Traditions of Man - Divorce and Remarriage

[malachi_a_serva]

Eden:

Actually, no one is required to receive the Sacrament of Matrimony. Some people never marry and their soul is not at risk. Are you asking if one will go to hell for never marrying? Most Catholics will never receive all seven sacraments. As I will never be ordained, I will never receive the Sacrament of Holy Orders. You don’t seem to understand Sacraments from your concern about others being valid.

No I am referring to the sacrament of Baptism, the sacrament of first communion, the sacrament of confession, the sacrament of confirmation.

Sacrament of Baptism is needed for salvation (aside from loopholes the Catholic church has), receiving the eurchrist is required for salvation, the sacrement of confession is required for salvation.

Why no tribunal to ensure these sacriemnts are valid and were receive valid? Ones eternal soul is at stake. However, there is a tribunal for the sacrament of marriagem, and yet this has nothing to do with one’s salvation, just the appeasment of living people - to make them happy.

It would appear the church’s priorities are misguided.

 

[Eden]

malachi_a_serva:

No I am referring to the sacrament of Baptism, the sacrament of first communion, the sacrament of confession, the sacrament of confirmation.

Sacrament of Baptism is needed for salvation (aside from loopholes the Catholic church has), receiving the eurchrist is required for salvation, the sacrement of confession is required for salvation.

Why no tribunal to ensure these sacriemnts are valid and were receive valid? Ones eternal soul is at stake. However, there is a tribunal for the sacrament of marriagem, and yet this has nothing to do with one’s salvation, just the appeasment of living people - to make them happy.

It would appear the church’s priorities are misguided.

I’m not getting the parallel to Matrimony.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Eden:

An annulment is not a divorce, it is a recognition that a valid marriage never took place.

If it is not valid, do you get back your money you gave to the Priest?

Seriously…or is that amount deducted off the amount request for the annullmetn? Sorry to sound trival or immature, but things that come with a price tag…

 

[Eden]

malachi_a_serva:

If it is not valid, do you get back your money you gave to the Priest?

Seriously…

That is a donation to the church. Why would you take your donation to the church back because the person you married did so under false pretenses?

You don’t seem to mind at all that your church recognizes divorce.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Eden:

I’m not getting the parallel to Matrimony.

Why is there a tribunal to determine if the sacrament of marriage is valid but no tribunal to determine the ones I mentioned are valid?

Seems like the church’s concern is misplaced.

Consequences of invalid Baptism, confession, communion, …Hell!

Consequences of invalid marriage…earthly unhappiness because one cannot get remarried.

I would think if there was a tribunal…the more important issueds would be for what it was for.

 

[Eden]

malachi_a_serva:

Why is there a tribunal to determine if the sacrament of marriage is valid but no tribunal to determine the ones I mentioned are valid?

Seems like the church’s concern is misplaced.

Consequences of invalid Baptism, confession, communion, …Hell!

Consequences of invalid marriage…earthly unhappiness because one cannot get remarried.

I would think if there was a tribunal…the more important issueds would be for what it was for.

You just repeated the same thing again and I still don’t get it. Unlike other Sacraments, Matrimony is between two people. For a marriage to be contracted, the two parties must exchange valid matrimonial consent. If they do not, the marriage is null.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Eden:

That is a donation to the church. Why would you take your donation to the church back because the person you married did so under false pretenses?

You don’t seem to mind at all that your church recognizes divorce.

Where do you get that my church recognizes divorce?

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Eden:

You don’t seem to mind at all that your church recognizes divorce.

I believe the Cartholic Church recognizes divorce, they just call it Annullment.

 

[LittleDeb]

As an outsider reading, it seems some of the confusions are based on current, civil law having a faulty understanding of the terms it uses so loosely. Since many Bible-based religions are newer, they tend to interpret the Bible based on current, civil understanding of laws, rather than the original understanding of laws.

1. Marriage is the only Sacrament to be investigated by a tribunal because it is the only Sacrament where the participants are the ministers. In non-Catholic Christian religions the pastor “pronounces” man and wife. In Catholicism the couple ministers the Sacrament. The priest or deacon is a witness for the Church. One of the things being investigated is, “did both parties have the authority to adminster the Sacrament.?”

I hope this is a start. There are also the contradictions of “Biblical divorce loopholes” too. (i.e. one book says only the husband can sue for divorce, while another says either may sue.) These confusions come from many Christian churches lacking a deep historical understanding of Scripture.

 

[Eden]

She had an affair. The marriage ended. The church told me “s*it happens”.

Here is an early Christian:

Hermas

“What then shall the husband do, if the wife continue in this disposition [adultery]? Let him divorce her, and let the husband remain single. But if he divorce his wife and marry another, he too commits adultery” (*The Shepherd *4:1:6 [A.D. 80]).

 

[Eden]

malachi_a_serva:

I believe the Cartholic Church recognizes divorce, they just call it Annullment.

This isn’t just semantics. “Divorce destroys something that was; Annulments recognize that something never was.”

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Eden:

You just repeated the same thing again and I still don’t get it. Unlike other Sacraments, Matrimony is between two people. For a marriage to be contracted, the two parties must exchange valid matrimonial consent. If they do not, the marriage is null.

Why is the Catholic Church so concered that it has some Tribunal to determine if a Sacrement - the sacrement of marriage - is or was valid?..when…it has no tribunal to determine if the sacrements of Baptism, Confession or Comminion are Valid.

Yes, they only involve the one person undertaking them, but what if that persone is not “sincere” in the intent and has “no good faith” in truly accepting what they are? Then they are invalid anf the person will be going to Hell.

My question, why is the Catholic Church not concerned to ensure other sacrements are valid? But just the marriage sacrement? Too me it appears because ones eternal state is not the item of concern, just a earthly, happy life.

Have babies been Baptised by parents who respond to raise them in the faith, that they believe in God etc…etc… What if one of them, or both of them are not sincere? Or they do not have good faith? That they have no intent of raising the Child Catholic let alone living a Catholic life themselves…only doing it to appease family or because that is “just what is done”.

The same for communion por confession. What if the child ids only doing it because his parents are making him…he is too scared not too, HE does not want to…take communion, have confession, get confirmed…etc…only doing it because his parents are making him. No good faith, no genuine sincerity. Result = invalid sacrament.

Why is the church not concerned about htes and have a tribunial to determine the sacraments are valid. i.e. by questioning, investigating, talking to family, friend etc…just like it does for an annullment.

Seems misplaced priorities.

It would appear, the only reason there is annullmtnt is so that Catholics can remarry and appear not to break any Christian rules.

If not, why no tribunals for the sacrements I mentioned?

 

[malachi_a_serva]

“Divorce destroys something that was; Annulments recognize that something never was.”

Hi Eden, I do appreciate your time and responses, I know it is getting late.

Can you provide me with scripture to prove this quote?

 

[Eden]

malachi_a_serva:

Hi Eden, I do appreciate your time and responses, I know it is getting late.

Can you provide me with scripture to prove this quote?

Again, post 19 shows to biblically based reasons for declaring a marriage null.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Eden:

Again, post 19 shows to biblically based reasons for declaring a marriage null.

Those verses do not prove “annullment vs divorce”. Please show where it is in scripture or contrasted.

 

[BlestOne]

LittleDeb:

As an outsider reading, it seems some of the confusions are based on current, civil law having a faulty understanding of the terms it uses so loosely. Since many Bible-based religions are newer, they tend to interpret the Bible based on current, civil understanding of laws, rather than the original understanding of laws.

1. Marriage is the only Sacrament to be investigated by a tribunal because it is the only Sacrament where the participants are the ministers. In non-Catholic Christian religions the pastor “pronounces” man and wife. In Catholicism the couple ministers the Sacrament. The priest or deacon is a witness for the Church. One of the things being investigated is, “did both parties have the authority to adminster the Sacrament.?”

I hope this is a start. There are also the contradictions of “Biblical divorce loopholes” too. (i.e. one book says only the husband can sue for divorce, while another says either may sue.) These confusions come from many Christian churches lacking a deep historical understanding of Scripture.

Excellent post and the answer to Malachai’s q’s.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Plus, would you be fine than with non-Catholic denominations having “annullments”?

 

[malachi_a_serva]

LittleDeb:

As an outsider reading, it seems some of the confusions are based on current, civil law having a faulty understanding of the terms it uses so loosely. Since many Bible-based religions are newer, they tend to interpret the Bible based on current, civil understanding of laws, rather than the original understanding of laws.

1. Marriage is the only Sacrament to be investigated by a tribunal because it is the only Sacrament where the participants are the ministers. In non-Catholic Christian religions the pastor “pronounces” man and wife. In Catholicism the couple ministers the Sacrament. The priest or deacon is a witness for the Church. One of the things being investigated is, “did both parties have the authority to adminster the Sacrament.?”

I hope this is a start. There are also the contradictions of “Biblical divorce loopholes” too. (i.e. one book says only the husband can sue for divorce, while another says either may sue.) These confusions come from many Christian churches lacking a deep historical understanding of Scripture.

Hello LittleDeb, (and for all readers…if my responses seem abrupt …just because I am tired…sorry).

What about:

what if that persone is not “sincere” in the intent and has “no good faith” in truly accepting what they are? Then they are invalid anf the person will be going to Hell.

My question, why is the Catholic Church not concerned to ensure other sacrements are valid? But just the marriage sacrement? Too me it appears because ones eternal state is not the item of concern, just a earthly, happy life.

Have babies been Baptised by parents who respond to raise them in the faith, that they believe in God etc…etc… What if one of them, or both of them are not sincere? Or they do not have good faith? That they have no intent of raising the Child Catholic let alone living a Catholic life themselves…only doing it to appease family or because that is “just what is done”.

The same for communion por confession. What if the child ids only doing it because his parents are making him…he is too scared not too, HE does not want to…take communion, have confession, get confirmed…etc…only doing it because his parents are making him. No good faith, no genuine sincerity. Result = invalid sacrament.

Why is the church not concerned about htes and have a tribunial to determine the sacraments are valid. i.e. by questioning, investigating, talking to family, friend etc…just like it does for an annullment.

 

[Eden]

malachi_a_serva:

Those verses do not prove “annullment vs divorce”. Please show where it is in scripture or contrasted.

I don’t get what you are asking. It proves it for me so maybe you could clarify exactly what you are looking for.

 

[Eden]

malachi_a_serva:

Plus, would you be fine than with non-Catholic denominations having “annullments”?

Christ elevates matrimony to a Sacrament. Is it even a Sacrament in your church?