Traditions lost or discarded post-Vatican II?

[commenter]

I think the posters on this thread probably had a better understanding of the practices that were phased out than most Catholic of the 1950s and early 1960s. As a child of that time I did not get a good explanation of why the bells were rung at the Consecration, the meaning of the palms, the red light by the Blessed Sacrament, the meaning of holy water, or a great deal of what happened at Mass. Sure, the Latin phrase for “Lift up your hearts” was accompanied by the English translation - if you had a missal - and not everyone did; but even so, I never had any idea why I should lift up my heart at that point, or what on earth that meant.

In our Catholic school, we were taught all the right things, but without much personal understanding of what these practices meant. We were told “Behave in church” as a matter of discipline only. I never heard anyone tell what the Real Presence meant to them, or to me. A lot of good things were communicated by rote memory, or “Do this because we told you to”. No priest, religious, or layperson shared how this practice affected their own life. Looking around my church in 1960, about a third of the people simply said the rosary throughout the Mass. (Of course, I shouldn’t have been looking around, myself).

The lack of a good foundation made it easier for dissenters to push their agendas later, and throw out so much that was, and is, good in itself. Now, as people thankfully fight to restore as much good practice as we can, let us be sure this time to impart a better understanding of what we do, and Who we do it for.

 

[Usige]

In our Catholic school, we were taught all the right things, but without much personal understanding of what these practices meant. We were told “Behave in church” as a matter of discipline only.

The lack of a good foundation made it easier for dissenters to push their agendas later, and throw out so much that was, and is, good in itself. Now, as people thankfully fight to restore as much good practice as we can, let us be sure this time to impart a better understanding of what we do, and Who we do it for.

Very good points. While I was born after VII if someone was only taught something as “do… don’t ask why” then when others said “we don’t have to do that anymore” it likely was easier to toss it.

Even with our youngest kids we are trying to teach them traditions my wife and I never had growing up (neither of us were Catholic as kids). As part of that we are trying to impart not just the what, but also the why. We will do the same once they have grand kids so that hopefully the traditions will stick.

 

[ringil]

No one cares now. Some don’t even kneel after receiving the Eucharist. .

I don’t understand your comment here.

When would one kneel? I would when, maybe re-entering the pew. Are you saying that folks should be kneeling in the Communion line after receiving. I have never seen this in any parish.

 

[ringil]

I wonder if people still silently say my Lord and my God when the priest raises the Host?

I say this. Hard to say how many do.

 

[fnr]

Keep in mind that over the last 50 years, more took place than the Second Vatican Council to change the behaviors of Catholics, at least in the United States. Traditionalists tend to attribute all the changes in behaviors of Catholics to one element of Vatican II or its immediate follow-ups (e.g., the mass of Paul VI). However, it’s important to keep in mind the following issues (apologies to non-US readers for the US-centric nature of the list):

• Growing availability of 24 hour media
• Suburbanization
• Personal computers
• The civil rights movement
• The Vietnam War and peace movement
• Richard Nixon’s “Southern Strategy”
• Second Wave feminism (since Friedan’s 1963 The Feminine Mystique)
• The environmental movement
• The Sexual Revolution
• The professionalization of the military (and end of the draft)
• The reassertion of Protestant Evangelicals in public life (since 1976)
• The reassertion of Hayekian ideology in opposition to Keynesian public finance.
• The internet

Overall, Catholics in the U.S. have been widely influenced by the culture around us, to the point that we now tend to mimic the general population in economic status, consumer behavior, and voting patterns. We’re allowing the rule of “demography is destiny” to dictate our patterns.

 

[Martin_Pastore]

Hi! great question and observations!!
One thing I notice…because I was educated to do so ,and continue to do so…and is rarely if ever followed… the practice of genuflection.ie (quick drop,one knee,bless self)when passing in front of the altar ,or before entering pew and exiting the pew.

It is ingrained in me…and even though I have a bad knee from a Line of Duty Injury ,I’m not stopping. I guess it’s not taught any more.

Many/most, Churches don’t have Holy Water at the entrances to bless ones self.
I figured that was a just public health precaution thing for the past few years ie.H1N1etc.
However, in a recent and first trip to Europe (Italy,France and Spain.) all the churches had holy Water at the entrances or in large fonts just inside.(Isaw men genuflecting there but it was scarce and most were in the 50 or older crowd like myself and not common)

Right now I live outside the states, the Mass in not in my native language,I follow along with old prayer books,with older wording to prayers litugy etc.

I attended Mass recently in the states(USA) and the Mass ,especially the wording of everything had changed so much, I felt lost, out of place, and a bit scared.

God Bless Us All !
Martin Pastore.

 

[mommy_k]

In my opinion, for parents of younger children it is an asset to their spiritual development to attend mass in a more traditional parish, for so many reasons.

I was in school after vatican II but my grandmother bought me a personal missal with different colored ribbons. It was in Latin and English.

Not many parishes have first friday masses either.

 

[Martin_Pastore]

Been there done that. I lived through the ‘spirit’ of Vatican II thing with the bongos and guitars and…no thanks.

Anyway this thread is about traditions prior to Vatican II so we’ll leave it at that.

Amen Johnny…I remember mass being a solemn event (in my parish)until about 1974 (even in the vernacular with few changes.) then boom it was like “The Partrige Family” was running the Mass…Ugh. And boy did people vote with their feet… wow 1974… tempus fugit!

 

[Martin_Pastore]

I can’t think of any.

Peace,
Ed

No disrespect Ed…but you’re listed as a “forum elder.”
“I can’t think of any”…
Is it maybe ??..ie ??? I can’t think of any because I was born so many years later so I have no reference point.
I mean look at all the responses… as a "forum elder’ are you not expected to lead with a little better example? How does that reflect on this site?

It is a very valid point and question being put forth by a young person who is interested in Catholicism.
That quip was the best answer you could muster? Really.
Remember the old saying about “titles”…forum elder. “heavy is the head that wears a crown.”

Peace to you. Peace to us all.

 

[Tigg]

The Rosary is not dead. In fact I think it is alive and well. At least where I live.

Yes, Mary has her army! And four years ago, Perpetual Eucharistic Adoration was instituted in our diocese by a new bishop. The liberal parishes do not participate, yet still, except in the wee hours of the morning, most times are covered.

Prayers after Low Mass. My current parish says them even after an OF but that was not the case in previous parishes I have lived in.

Aren’t you the blessed one!

Keep in mind that all of these things are piety, not holiness. Piety has to do with religious obligations and expressions. For the human person, holiness is a decrease in sin and an increase in virtue.
-Tim-

And piety is one of the 7 gifts of the Holy Spirit!

In my opinion, for parents of younger children it is an asset to their spiritual development to attend mass in a more traditional parish, for so many reasons.
.

I agree and those in non-trad parishes should find one where they can register their kids in Totus Tuus for a couple of weeks.

 

[TimothyH]

And piety is one of the 7 gifts of the Holy Spirit!

That’s wonderful.

All the gifts of the Holy Spirit - fortitude, wisdom, piety, knowledge, counsel, understanding, fear of the Lord - are given for one purpose, sanctification. They are given so that we might become holy.

Piety is not sanctification.

-Tim-

 

[Tigg]

Other losses include Gregorian chant (which we are supposed to do, but don’t) the loss of sacred Catholic music in favor of Protestant, destruction of Catholic architecture (such as communion rails) loss of male only altar boys…and we used to celebrate certain feast days (mainly Marian) even in our homes during mealtimes. We used to use sacramentals more, such as the wearing of medals and scapulars (I still wear a scapular being consecrated to Our Lady.)

I was raised Protestant and spent the first 47 years in Evangelical Protestant churches. I never learned how to do this. It isn’t dogma or doctrine, so it wasn’t taught during our RCIA.

If Catholics want traditions to return, they need to teach others. We can’t learn what we’ve never heard.

Good point; this is so true and the lack of communication has caused a distancing between trads and the modern Church. Although I must say, I have at times experienced a certain derision from the contemporary for the past as if to say the “old school” and pious devotions no longer have any meaning for us.

 

[commenter]

As a boy in the late 1950s, I found out my present was going to be a missal. I imagined some little device that I could set up in my backyard, and shoot maybe 50 feet in the air.

Wasn’t that kind of missal.

 

[felsguy]

No disrespect Ed…but you’re listed as a “forum elder.”
“I can’t think of any”…
Is it maybe ??..ie ??? I can’t think of any because I was born so many years later so I have no reference point.
I mean look at all the responses… as a "forum elder’ are you not expected to lead with a little better example? How does that reflect on this site?

It is a very valid point and question being put forth by a young person who is interested in Catholicism.
That quip was the best answer you could muster? Really.
Remember the old saying about “titles”…forum elder. “heavy is the head that wears a crown.”

Peace to you. Peace to us all.

Martin, apparently you misunderstand what the titles on CAF signify. The title “forum elder” means that a person has been on CAF for at least 5 years and has made at least 15,000 posts, nothing more, nothing less. (This is not meant as a reflection on Ed.)

Peace

 

[johnnyc176]

Good point; this is so true and the lack of communication has caused a distancing between trads and the modern Church.

Yes but the old traditions were suppressed…there was nothing to communicate.

Although I must say, I have at times experienced a certain derision from the contemporary for the past as if to say the “old school” and pious devotions no longer have any meaning for us.

Well the ‘spirit’ of Vatican II crowd had it their way for so many years and when Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI freed up the TLM they reacted.

 

[Martin_Pastore]

Martin, apparently you misunderstand what the titles on CAF signify. The title “forum elder” means that a person has been on CAF for at least 5 years and has made at least 15,000 posts, nothing more, nothing less. (This is not meant as a reflection on Ed.)

Peace

Hey Felsguy,

Thank you very,very much for setting me straight on this point!!

I was beyond misunderstanding the title thing, I was totally ignorant, and didn’t have a clue!!

I must confess, I was getting a little worried about CAF. As I was in error, giving all kinds of serious significance to these titles…and after readings several hundred of threads, more than few of these “titled people”, share some really way out, stuff,(to say the least).
I was beginning to wonder “What’s going on here?”

Thanks again, very much, Felsguy. Peace to you ,and all of us. and god bless CAF!!
Respectfully, Martin Pastore.

 

[Cat]

Other losses include Gregorian chant (which we are supposed to do, but don’t) the loss of sacred Catholic music in favor of Protestant, destruction of Catholic architecture (such as communion rails) loss of male only altar boys…and we used to celebrate certain feast days (mainly Marian) even in our homes during mealtimes. We used to use sacramentals more, such as the wearing of medals and scapulars (I still wear a scapular being consecrated to Our Lady.)


Good point; this is so true and the lack of communication has caused a distancing between trads and the modern Church. Although I must say, I have at times experienced a certain derision from the contemporary for the past as if to say the “old school” and pious devotions no longer have any meaning for us.

I enjoy hearing about the traditions and would never dream of deriding them.

However, I would definitely respond in a cool manner if someone tried to tell me that I had to practice a certain tradition(s), or that I am missing out on something if I do not practice a certain tradition(s), or if someone looks down on me because I am not interested in taking up a certain tradition(s).

If my parish pastor or my diocese or the Church institutes the practice of a certain tradition(s), then yes, I’m on board because I respect the Christ-established authority of the Church. I trust that the Church will make good decisions that will help me become holy and get to heaven.

But all of us who are laypeople are just trying to help each other. When it comes to traditions, we are free to utilize those which help us, and pass over, with a pleasant smile and friendly attitude, those that do not help us.

 

[ProVobis]

Sure, the Latin phrase for “Lift up your hearts” was accompanied by the English translation - if you had a missal - and not everyone did; but even so, I never had any idea why I should lift up my heart at that point, or what on earth that meant.

You had good reason because Sursum corda actually translates into “Upwards hearts” or “Turn our heart upwards.” It’s directional. At least that’s the way it is in the Polish. Somewhere along the line someone stuck in “Lift” and it’s been that way since in the English.

 

[Tigg]

Yes but the old traditions were suppressed…there was nothing to communicate.

I acknowledge this is true, but authentic grace cannot be stifled; it will flow freely to those who are open. It has happened in our own family. Recently our daughter, a married woman busy with her own pursuits, casually announced in phone conversation one day that she had been convicted in her heart while standing in the communion line not to receive CITH. She was stunned at the certainty of the message coming so quickly out of the blue and with such persuasion that she was obedient. This… in a parish so different from our own it is unrecognizable. She is now being drawn to read the writings of the desert fathers and those stuffy old admonitions of the spiritual masters. Much to her surprise, she is on a new journey.

Trads should communicate with those who are open to enrichment. The treasury of gems that were once cast away can be re-examined for what they really are.

 

[Tigg]

I enjoy hearing about the traditions and would never dream of deriding them.

However, I would definitely respond in a cool manner if someone tried to tell me that I had to practice a certain tradition(s), or that I am missing out on something if I do not practice a certain tradition(s), or if someone looks down on me because I am not interested in taking up a certain tradition(s).

If my parish pastor or my diocese or the Church institutes the practice of a certain tradition(s), then yes, I’m on board because I respect the Christ-established authority of the Church. I trust that the Church will make good decisions that will help me become holy and get to heaven.

But all of us who are laypeople are just trying to help each other. When it comes to traditions, we are free to utilize those which help us, and pass over, with a pleasant smile and friendly attitude, those that do not help us.

Good post and even I have to agree that certain attitudes do not promote what they intend and it comes from both sides. I wish we could just let God work His wonders and not have these hostile camps among ourselves.