Transgender and communion?

[PetraG]

So, why shouldn’t a person’s self perception of their gender be an important part of how someone’s gender is determined in the same way that someone’s perceived feelings of fear and nervousness and worry are used to determine that they have GAD?

Self-perception of gender isn’t unimportant. It is very important. It just doesn’t change what your gender is.
What other measurable aspect of yourself changes at all because you have a different self-perception?

Are you not married because you don’t feel married? Not a member of some ethnic group because you feel more comfortable in a different one? Not human because you feel more comfortable seeing yourself as a member of a different species? When did self-perception ever change anything about the objective facts about your life?

 

[ConstantLearner]

Likewise, the marital act belongs to marriage. A marriage that is not consummated by the marital act is not a valid marriage. Sex does indeed belong to the definition of marriage in an undeniable way, then. Those who deny that are re-defining some other relationships as marriages when they are not. And yes, there are those even on this forum who try to deny that the marital act is even relevant to the ultimate definition of what marriage is. The confusion has become that profound.

You still didn’t answer my question: I didn’t ask if sex belonged to marriage. We all know Church teaching on that. Presumably people are “in love” prior to marriage. How do they KNOW they are “in love?” How do they measure it so they know it’s the kind of love that can sustain a marriage? I’m asking for tools of measurement.

How do you measure pain? Some cancer patients are given morphine, a highly addictive narcotic. But pain cannot be objectively measured. There is no lab report, no X-rat, no scan to measure pain. One must rely on the patient’s subjective report. Do you support withholding morphine from cancer patients in extreme pain because pain cannot be measured?

Some of us are not confused at all. Please do not presume to speak for those of us with clarity. Thank you.

 

[PetraG]

You still didn’t answer my question: I didn’t ask if sex belonged to marriage. We all know Church teaching on that. Presumably people are “in love” prior rp marriage. How do they KNOW they are “in love?” How do they measure it so they know it’s the kind of love that can sustain a marriage? I’m asking for tools of measurement.

Did you know that you can have a valid marriage without being “in love”?

Now comes the joke. The Enemy described a married couple as “one flesh”. He did not say “a happily married couple” or “a couple who married because they were in love”, but you can make the humans ignore that. You can also make them forget that the man they call Paul did not confine it to married couples. Mere copulation, for him, makes “one flesh”. You can thus get the humans to accept as rhetorical eulogies of “being in love” what were in fact plain descriptions of the real significance of sexual intercourse. The truth is that wherever a man lies with a woman, there, whether they like it or not, a transcendental relation is set up between them which must be eternally enjoyed or eternally endured. From the true statement that this transcendental relation was intended to produce, and, if obediently entered into, too often will produce, affection and the family, humans can be made to infer the false belief that the blend of affection, fear, and desire which they call “being in love” is the only thing that makes marriage either happy or holy. The error is easy to produce because “being in love” does very often, in Western Europe, precede marriages which are made in obedience to the Enemy’s designs, that is, with the intention of fidelity, fertility and good will; just as religious emotion very often, but not always, attends conversion. In other words, the humans are to be encouraged to regard as the basis for marriage a highly-coloured and distorted version of something the Enemy really promises as its result. Two advantages follow. In the first place, humans who have not the gift of continence can be deterred from seeking marriage as a solution because they do not find themselves “in love”, and, thanks to us, the idea of marrying with any other motive seems to them low and cynical. Yes, they think that. They regard the intention of loyalty to a partnership for mutual help, for the preservation of chastity, and for the transmission of life, as something lower than a storm of emotion. (Don’t neglect to make your man think the marriage-service very offensive.) In the second place any sexual infatuation whatever, so long as it intends marriage, will be regarded as “love”, and “love” will be held to excuse a man from all the guilt, and to protect him from all the consequences, if marrying a heathen, a fool, or a wanton. But more of this in my next,

Your affectionate uncle,
SCREWTAPE
C.S. Lewis “The Screwtape Letters”

The tools for measurement are the capacity and mutual intention to enter into a conjugal union and to be faithful to it for life. If the couple wants that to include a certain feeling, that is great, but it is not necessary for a valid marriage.

 

[Thorolfr]

Self-perception of gender isn’t unimportant. It is very important. It just doesn’t change what your gender is…

Like almost everything, gender has a definition and it can be defined in such a way that someone’s self perception of whether they are masculine or feminine can be an important part of determining their gender. As Wikipedia notes in its article on gender:

Gender is the range of characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between, masculinity and femininity. Depending on the context, these characteristics may include biological sex (i.e., the state of being male, female, or an intersex variation), sex-based social structures (i.e., gender roles), or gender identity.

 

[ConstantLearner]

You are drifting seriously away from the question at hand:

How do you measure pain? Some cancer patients are given morphine, a highly addictive narcotic. But pain cannot be objectively measured. There is no lab report, no X-ray, no scan to measure pain. One must rely on the patient’s subjective report. Do you support withholding morphine from cancer patients in extreme pain because pain cannot be measured?

 

[PetraG]

Like almost everything, gender has a definition and it can be defined in such a way
…as Wikipedia notes in its article on gender:

We have the Church telling us that a man cannot become a woman and the conversation is dragging in Wikipedia as an authority on the matter?

Are you kidding?

EITHER there are times when we can define who is a male and who is a female without polling the person on their self-concept or submitting the verdict to their self-concept OR gender is being defined as a matter of self-concept as opposed to a physical state.

No one here is willing to tell me that a person can have a persistent self-concept of their gender that is confused. That tells me that gender is being defined solely based on self-concept. It has then lost its significance as anything but a quality that speaks to a person’s self-concept. It has been stripped of independent meaning.

So–which of you can come up with any definition of gender by which someone could say, “this person considers himself and has always considered himself female, but he is incorrect. He is certain and always has been certain, but he is confused.”

If you cannot say that, then it is impossible for a person to be confused about their own gender on a persistent basis and gender is solely a statement of persistent self-concept.

(Let’s eliminate multiple personalities, even though that, if it is persistent state, raises interesting questions…)

 

[PetraG]

I think you overlooked this:

How do you measure pain? Some cancer patients are given morphine, a highly addictive narcotic. But pain cannot be objectively measured. There is no lab report, no X-ray, no scan to measure pain. One must rely on the patient’s subjective report. Do you support withholding morphine from cancer patients in extreme pain because pain cannot be measured?

Thank you in advance for your answer.

Oh, so now any patient who walks into a doctor’s office and says they need painkillers should get them when their self-report is the only basis for a diagnosis of severe pain?

I don’t think you want to go there, even though we are obviously talking about people who are really really convinced they have to have those painkillers.

 

[ConstantLearner]

I think you overlooked this:

How do you measure pain? Some cancer patients are given morphine, a highly addictive narcotic. But pain cannot be objectively measured. There is no lab report, no X-ray, no scan to measure pain. One must rely on the patient’s subjective report. Do you support withholding morphine from cancer patients in extreme pain because pain cannot be measured? Do you think pain is solely a statement of persistent self-concept? There is NO objective measurement.

Thanks in advance for your answer.

 

[Thorolfr]

Self-perception of gender isn’t unimportant. It is very important. It just doesn’t change what your gender is.

A lot of people here on CAF also would make the point that just because two gay men are married, that doesn’t change what marriage is. But that statement is based on Catholic teaching about the nature of marriage which would preclude two gay men. As we all know, however, a majority of people in the US have decided that they believe that marriage should be defined differently so that it can include two gay men. There is no way of resolving this disagreement about what marriage is since both sides have different definitions of marriage.

Well, the same thing applies on the issue of gender, too. If the Catholic Church sticks with a definition of gender which says that it is determined by a person’s genitals and whether their chromosomes are XX or XY, then there can be no agreement with others who think that there are other things that also determine gender.

 

[Thorolfr]

Oh, so now any patient who walks into a doctor’s office and says they need painkillers should get them when their self-report is the only basis for a diagnosis of severe pain?

I don’t think you want to go there, even though we are obviously talking about people who are really really convinced they have to have those painkillers.

So, how do you think that doctor’s decide whether a patient needs painkillers or if they’re in pain? Is there a blood test that they do to determine if a patients is really in pain? Of course not. The doctor must decide if he believes the patient’s claim that they are in pain and if so, he has to decide whether to give them painkillers. In most cases, whether the patient is really in pain can only be determined by self-report.

 

[PetraG]

A lot of people here on CAF also would make the point that just because two gay men are married, that doesn’t change what marriage is. But that statement is based on Catholic teaching about the nature of marriage which would preclude two gay men. As we all know, however, a majority of people in the US have decided that they believe that marriage should be defined differently so that it can include two gay men. There is no way of resolving this disagreement about what marriage is since both sides have different definitions of marriage.

Well, the same thing applies on the issue of gender, too. If the Catholic Church sticks with a definition of gender which says that it is determined by a person’s genitals and whether their chromosomes are XX or XY, then there can be no agreement with others who think that there are other things that also determine gender.

Yes, and the bishops have said that re-defining marriage in this way is not merely a religious matter but a matter with great societal impact.

Yes, I really , really , really want to go there. Please answer how you objectively diagnose pain when a patient has been diagnosed, by a credible doctor, with a disease usually causing severe pain?

(I referenced a cancer patient, not someone walking into a doctor’s office with no diagnosis. I didn’t reference “anyone.” I guess you didn’t read my post. )

OK. For instance… a doctor I know was going with some residents to see a patient in the hospital, concerned that the patient might have a very painful condition known as “compartment syndrome.” Upon arrival in the room, it was discovered that the patient was engaged in behavior with his lover that was inconsistent with the condition. (This does not mean that a cancer patient could not be a drug-seeker, but of course a cancer diagnosis makes a report of pain consistent with the observable condition of the person’s body. That is independently verified; the patient’s opinion that she is a cancer patient is not sufficient to make a cancer diagnosis.)

But this is getting off of the topic. It is not a sin to be confused about your gender. A person confused about his or her gender could receive Holy Communion.

Finally: The Church teaches that self-concept is not the defining determinant of gender. You say it is. It is time to quit beating that horse to death. If you want to believe that a person’s persistent self-concept is the single authoritative indicator of that person’s gender, I’m not going to argue with you about it any more.

 

[ConstantLearner]

I didn’t ask what a doctor you know did. I didn’t ask about Church teaching. I’ve had six years of formal theological training in a Catholic college, I know what the Church teaches. Oh, I NEVER said self-concept was the ONLY means of determining gender, I said it was one of several.

I asked how YOU measure pain. I asked if YOU support withholding painkillers from cancer patients because THERE IS NO WAY TO OBJECTIVLY MEASURE PAIN? Do you?

Thanks in advance…again.

 

[PetraG]

I didn’t ask what a doctor you know did. I didn’t ask about Church teaching. I’ve had six years of formal theological training in a Catholic college, I know what the Church teaches.

I asked how YOU measure pain. I asked if YOU support withholding painkillers from cancer patients because THERE IS NO WAY TO SUBJECTIVLY MEASURE PAIN? Do you?

Thanks in advance…again.

I think you mean “objective,” not subjective, since I am the one arguing that the concept of gender does have an objective meaning and you are the one arguing that if it does, the meaning is that the person has a persistent self-concept of belonging to a particular gender then that is their gender–whatever that means, because there is no way to prove them wrong because their gender is whatever they very profoundly feel it is. If someone says they are in pain, you say, no one can say they aren’t. If someone says they are a man or says they are a woman, there is no independent way to show that they are incorrect. OH…KAY.

You do not need to shout. I am sure you do know what the Church teaches and I am sure you are not buying it. You think gender is subjective. I am not going to change your mind. I get it.

 

[ConstantLearner]

I asked how YOU measure pain. I asked if YOU support withholding painkillers from cancer patients because THERE IS NO WAY TO OBJECTIVLY MEASURE PAIN? Do you?

I will ask again:

I asked how YOU measure pain. I asked if YOU support withholding painkillers from cancer patients because THERE IS NO WAY TO OBJECTIVELY MEASURE PAIN? Do you? How do you, yourself, support the measure of pain?

And yes, I meant objectively. Thanks for pointing it out. I’m not yelling. You seem to overlook the question. I’m trying to make it visible.

 

[PetraG]

I will ask again:

I asked how YOU measure pain. I asked if YOU support withholding painkillers from cancer patients because THERE IS NO WAY TO OBJECTIVLY MEASURE PAIN? Do you?

And yes, I meant objectively.

It is irrelevant to this conversation, because there are objective indicators of gender.

If any patient already diagnosed with a condition that is typically very painful goes to a doctor and claims to be in great pain but shows no other signs of actually being in pain–doesn’t wince when touched, doesn’t restrict their movements or activities of daily life in any way, etc–then that doctor has to make a prudential judgment. The presence of a disease state that typically causes pain is usually considered an objective reason to believe the patient. If a patient neither has any physical manifestations of a disease state that would cause pain, however, the doctor will be more circumspect.

 

[ConstantLearner]

It is irrelevant to this conversation, because there are objective indicators of gender.

Yes, there are, but it is not irrelevant because there are many subjective indicators as well, just as there are many subjective components of love that have nothing at all to do with sex and that cannot be measured:

http://transhealth.ucsf.edu/trans?page=guidelines-masculinizing-therapy

http://transhealth.ucsf.edu/trans?page=guidelines-initiating-hormone-therapy

So, therefore, women with short hair and who dress in men’s jeans and men’s shirts should be viewed as male since they are objectively presenting as male?

I am glad Pope Francis is charitable and compassionate about this and keeps an open mind.

 

[PetraG]

I am glad Pope Francis is charitable and compassionate about this and keeps an open mind.

The recently-advanced hypothesis of reopening the way for the dignity of the person by radically neutralizing sexual difference and, therefore, the understanding between man and woman, is not right. Instead of counteracting the negative interpretations of sexual difference, which mortify its irreducible value for human dignity, it seeks in effect to cancel out such difference, proposing techniques and practices that make it irrelevant for the development of the person and for human relationships. But the utopia of the “neutral” removes both the human dignity of the sexually different constitution, and the personal quality of the generative transmission of life. The biological and psychical manipulation of sexual difference, which biomedical technology allows us to perceive as completely available to free choice – which it is not! – thus risks dismantling the source of energy that nurtures the alliance between man and woman and which renders it creative and fruitful.
(Pope Francis, Address to 23rd General Assembly of the members of the Pontifical Academy for Life, Oct. 2017)

Neither he nor I disbelieves that gender dysphoria reflects the real experience of the person. Neither of us accept the premise that self-concept determines gender, either, though.

Again–I realize you aren’t going to buy this, but please refrain from insulting my charity and compassion because I will not submit to a definition of gender that you but not the Church nor the Holy Father is trying to advance. That is really below the belt and does not advance the discussion whatsoever.

As I said, I can just leave you alone about it. You can have the last word. I would appreciate it if you don’t use that opportunity to get one last insult in.

 

[ConstantLearner]

Neither he nor I disbelieves that gender dysphoria reflects the real experience of the person. Neither of us accept the premise that self-concept determines gender, either, though.

Again, I never said self-concept reflects the ONLY determinant of gender. Please do not change what I said. Some people are born with both male and female genitals. I do not support leaving them in that sorrowful condition throughout life.

Pope Francis tells gay man: 'God made you like this' | Pope Francis | The Guardian

I DO, most definitely, support gay marriage and treatment for gender dysphoria. I do not believe in discrimination or leaving people in a suicidal state when treatment, by educated, competent physicians, is available.

I honestly don’t think God cares about who marries whom or what gender one is, but about how much we loved and cared for one another and sought to relieve others’ pain. Sadly, most people are terribly deficient in this quality, and I’m only speaking in generalities. I don’t know anyone here, and I’m definitely not referencing anyone here. I don’t even think God cares if we go to church.

Of course people with gender dysphoria can receive communion. All are welcome by Christ, who even embraced and loved Judas. People with gender dysphoria are not sinning. It is just the way God made them. Why? I don’t know. God does.

 

[PetraG]

Again, I never said self-concept reflects the ONLY determinant of gender. Please do not change what I said. Some people are born with both male and female genitals. I do not support leaving them in that sorrowful condition throughout life.

I never said there was no such thing as physical ambiguity, either. As I said, though, I think this needs to be done. This isn’t a thread about whether or not the Church is going to redefine marriage or gender.

 

[OraLabora]

*The recently-advanced hypothesis of reopening the way for the dignity of the person by radically neutralizing sexual difference etc.
(Pope Francis, Address to 23rd General Assembly of the members of the Pontifical Academy for Life, Oct. 2017)

Neither he nor I disbelieves that gender dysphoria reflects the real experience of the person. Neither of us accept the premise that self-concept determines gender, either, though.

The problem with that quote is that he is talking about “radically neutralizing sexual difference”. The transgendered, those with clinical gender dysphoria, are not crackpots trying to neutralize sexual difference. Au contraire, they very much have an appreciation for sexual difference. They would be aghast at being made into some sort of “genderless” eunuch.

“Self-concept” of gender is a new one on me. They did not just pull “I am a woman” or “I am a man” out of a hat. Again they have a deep-seated identity with the gender opposite to their birth gender. In most cases, it goes back to earliest childhood. They know innately that something is wrong. That strikes me as rather deeper than “self concept”. They are not seeking to be “neutral” as the Holy Father is mentioning. They are seeking to be men, or women. Until I’m proven wrong, I prefer to consider those with gender dysphoria as a form of intersex. It leads to a more charitable treatment of them, among other things. It’s not a theological problem, it’s a medical one.

If any patient already diagnosed with a condition that is typically very painful goes to a doctor and claims to be in great pain but shows no other signs of actually being in pain–doesn’t wince when touched, doesn’t restrict their movements or activities of daily life in any way, etc–then that doctor has to make a prudential judgment.

My wife is a doctor and the explosion of cases of chronic pain is a big issue for them. They more or less have no choice than to believe the patient nowadays as these are such vague conditions. The way they deal with it is by being very very cautious about prescribing narcotics, to avoid causing dependencies, by using small doses, non-renewable prescriptions, and frequent re-evaluations of the patient. There are also “black lists” circulated of known drug abusers.

Likewise, the marital act belongs to marriage. A marriage that is not consummated by the marital act is not a valid marriage.

Explain that to the Virgin Mary when you meet her in heaven. What you say is not true. An unconsummated marriage is grounds for annulment, yes because the marriage is invalid if the non-consummation is due to impotence or a unilateral decision. But the Church recognizes that the couple can freely of their own accord have a Josephite marriage.