Traditions of Man - Prohibition of Alcohol

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Eden:
If someone individually finds that they cannot drink moderately, then they most certainly should not drink. But drinking alcohol is not intrinsically evil.

Fr. John Corapi has a great series on Addictions and he says the exact same thing. The evil is addiction though, not alcohol itself.

www.fathercorapi.com/index.aspx
Yet, I was never addicted. I drank because it diminished my inhabitions, and I knew it would and did. When I didn’t want to indulge in that behavior, I didn’t/don’t drink. Not trying to disagree with you, just that one need not be addicted for its evils to do its dirty work.

I still wonder what is GOD’s legal limit. Drunkards shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. I Corr. 6:10. What is GOD’s limit?..one, two? Best stay away. A few glasses of wine, one becomes “tipsy”, maybe even after one…is that a drunkard? Just thoughts to ponder.
 
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malachi_a_serva:
Yet, I was never addicted. I drank because it diminished my inhabitions, and I knew it would and did. When I didn’t want to indulge in that behavior, I didn’t/don’t drink. Not trying to disagree with you, just that one need not be addicted for its evils to do its dirty work.
One would not be drinking in moderation, however, to have been impaired in the way you describe. I take it you mean you did not just have a glass or two of wine at dinner.
I still wonder what is GOD’s legal limit. Drunkards shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. I Corr. 6:10. What is GOD’s limit?..one, two? Best stay away. A few glasses of wine, one becomes “tipsy”, maybe even after one…is that a drunkard? Just thoughts to ponder.
Are you denying that it says God gave us wine to enjoy in moderation in the Bible? It is clearly in the Bible but you seem to want to say it isn’t so.
 
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Eden:
One would not be drinking in moderation, however, to have been impaired in the way you describe. I take it you mean you did not just have a glass or two of wine at dinner.
I guess I am saying I wasn’t addicted, cause I don’;t drink now, never had the “urge” or “need” to drink…I just used it to lower my inhabitions…others as well…then OPPS…really if booze was not ther…I never could have partook in what I did in my past (many years ago). That is me, I couldn’t have, not speaking for others. Me…needed alcohol to partake.(bar scene is what I am referring too)…music, booze, dancing,…thoughts…OPPS.
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Eden:
Are you denying that it says God gave us wine to enjoy in moderation in the Bible? It is clearly in the Bible but you seem to want to say it isn’t so.
Not denying, just pondering, what if “one” is OK, two puts us in Hell?.. It would be good to know what GOD’s definition of “Drunkard” is. Because that is the only definition that matters.

ps…sure wish we had spell check. 🙂
 
I’m still waiting for the Biblical evidence…

before anyone else goes making crazy assertions about the wine Jesus made being non-alcoholic, or being merely grape juice, please consider the context and history. Grape Juice was not invented for over a millenium after the time of Christ (the pasteurization process hadn’t been discovered yet). Even more importantly, Jesus was a Jewish man and would have observed all of the Laws of Judaism perfectly. If you already know ANYTHING about the Jewish Passover then you should know where I am going with this…WINE (not grape juice or the ever mythological “non-alcoholic wine”) is a REQUIREMENT for the Passover, and has been a requirement for many thousands of years…quite a few of those thousand years were before the birth of Jesus, and it has not changed one bit in the 2000 years after His death. The Last Supper (or Lord’s Supper, for all of our Protestant bretheren) was the Passover meal. There is absolutely NO shred of evidence (outside of speculation) that Jesus made or drank anything other than wine, as anyone would understand the word. Again, noone is saying that you must drink alcohol; conversely, many of us have affirmed that to abstain from alcohol for the sake of holiness is to be commended. But to OFFICIALLY and AUTHORITATIVELY declare it a SIN, especially while claiming that the Bible and ONLY the Bible is to be the sole source of Doctrine is going to require a great deal of substantiation. I have yet to see it substantiated as a SIN.
 
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malachi_a_serva:
Not denying, just pondering, what if “one” is OK, two puts us in Hell?.. It would be good to know what GOD’s definition of “Drunkard” is. Because that is the only definition that matters.
I would expect that if you have one or two glasses of wine with dinner, you would be fine.
 
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Eden:
I would expect that if you have one or two glasses of wine with dinner, you would be fine.
As Homer Simpson would say…wooooohoooooo!

🙂

But I don’t watch TV. 😃
 
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Eden:
Some fundamentalists have endorsed strict codes of conduct that prohibit even moderate consumption of alcohol and tobacco, dancing, mixed bathing, gambling, or engaging in secular cultural activities such as watching movies or listening to rock and roll music. These codes may also require adherents to dress in certain ways going beyond simple modesty (for example, by prohibiting women from wearing pants or men from having long hair). In most cases, fundamentalists draw a connection between these features of the surrounding culture and the immoral or unbelieving way of life that they feel is represented by them, and by avoiding conformity to the secular world in such small but signal ways, they hope to protect their souls from corruption and call the world to salvation and holiness, by their example and “testimony.”

www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist_Christianity
Although I agree with your sentiments I would never use Wikepeidaas a source. It is a compilation of peoples opinions not facts
 
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estesbob:
Although I agree with your sentiments I would never use Wikepeidaas a source. It is a compilation of peoples opinions not facts
Thanks. I’ll take not of that. Although I haven’t seen anyone dispute the legitimacy of this particular entry. Usually if the topic is controversial it will indicate this at the top of the page.
 
“We thank God for beer and burgundy by not drinking too much of them.”
  • GK Chesterton
 
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Eden:
Some fundamentalists have endorsed strict codes of conduct that prohibit even moderate consumption of alcohol and tobacco, dancing, mixed bathing, gambling, or engaging in secular cultural activities such as watching movies or listening to rock and roll music. These codes may also require adherents to dress in certain ways going beyond simple modesty (for example, by prohibiting women from wearing pants or men from having long hair). In most cases, fundamentalists draw a connection between these features of the surrounding culture and the immoral or unbelieving way of life that they feel is represented by them, and by avoiding conformity to the secular world in such small but signal ways, they hope to protect their souls from corruption and call the world to salvation and holiness, by their example and “testimony.”

www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist_Christianity
Peace.

Rock and roll music? Remember when people were “outraged” with The Beatles? I’ll bet most people wish they were back to rescue us from the pop and hip-hop and rap culture permeating the airwaves.

Peace.
 
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Fredricks:
Dismissing just the few studies as “not credible” does not make it so. Do you have quantitative or qualitative research that shows otherwise?
You continue to impugn my character, which is your choice.
You do not know me. You do not know what we do for children.
We never ask anyone to join a church, I work for the government, cannot do that. I do see people in the community and they know where to find me.
Your hostility towards me comes from something other than Christ friend.
Your hypocricy is palpable and frothing like a beer poured to fast. (sorry to be flippant but I couldn’t resist). You are quick to make flippant generalizations but sure react when people just try to understand what comes out of your mount/computer.

From Fredricks:
  1. “When I see Catholics gloryifying or being flippant about the abuses heaped upon people because of drinking” (Please site one person on this thread who was flippant about abuses and the harm it causes people)
  2. “it strengthens my views about Catholicism on certain moral issues.” (Wow, we do nothing more than contend that isn’t Biblical that alcohol be banned and contend that moderation is appropriate and he projects this onto morality)
  3. “Not applicable to us and we do a lot more to help mothers in our community then the Catholics have ever done, except for an occasional priest who likes to appear on the news in our community when they need an interview. That argument rings completely hollow around these parts.” (You are quick to assert that your community is different but then brand all Catholics as being unconcerned with social justice issues because you believe they are not as active as other protestant denominations. If they aren’t as active as they should be, I apologize. We don’t claim to be perfect. But considering your anti-Catholic bigotry, I suspect that you just dismiss their activities with the same prejudice that you did to the “occassional Priest”.)
  4. “I think that anyone who would try to advocate moderate drinking is living a fantasy world, devoid of reality outside of their sphere.” (Well, besides not being very respectful of people who might have formed their opinion based on their own life experience (Estesbob’s personal struggle w/ addiction and ministry to the recovering/addicted at least deserves some respect in my opinion), I find this hilarious because his primary justification is in reference to his very specific and parochial experience in an urban setting raft w/ gangs and other violence. Frederick, if you think that the exclusive cause of these problems is drugs and alcohol, it is you who is living in a fantasy world. All abuse starts with a disordered relationship with themself, those around them, and with God. Abuse is a manifestation of these disorders).
 
May I, from Ireland, just state some facts, please?
No bias; no judgement: I have been in Ireland four years; and many talk with me about problems etc.

Here, we are 95% Roman Catholic.
Over 50 % population have a major drinking problem. ie alcoholism.
Ditto a major nicotine addiction ( did you know tobacco contains formaldehyde…)
This country has become rich very fast and being well - off is not being handled well just now.
On St Patrick’s Day, bars and pubs etc were asked not sell alcohol until after 4 pm to try to avoid the drunken riots of previous years. If you want the statistics, there are entries on my weblog. www.xanga.com/AnchoressNun/
As these attest, it is the youth of Ireland that is being worst hit; I may have missed it; please forgive me if so, but no one has mentioned “peer pressure” in this thread.

It is very hard for young folk to resist when their close friends urge them; and when there is a family member who drinks it becomes harder still then.
Yes, if you as an adult can handle moderate drinking; but a teenager being tempted might say, " Well, my aunt ( or whoever) says a few drinks is fine".

And, sadly in these modern times, where drink is often drugs are also. And from drugs there is all to often no turning back as anyone who has worked with drug addicts knows.
Each weekend here, up to seven young people are killed on the roads driving home from clubs.
A predictable carnage.
Each week there are around 30 drunk drivng arrests. For an island of this size, a shocking figure. At Christmas it was many hundreds.

I shop often in the early hours. I was at a large 24 hr supermarket early on St Patrick’s Day; the security manager talked with me. Said the "festivities had started already. At 2.30 am, three coach loads of young teenagers, from an under age disco, had arrived to buy drink. There were not drunk - yet, but were stoned on drugs. Drink and drugs are easily available here.
And shops cannot refuse to sell; there were adults with them to do the buying of course.

I find it hard to type this through tears, to be honest.

These are our children; we need to protect and teach them that their young bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit.

Young male suicide is an epidemic here; two last year in the small viallge where I live. I don;t have the correlation between drinking and this, but alcohol is known to be a depressant and is totally socially acceptable.
One of the men who killed himself last year was a drinker. It is the Irish tradition…

Legally enforced prohibiition never works, does it? Because there are always vultures around. Always those who delight in getting young folk hooked, for the money.
Education by example has always been a more effective weapon.
I don’t know what the situation here re Church social clubs is; but certainly they sell drink.

Often for young ones it is too late by the time they find out they cannot drink in moderation; addiction is a sneaky snake like that as many know.
Worms its way in…
And the cost alone in a world where children die each day from lack of food would also deter me.
As a teacher, I know that the young need firm and loving and reasoned guidelines from those they trust.

Just some thoughts.
 
Jeanette L:
Every good thing that was created by God can be abused and used to destroy human lives (can you say Fried Chicken?). If you prohibited everything that can and is used or abused contrary to it’s created good, there would be nothing left. That is why Catholics, and a lot of non-fundamentalist Christians argue against the strict prohibition of anything that is not in itself intrinsically evil. Legalism doesn’t pass the Bible smell test. 😉

Instead of forbidding things that are not in and of themselves intrinsically evil, we would be wiser to educate our children, and our culture as to how we can use all good gifts of God in moderation and give him the thanks and glory for his good gifts.
I read an article years ago about the history of the Catholic church in America. In the 1800’s the Catholic church tried to enact policies to prohibit drinking alcohol among its members just like the Protestant churches. That was because there was so much alcoholism among Irish and German Catholics.The measure failed miserably because Irish Catholics threatened to leave the church enmass. The Catholic church never tried prohibition again.

Does that answer your question?
 
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Alfie:
I read an article years ago about the history of the Catholic church in America. In the 1800’s the Catholic church tried to enact policies to prohibit drinking alcohol among its members just like the Protestant churches. That was because there was so much alcoholism among Irish and German Catholics.The measure failed miserably because Irish Catholics threatened to leave the church enmass. The Catholic church never tried prohibition again.

Does that answer your question?
Will you please cite your claims? The church has always discouraged excessive use of alcohol but it would not and never has encouraged the prohibition of alcohol.
 
Deuteronomy 14:26 And thou shalt buy with the same money whatsoever pleaseth thee, either of the herds or of sheep, wine also and strong drink, and all that thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat before the Lord thy God, and shalt feast, thou and thy house:

Deuteronomy 29:6 You have not eaten bread, nor have you drunk wine or strong drink: that you might know that I am the Lord your God.

Proverbs 31:6 Give strong drink to them that are sad: and wine to them that are grieved in mind:

The scriptural prohibition is against drunkeness…not the drink itself. So moderation is the Biblical rule…not abstinence.

That said, the person that knows that he can’t handle his drink and that it is an occasion of sin to him should wisely avoid it. That’s just common sense.
 
Semper Fi:
Will you please cite your claims? The church has always discouraged excessive use of alcohol but it would not and never has encouraged the prohibition of alcohol.
An excellent article on the relations of the temperance movement and the Catholic Church from the Old Catholic Encyclopedia:

newadvent.org/cathen/14482a.htm
 
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Talitha:
Here, we are 95% Roman Catholic.
Over 50 % population have a major drinking problem. ie alcoholism.
Although you claim there is no bias, your post indicates that alcoholism is related to catholicism.

Your stats seem a bit off. Russia leads the world in alcoholism and even they were not at 50% (about 30% of men and 15% of women in Russia are alcoholics.

Now for most of the last century Russa was communist (athiest).

The stats I found for Ireland indicate a 5% alcholism rate. That seems to be comparable with the rest of Europe and the U.S.

UPDATE:
Found some WHO data that lists per capita alcohol consumption from the year 2000.
Ireland is pretty high - 4th in the world behind Ugand, Luxemburg, and Czech Republic.
I find it interesting the Russia is 23rd on the list, yet has a the highest rate of alcoholism.
Hmm.
 
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Talitha:
May I, from Ireland, just state some facts, please?
No bias; no judgement: I have been in Ireland four years; and many talk with me about problems etc.
You are missing the point of this thread, which is that for people who are able to drink in moderation, drinking is not sinful according to the Bible.
 
My apologies; I realised too late to amend that I had posted this in the wrong thread…

No, no bias, although I do see that that could have been assumed. Juxtaposition does not mean there is a direct connection.

Although this makes a point…
212.2.162.45/news/story.asp?j=48040512&p=48x4x7x4&n=48040772

statistics can be made to prove anything. The figures I quoted are from Irish health authority sources.

Once I was at a Church committee meeting planning a fete. There was to be a bottle stall. Someone had given a bottle of whiskey. One lady, raddled and thin, was shocked. She had an alcoholic husband. Another lady contested her plea saying that her daughter when a baby, had been kept alive by drops of whiskey ( both ladies were old then and I was young) The row that developed was cataclysmic.
I know now as i did then that having that bottle on the stall was not wise or loving.

I am wary of using the Bible to argue a point. But the verse that occurred then does so now; that we should travel at the pace of the weakest lamb. These smashed children are these weak lmabs. What matters a drink against that if abstaining can help teach them the dangers?

To me, the basis of all sin is lack of love for Jesus; for others. I can say to young ones, why I don’t drink. What it does to a body; I can do so gently. If I drank even moderately I could not do that.
The example is all; if they respect what I do the chances are they will hold back.
Eden. if you are happy with what you do fine and good. Bless you in it. And I mean that sincerely. But others are not and we too are blessed in that way.
Enjoy your pleasure in it.
Thankfully I don’t have the choice as I am severely allergic to it…as I am to meat also. So drinking, whatever the Bible says, would be a real sin for me. Serious abuse of this temple of the Holy Spirit
Circumstances do alter cases.
And always personal choice; not compulsory because some in the Bible drink.
I did not advocate prohibition; I said clearly that that would not work for many reasons. It has to come from within always. Nor did I say it was sin. Just in this present world not always maybe the best course to take.
 
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Talitha:
Eden. if you are happy with what you do fine and good. Bless you in it. And I mean that sincerely. But others are not and we too are blessed in that way.
I understand how it is difficult to avoid platitudes on a subject such as alcohol. But again you are missing the point of this thread.

There are many Protestants who come to this site to tell us that the Church is full of “Traditions of men”. This, of course, is untrue as nothing the Church teaches is contradictory to Scriptures and all Sacred Tradition is derived from Christ and His disciples.

The sole purpose of my thread on religions prohibiting the drinking of alcohol by all of its members is to illustrate that such a teaching is not from God but is a “tradition of men” which is contradicted by the Bible; where we find that God wants those who can drink in moderation to enjoy it.

Do you see now? Prohibiting the drinking of alcohol by all members of a church is an invention of man - something that so many “bible only” Christians come here to accuse *us *of!

You will find nothing that the Church teaches contradicted in the Bible. As we see in this case, you will find things taught by some “bible only” churches is contradicted in the bible.

I will refer the “bible onlies” who come here and accuse the Church as having “traditions of men” to this thread in the future.
 
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