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beafedor
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I never thought about it that way but the fact that Monica and Nine-two are answering the same as Catholics really means something!
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benidict
Guest
hi beafedor. they may not believe it, but they may be tieing themselves into various groups throughout history,that espoused it.
peace be with you.
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OmegaSupreme
Guest
Yup, that book used to make its rounds in the Baptist church I grew up in, along with Foxe’s Book of Martyrs. Those two books were about as close as we would get to studying church history between 100AD and 1800AD.
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James_Least
Guest
Several observations which may apply to this thread:
Where will we be in 2109?
Selah,
James Least
- History is written by the victorious. Anything written by the vanquished is usually burned.
- True followers of Jesus have been bloodied in every generation starting with the apostles. The Apostle Paul lost his head for the Gospel.
- That there has been a remnant of God’s people in every generation is a fulfillment of the promise of Jesus to his followers: “I will never leave you nor forsake you”. Also: “The gates of hell will not prevail against her…”(His Bride).
- A basically unbiased book: “History of the Evangelical Churches of the Valleys of Piedmont”, written by Samuel Morland, documents some interesting accounts of Christians??killing Christians. It is an interesting contradiction to the Catholic Encyclopedia and other highly biased sources of information. Warning: some of the illustrations will make one want to vomit.
Where will we be in 2109?
Selah,
James Least
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benidict
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hi james, but what do you do with malichi 1:11? this prophecy can only be applied to the Catholic Church. no other. this is the only Church that fills the globe, that can fullfill the prophecy. for from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the gentiles, saith the Lord of host. a clean oblation is the precious body and blood of Christ in the eucharistic sacrifice. and there has been from the time of the apostles down to the present day, a visible bride of Christ on the earth. no protestant denomination can claim this. can they? peace be with you.
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Nine_Two
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So what you’re saying is that you think baptists actually due share a heritage with people who believe in two Gods, reincarnation, and the sinfulness of giving birth? If they want to claim that I guess that’s their perogitive.
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RoryMcKenzie56
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Yes, Benedict.hi james, but what do you do with malichi 1:11? this prophecy can only be applied to the Catholic Church. no other. this is the only Church that fills the globe, that can fullfill the prophecy. for from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the gentiles, saith the Lord of host. a clean oblation is the precious body and blood of Christ in the eucharistic sacrifice. and there has been from the time of the apostles down to the present day, a visible bride of Christ on the earth. no protestant denomination can claim this. can they? peace be with you.
I usually know the Baptist ways to wiggle out of good Catholic exegesis of Scripture. John 6 is no problem for instance. But this one is tough. Daniel also talks about the mountain that fills the earth. I became uncomfortable with the remnant theory. There are promises in both Testaments that lead one to see that the Gospel is not going to exist among merely a handful. Also noteworthy is the notion of scrifice, evident in the Mass, evident in every ordained priest, evident in the way of salvation explained for the layfolk in the Catholic Church.
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RoryMcKenzie56
Guest
It is true that history is written by the victorious. But they better tell the truth. Good subsequent history takes this into consideration. Was Hitler a hero because history is written by the victorious? Of course not. The good guys win sometimes, and when they do, there is no reason to misrepresent what the bad guys believed. Even if the Catholics were the bad guys, why would they make up stories about what these “crypto-baptists” believed? Her properly catechised children are no more going to become Baptists than Manichees.
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RoryMcKenzie56
Guest
Hi again. I am well acquainted with BJU. I went to a school (late 70’s/early 80"s) which kind of considered them to be whimpy even though we had to recognize them as believing like us. Bob Jones Sr. was actually a Methodist and although the school became more predominantly Baptist in the 60’s, it still gave an official pan-Protestant overview to prospective students in the 70’s. If they are producing this kind of alumni in the 21st Century, it seems time to call themselves Bob Jones Baptist University.
I would be happy to help further if I can. But really, people don’t act on new information for a loooooooooong time. You would think I was ready to become a Catholic after taking that Church History class? Nahhhh. I would start a Baptist Church, merge it with another one, and go to all kinds of different Protestant churches before uniting myself with the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church in 1995, around 15 years after I had the information that helped lead me there in a Baptist church history class. I would counsel patience and low expectations for immediate results. Plant the seeds and pray. Let the Holy Ghost do the rest.
Our Lady of Good Counsel, Pray for us.
God bless,
Rory
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James_Least
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Want to trade a Malachi 1:11 for a Revelation 17:3-6?hi james, but what do you do with malichi 1:11? this prophecy can only be applied to the Catholic Church. no other. this is the only Church that fills the globe, that can fullfill the prophecy. for from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the gentiles, saith the Lord of host. a clean oblation is the precious body and blood of Christ in the eucharistic sacrifice. and there has been from the time of the apostles down to the present day, a visible bride of Christ on the earth. no protestant denomination can claim this. can they? peace be with you.
Most of the Gentile world are not New Testament Christians.
The scripture says that this world will be like the days of Noah when Jesus returns. How many were spared? A similar analogy could be made for Sodom and Gomorrah. Nowhere does the scripture say the world will be won for Christ. He does tell us to preach the gospel to every creature.
As Jesus died, He said,“It is finished”. He died once for all–the innocent blood sacrifice has been made. Why do some crucify Him daily–all over the world?
I think we have different catechisms, Bro.
Peace,
James Least
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James_Least
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- Baptist is a catch all word for a lot of different doctrine. There is no such entity as: The Baptist Church. There were Baptistic doctrines practiced long before Luther was born.
- While the names have been different, the faith and practice can be traced to the shores of Galilee, the Book of Acts and Jude 3,4. They never bowed to Rome, never forced their beliefs on anyone, and never reformed anything. They believed Jesus and obeyed Him. They kept The Faith, once, for all, delivered unto the saints. They were massacred by the millions. See S. Morland, “History of the Evangelical Churches…”. Luther and his cohorts gave them little relief as well.
- Jesus said He would never leave them nor forsake them. It is reasonable to believe that He has kept His promise. He is faithful–even when we are not. He was with them through the fire and the flood.
Where will we be in 2109?
Selah,
James Least
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Nine_Two
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You’re right it is a catchall. Would you like to go into what these Baptist doctrines were, and who practiced them?
Trace it for me. Trace it through groups which are truly Baptist, and don’t just happen to have one or two similarities and are really quite different.
He said that to his Apostles, who established his Church, and he has been with us and has never fosaken us, even when things appeared grim.
I pray I’ll be in the hands of God and assume that by that time every protestant will have their own church.
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James_Least
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Trace it? I just did that–in the scripture–that is where we split–only the scripture is infallible, and is the only rule of faith and practice. Everything else is teaching for doctrine the commandments of unregenerated men. I am not a protestant. This was a plain teaching long(1500 yrs.) before Luther was born.
Our paradigms are diametrically opposed. We seem to even have different definitions for the same words.
Peace,
“I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto to Him against that day.”
James Least
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imkingdad
Guest
Sir Your run to sola scriptura does not withstand your own Biblical injunctions.
Your poor grasp of History is even worse than your lack of understanding of what Catholics actually Believe. I reference your mention of a daily sacrifice. Why not take some time, while your here, to actually look-up on a Real Catholic site those Beliefs of Catholics that you think you think you know so well?
Read what real Catholics believe rather than that trite Pablum you’ve been spoon-fed from Pastor Billy-Bob of the great Bayou Baptist Brethren Breathed by Christ Community Church. Here you are referring us to your sources so we can “git us an edumakashun” about what alls wrong with us. So why not take a stab and enlighten your closed mind with what we really believe.
The Major Problem you have with “Trail & Blood” & your Book is that while you may
be able to find a specific Baptistic belief within 1 or more of these oft-time heretical
groups you can not find a continuous & consistent pattern of Baptistic beliefs across these groups which were even more separated by Distance & Time than you & you supporters can document.
Not to mention the various Protestant Writers, Historians & groups that have written to disavow & refute your referenced materials as Well. Knox would be one & the Author of “Trail of Blood” himself actually wrote & refuted this work in his later life. So Literally you have no legs to stand on. Not even the Bible with clearly refutes sole scriptura. As do Paul & Peter & James… Guess you’re just flat out of luck & out of options.
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benidict
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dont know if you are familiar with the masonic lodges " raising "ceremony. its eerily like the mode of believers baptism that the baptist follow. just the masons dont use water and there is some other symbology there. also the masons to some degree follow the teachings of the gnostics which were one of the first heresies the Church had to contend with. are you trying to say that the baptist have their roots in gnosticism? peace.
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OmegaSupreme
Guest
Where is this supposed lineage of “Baptist-believing Christians” that you are referring to? Can you tell me what evidence there is of those who believed in such beliefs as Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide between the years of 100AD and 1500AD? Where is your proof to support your outlandish claims?
The problem here is, you can’t provide any such proof. You can’t try to use the same text that’s been used by the Catholic church for almost 2000 years to justify your beliefs. To do so is mere intellectual dishonesty.
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benidict
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yes. thank God for St. Jerome!
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Nine_Two
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You did not trace it. You referenced me to a book. While I found the second volume of that book, I’m not going to read it. Tell me exactly what it traces through.
Unless you want me to make an argument and back it up by saying “It’s in book x”
By the way, what you call “Scripture” didn’t exist 1500 years before Luther. Or do you think it magically came out of nowhere?
And by the way, your theology is very much built on the Protestant movement, I’m going to go with “If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck…”
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benidict
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hello nine two. he may be thinking of the martyrs mirror. what he fails to realize is the early believers listed in that book, were Catholics being martyred by the romans. not baptist. God bless you and yours.
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James_Least
Guest
Sir Your run to sola scriptura does not withstand your own Biblical injunctions.
Your poor grasp of History is even worse than your lack of understanding of what Catholics actually Believe. I reference your mention of a daily sacrifice. Why not take some time, while your here, to actually look-up on a Real Catholic site those Beliefs of Catholics that you think you think you know so well?
Read what real Catholics believe rather than that trite Pablum you’ve been spoon-fed from Pastor Billy-Bob of the great Bayou Baptist Brethren Breathed by Christ Community Church. Here you are referring us to your sources so we can “git us an edumakashun” about what alls wrong with us. So why not take a stab and enlighten your closed mind with what we really believe.
The Major Problem you have with “Trail & Blood” & your Book is that while you may
be able to find a specific Baptistic belief within 1 or more of these oft-time heretical
groups you can not find a continuous & consistent pattern of Baptistic beliefs across these groups which were even more separated by Distance & Time than you & you supporters can document.
Not to mention the various Protestant Writers, Historians & groups that have written to disavow & refute your referenced materials as Well. Knox would be one & the Author of “Trail of Blood” himself actually wrote & refuted this work in his later life. So Literally you have no legs to stand on. Not even the Bible with clearly refutes sole scriptura. As do Paul & Peter & James… Guess you’re just flat out of luck & out of options.
The weaker the argument, the stronger the words. Sounds as if you may be having difficulty convincing yourself of what the facts might be.
I am not defending T of B or any other writings of men/women. God wrote only one Bible. Let us throw out all the writings of men and see what God really said. We will all be giving an account to the Lord Jesus Christ, not the Holy See. The Accounting Book will be the Bible not the Catechism.
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God. Are we ready?
Discerning just who the real heretics are may have to wait until the fulfillment of I Cor. Ch. 3, vss. 11-15 in particular.
Even so, come Lord Jesus.
Have a blessed day,
May I pray for our enlightenment?
James Least
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