is exactly what Mr. Dunn is doing here. Obviously he’s not taking all our suggestions and automatically enforcing them within the Mass. He’s feeling out options, asking for suggestions, and will implement them as he and his priest see fit.
I’m sorry but no way. Absolutely no way. The individual states “I was picked as coordinator for this year” followed by “I really have no clue about the Novus Ordo.” That’s a recipe for disaster. The Mass is simply far too important to relegate it to a “learn as you go basis” as you suggest. Many parishes have been harmed by this mindset. The OP’s formation should have been started long before he was chosen as a coordinator.

I also see comments like “Novus Ordo” and “Traditionalizing our OF Mass” which tells me the OP is headed for a train-wreck.
 
I also see comments like “Novus Ordo” and “Traditionalizing our OF Mass” which tells me the OP is headed for a train-wreck.
Not necessarily, Luger. Pope Benedict liberalized the EF in order to help restore the sacred nature of the OF. Here is what he wrote to the bishops when he issued Summorum Pontificum:
For that matter, the two Forms of the usage of the Roman Rite can be mutually enriching: new Saints and some of the new Prefaces can and should be inserted in the old Missal. The “Ecclesia Dei” Commission, in contact with various bodies devoted to the usus antiquior, will study the practical possibilities in this regard. The celebration of the Mass according to the Missal of Paul VI will be able to demonstrate, more powerfully than has been the case hitherto, the sacrality which attracts many people to the former usage. The most sure guarantee that the Missal of Paul VI can unite parish communities and be loved by them consists in its being celebrated with great reverence in harmony with the liturgical directives. This will bring out the spiritual richness and the theological depth of this Missal.
If we hold what you wrote, then, it would seem that we could infer that you think that the Holy Father is headed for a train-wreck. That is hardly the case, especially if we read both his MP and Sacramentum Caritatis.
 
I’m sorry but no way. Absolutely no way. The individual states “I was picked as coordinator for this year” followed by “I really have no clue about the Novus Ordo.” That’s a recipe for disaster. The Mass is simply far too important to relegate it to a “learn as you go basis” as you suggest. Many parishes have been harmed by this mindset. The OP’s formation should have been started long before he was chosen as a coordinator.

I also see comments like “Novus Ordo” and “Traditionalizing our OF Mass” which tells me the OP is headed for a train-wreck.
I can’t call the Mass the Novus Ordo? :rolleyes:

And why are you continuing to argue that I have no formation? I’ve already made it clear I have serious formation, but that formation is exclusively in the EF Mass. Are you really claiming I have no transferable knowledge? I was picked for the position b/c the council wants its Novus Ordo Masses to be made more traditional and EF-like, and so does our priest - which is why he and I are in discussion about it in the first place.
 
I can’t call the Mass the Novus Ordo? :rolleyes:

And why are you continuing to argue that I have no formation? I’ve already made it clear I have serious formation, but that formation is exclusively in the EF Mass. Are you really claiming I have no transferable knowledge? I was picked for the position b/c the council wants its Novus Ordo Masses to be made more traditional and EF-like, and so does our priest - which is why he and I are in discussion about it in the first place.
Because it’s not the “Novus Ordo” Mass…

I’m not interested in the rest of your comments. Enjoy yourself.
 
I can’t call the Mass the Novus Ordo? :rolleyes:

And why are you continuing to argue that I have no formation? I’ve already made it clear I have serious formation, but that formation is exclusively in the EF Mass. Are you really claiming I have no transferable knowledge? I was picked for the position b/c the council wants its Novus Ordo Masses to be made more traditional and EF-like, and so does our priest - which is why he and I are in discussion about it in the first place.
What your pastor seeks to do is exactly what Pope Benedict XVI has been exhorting us to do. There is nothing wrong with restoring the sacred, majestic, and dignified nature of the Mass to the Ordinary Form. When the Holy Father issued SP, he did use the term Ordinary Form for the current Mass and Extraordinary Form for what we used to refer to as the TLM.

What matters is that your parish is trying to celebrate the Mass in the manner that it should be celebrated.
 
What your pastor seeks to do is exactly what Pope Benedict XVI has been exhorting us to do. There is nothing wrong with restoring the sacred, majestic, and dignified nature of the Mass to the Ordinary Form. When the Holy Father issued SP, he did use the term Ordinary Form for the current Mass and Extraordinary Form for what we used to refer to as the TLM.

What matters is that your parish is trying to celebrate the Mass in the manner that it should be celebrated.
Exactly. We’re trying to be faithful to the Pope’s (and our) desire to have more sacred worship.

Re: terminology - I used both Novus Ordo and Ordinary Form in my comments above, since it’s obnoxious to constantly write ‘The Mass of Paul VI’ or ‘Novus Ordo Missae.’ Even the liberal priests in my area use the term Novus Ordo. Then again, so do the SSPX. haha. It’s all a matter of context, I guess. 🙂
 
Because it’s not the “Novus Ordo” Mass…

…
Then why does it say “Novus Ordo Missae” on the cover of the missal.
I realize that other terms are also used to describe or name the ordinary form of the Mass, but why the reluctance to accept the term Novus Ordo?
 
Re: terminology - I used both Novus Ordo and Ordinary Form in my comments above, since it’s obnoxious to constantly write ‘The Mass of Paul VI’ or ‘Novus Ordo Missae.’ Even the liberal priests in my area use the term Novus Ordo. Then again, so do the SSPX. haha. It’s all a matter of context, I guess. 🙂
FWIW I personally know several priests who use both missals. Invariably they use the term Novus Ordo.
 
Then why does it say “Novus Ordo Missae” on the cover of the missal.
I realize that other terms are also used to describe or name the ordinary form of the Mass, but why the reluctance to accept the term Novus Ordo?
Ours doesn’t say that.
 
Whether is be on-line or in person or even on the TV or radio, it has been my experience that 99% of those who use the term “Novus Ordo” and especially “N.O. Mass” are self-described “traditionalists” that have at some level, a problem with the Ordinary Form of the Mass.

Often times they like to attack the OF Mass based on their personal experiences – as if they experiences are indicative of how every OF Mass is celebrated worldwide and/or the very form of the OF is deficient or invites abuse when neither are true.

To be honest even the title “Traditionalizing our OF Mass” sets off quiet alarm bells. It’s not about “traditionalising” anything. How absurd and inflammatory is that insinuation? It’s about choosing to include optional elements of the OF Mass that make it more solemn, NOT more “traditional.” Some “traditonalists” seem to think they have the market cornered on solemness and they couldn’t be more wrong.
 
Whether is be on-line or in person or even on the TV or radio, it has been my experience that 99% of those who use the term “Novus Ordo” and especially “N.O. Mass” are self-described “traditionalists” that have at some level, a problem with the Ordinary Form of the Mass.

Often times they like to attack the OF Mass based on their personal experiences – as if they experiences are indicative of how every OF Mass is celebrated worldwide and/or the very form of the OF is deficient or invites abuse when neither are true.

To be honest even the title “Traditionalizing our OF Mass” sets off quiet alarm bells. It’s not about “traditionalising” anything. How absurd and inflammatory is that insinuation? It’s about choosing to include optional elements of the OF Mass that make it more solemn, NOT more “traditional.” Some “traditonalists” seem to think they have the market cornered on solemness and they couldn’t be more wrong.
With all due respect, when we generalize, we tend to lump people into some big caldron and not respect the legitimate concerns that they raise. It is not the OF in and of itself that troubles most people, as I have read these threads. It is the casual manner in which it is celebrated in certain parishes. Redemptionis Sacramentum guarantees the faithful the right to a properly celebrated Mass. Unfortunately, in some areas, in some parishes, this is not happening. It’s more about the alleged “spirit” of Vatican II than it is about the form of the Mass itself.

Again, the Holy Father made his points rather clear when liberalizing the use of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in the EF. He noted that this liberalization will mutually benefit both forms of the Mass. He has mentioned on not a few occasions that we must celebrate the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass with the solemnity, majesty and dignity that is fitting for this august prayer. He also made these points known in Sacramentum Caritatis.

Perhaps you may not have caught the broadcast of the Mass from Westminster Cathedral, but, it was solemn, beautful and majestic and seems to have had all of the elements which the OP (and not a few of us) would like to see in the celebration of the OF in our own parishes and cathedrals. The choir was magnificent. Latin was heavily used, as was incense. Communicants receiving from the Holy Father knelt. Even though the broadcast was several thousand miles and an ocean away from me, the sense of the sacred certainly permeated to my room in South Texas. I only hope that Cathedrals (mine included) will use this Papal liturgy as the benchmark and standard for how the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass should be celebrated.
 
Whether is be on-line or in person or even on the TV or radio, it has been my experience that 99% of those who use the term “Novus Ordo” and especially “N.O. Mass” are self-described “traditionalists” that have at some level, a problem with the Ordinary Form of the Mass.

Often times they like to attack the OF Mass based on their personal experiences – as if they experiences are indicative of how every OF Mass is celebrated worldwide and/or the very form of the OF is deficient or invites abuse when neither are true.

To be honest even the title “Traditionalizing our OF Mass” sets off quiet alarm bells. It’s not about “traditionalising” anything. How absurd and inflammatory is that insinuation? It’s about choosing to include optional elements of the OF Mass that make it more solemn, NOT more “traditional.” Some “traditonalists” seem to think they have the market cornered on solemness and they couldn’t be more wrong.
The Mass was always solemn. The wholesale move away from solemnity was itself a break with the Tradition. All moves back towards solemnity are intrinsically traditional. I’m curious to know what you would consider a more solemn option available in the OF that is lacking in the EF.
 
The Mass was always solemn. The wholesale move away from solemnity was itself a break with the Tradition. All moves back towards solemnity are intrinsically traditional. I’m curious to know what you would consider a more solemn option available in the OF that is lacking in the EF.
You couldn’t be more mistaken…

The least solemn Mass I know of all OF and EF Masses, is an EF Low Mass. If there was ever a sacramental liturgy that was designed (and/or used) as a means to process humanity though the proverbial Mass mill as quickly as possible each Sunday, it was the EF Low Mass. And this was done for centuries. Go back to the fabulous 1950’s. The most common Sunday Mass was hardly solemn. It was a very brief EF Low Mass.

There was hardly a “wholesale move away from solemnity.” There was a move away from the Tridentine Mass but not from solemnity in the Mass. Apples and oranges.

The attempt to equate solemnity with “traditionalism” is repugnant. The OF Mass can be celebrated in a very simple and beautiful manner or it can have more smells and bells than a EF Pontifical Mass – or anything in between. That’s one of the qualities that makes the EF Mass such an intrinsically gorgeous liturgy.
 
You couldn’t be more mistaken…

The least solemn Mass I know of all OF and EF Masses, is an EF Low Mass. If there was ever a sacramental liturgy that was designed (and/or used) as a means to process humanity though the proverbial Mass mill as quickly as possible each Sunday, it was the EF Low Mass. And this was done for centuries. Go back to the fabulous 1950’s. The most common Sunday Mass was hardly solemn. It was a very brief EF Low Mass.
The Low Mass is extremely solemn and reverent, especially relative to the common Liberal offerings.
That’s one of the qualities that makes the EF Mass such an intrinsically gorgeous liturgy.
OK, you finally said something worth quoting. The EF is intrinsically gorgeous.
 
That’s simply not true. Your “liberal” comment is most telling…
Liberal can mean pretty much whatever you want it to mean.
To me, when applied to the Mass, it means stretching the rubrics as far from traditional practice as possible.
The OF is is intrinsically gorgeous as well.
The OF (Novus Ordo) CAN be offered in a solemn manner. Unfortunately it rarely is.
Many, probably most, Catholics have never participated in a normative OF Sunday Mass with Latin, traditional chants, incense, and the Asperges.
 
As sacristan at my parish I try to subtly make suggestions in favor of tradition and of solemnity whenever I feel I have a good chance of a favorable response to an idea or a hint. I tread lightly, however, because pushing it just makes one seem like one of the “crazies”. It would, however, be nice not to have to walk on eggshells about traditional vestments, incense, lace, Latin, &c. We’re Catholics. When did we become so embarrassed about the external elements that identify us as such?

I don’t have much luck with the resident clergy, so whenever we have visiting priests, I make a point of laying our their vestments in advance on the vesting table (can’t even do that for the residents), and, of course, I always select traditional-looking vestments. Once I even set out a fiddleback and the priest actually wore it! You could have knocked me over with a feather. He opted not to don the maniple, however. I’m not sure he knew what it was.

My parish council president and I are conspiring to get rid of the acolytes albs and to replace them with cassocks and surplices. Fingers crossed.

There isn’t much I can do, but I do what I can, when the opportunity arises. There are usually little things one can do to dress a bland OF Mass up a bit, if your clergy are willing to yield to your suggestions. And you seem to have a cooperative priest on your hands. My pastor, on the other hand, is hopelessly lost in the 1970s and doesn’t want to be rescued.

If you want some inspiration and ideas on what the OF form of Mass would look like if it were properly gussied-up, pay a visit to your local Episcopal Church. Pick one reputed to be either “broad” to “high” (not “low”). That should give you a few things to consider. The Episcopalians, unlike the Catholics, aren’t ashamed to look, act, and sound Catholic.
 
If you want some inspiration and ideas on what the OF form of Mass would look like if it were properly gussied-up, pay a visit to your local Episcopal Church. Pick one reputed to be either “broad” to “high” (not “low”). That should give you a few things to consider. The Episcopalians, unlike the Catholics, aren’t ashamed to look, act, and sound Catholic.
I don’t care what they look, act, and sound like during their so-called “masses.”

They advocate gay marriage and abortion, two heinous sins. They align themselves with organizations that teach fuzzy-wuzzy theology about the Lord Jesus Christ.

As far as I’m concerned, they’re wolves in the Lamb’s clothing and will suffer a greater punishment for holding out the form of religion but not the substance.
 
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