Transgender and communion?

[PetraG]

But the Church recognizes that the couple can freely of their own accord have a Josephite marriage.

Not if they’re two men who by definition are incapable of consummating marriage with each other. Such a couple is incapable of marriage.

Gays who want to marry have nothing whatsoever to do with Josephite marriage. This discussion has become utterly pointless.

 

[ConfusedLucy]

In some ways wouldnt a surgically and hormonally treated transwomen or transmitted be more similar to a eunuch as they can no longer function sexually as the sex they were born and can only somewhat function as the sex they want to be with a lot of help?

To be honest I wonder if instead of calling the treatment sex reassigning we should just call it feminising or masculinising, for example testosterone treatment and mastectomy will give a woman a more masculine appearance but won’t make them the same as a real man.

 

[TheNoseKnows]

Of course its ok for the mentally ill to receive Communion!

 

[SeriousQuestion]

C. S. Lewis hit the nail on the head.

 

[SeriousQuestion]

How does Pope Francis saying that someone was made gay instantly relate to GID?
Personally, I don’t care about what the pope says. Kind of cherry-picking too.

 

[OraLabora]

Not if they’re two men who by definition are incapable of consummating marriage with each other. Such a couple is incapable of marriage

I wasn’t speaking of gays.

 

[ConstantLearner]

Personally, I don’t care about what the pope says. Kind of cherry-picking too.

You’re Catholic? And you don’t care what the Pope says? Why care what any doctrine of the Church is then?

 

[SeriousQuestion]

I don’t know why you are asking me things like that when you have some pretty questionable ideas yourself. But being made gay and having GID are two different things, so I don’t see how Pope Francis’s comment is even relatable. The Pope’s unofficial statements aren’t binding on the faithful, so I don’t have to obey them.

 

[ConstantLearner]

I don’t know why you are asking me things like that when you have some pretty questionable ideas yourself. But being made gay and having GID are two different things, so I don’t see how Pope Francis’s comment is even relatable.

Not at all questionable for my religion. You are trying to evade the question.

But you state you are Catholic. So you profess to be Catholic and yet do not believe the words of the Holy Father, Christ’s representative on earth? Why care about any doctrine of your church then? Catholics can’t pick and choose.

 

[Thorolfr]

“Self-concept” of gender is a new one on me. They did not just pull “I am a woman” or “I am a man” out of a hat. Again they have a deep-seated identity with the gender opposite to their birth gender. In most cases, it goes back to earliest childhood. They know innately that something is wrong. That strikes me as rather deeper than “self concept”. They are not seeking to be “neutral” as the Holy Father is mentioning. They are seeking to be men, or women. Until I’m proven wrong, I prefer to consider those with gender dysphoria as a form of intersex. It leads to a more charitable treatment of them, among other things. It’s not a theological problem, it’s a medical one.

A lot of gay men also feel from an early age that they are different from the other boys and the feelings of sexual attraction that they start to experience at puberty feel perfectly normal and natural to them, an intrinsic part of who they are. They are told, of course, by the Catholic Church, that having those feelings, as disordered as they are, is not a sin. But they should not act on those feelings because it is the acting on them that is wrong and sinful. Well, that’s basically what they’re telling trans folk, too, that there is nothing sinful about having feelings of gender dysphoria, but you may not act on those feelings by taking hormones or having any sort of surgery because that would be sinful.

 

[Thorolfr]

Yes, and the bishops have said that re-defining marriage in this way is not merely a religious matter but a matter with great societal impact.

And what is this great societal impact? So far, I haven’t seen how a small percentage of the population having same-sex marriages has had any effect on the marriages of straight people.

 

[Thorolfr]

EITHER there are times when we can define who is a male and who is a female without polling the person on their self-concept or submitting the verdict to their self-concept OR gender is being defined as a matter of self-concept as opposed to a physical state.

Just because we don’t know yet what the physical basis of someone’s sense of their own gender is, that doesn’t mean that no such physical basis exists. As we learn more about how the brain works, we will probably discover that many psychological conditions have a physical basis in how the brain works. I think that it’s inaccurate to speak of what goes on in our heads as if it is not a part of our physical body. A person’s sense of gender might be determined, for example, by the amount of testosterone or other hormones that they were exposed to in utero which caused their brain to develop in a certain way. If that is the case, then being transgender would be a physical state.

 

[ConstantLearner]

A lot of gay men also feel from an early age that they are different from the other boys and the feelings of sexual attraction that they start to experience at puberty feel perfectly normal and natural to them, an intrinsic part of who they are. They are told, of course, by the Catholic Church, that having those feelings, as disordered as they are, is not a sin. But they should not act on those feelings because it is the acting on them that is wrong and sinful. Well, that’s basically what they’re telling trans folk, too, that there is nothing sinful about having feelings of gender dysphoria, but you may not act on those feelings by taking hormones or having any sort of surgery because that would be sinful.

Hmmm. So the Catholic Church would rather people suffer terribly or suffer and kill themselves than receive treatment from a competent physician?

One of the drugs given to MTF patients was originally used for blood pressure. Many men with prostate cancer take female hormones and some develop breasts. Would the Church deny them treatment because the drugs they are taking cause feminization? Should someone with a cleft palate or a hole in the heart not seek treatment because he or she is “made in God’s image” so having any kind of surgery would be sinful? The Church’s logic regarding no treatment for gender dysphoria falls apart.

Physically, NO ONE is made in God’s image in a physical manner because God is pure spirit. People who seek treatment for gender dysphoria are NOT seeking to alter their spirit, the part of them that IS made in God’s image, only to correct something physical that went wrong in utero.

 

[SeriousQuestion]

You are also trying to evade the question.

You are also evading my question. I think mine is relevant in a way that yours isn’t, but that’s okay. Why do you keep calling him a representative when you aren’t even Catholic? It is misleading.

 

[SeriousQuestion]

Well, that’s basically what they’re telling trans folk, too, that there is nothing sinful about having feelings of gender dysphoria, but you may not act on those feelings by taking hormones or having any sort of surgery because that would be sinful.

Do you have any proof of this? The Church doesn’t have any teachings on this on the Catechism, so some of these conclusions could be speculations of theologians and aren’t official.

 

[ConstantLearner]

Why do you keep calling him a representative when you aren’t even Catholic? It is misleading.

Because the Catholic Church says he is:

A title of the pope implying his supreme and universal primacy, both of honour and of jurisdiction, over the Church of Christ. It is founded on the words of the Divine Shepherd to St. Peter: “Feed my lambs. . . . Feed my sheep” (John 21:16-17), by which He constituted the Prince of the Apostles guardian of His entire flock in His own place, thus making him His Vicar and fulfilling the promise made in Matthew 16:18-19.

In the course of the ages other vicarial designations have been used for the pope, as Vicar of St. Peter and even Vicar of the Apostolic See (Pope Gelasius, I, Ep. vi), but the title Vicar of Christ is more expressive of his supreme headship of the Church on earth, which he bears in virtue of the commission of Christ and with vicarial power derived from Him. Thus, Innocent III appeals for his power to remove bishops to the fact that he is Vicar of Christ (cap. “Inter corporalia”, 2, “De trans. ep.”). He also declares that Christ has given such power only to His Vicar Peter and his successors (cap. “Quanto”, 3, ibid.), and states that it is the Roman Pontiff who is “the successor of Peter and the Vicar of Jesus Christ” (cap. “Licet”, 4, ibid.). The title Vicar of God used for the pope by Nicholas III (c. “Fundamenta ejus”, 17, “De elect.”, in 6) is employed as an equivalent for Vicar of Christ.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15403b.htm

Oh, I was baptized in a Catholic church and spent six years at a Catholic college as a theology student. My mother, however, was Jewish, and I identify more with the Jewish faith. I find the Catholic faith uncharitable.

 

[SeriousQuestion]

The Church says other things that you don’t agree with so I don’t see how that works.

 

[OraLabora]

I find the Catholic faith uncharitable.

I think you’ll find that many individual Catholics can indeed be uncharitable. But I don’t think there’s anything particular in the faith that makes them that way; I’ve also met plenty of uncharitable Protestants, atheists, agnostics, etc. I am a Benedictine oblate and spend a lot of my time in a monastery and the monks are among the kindest and most charitable people I’ve ever met, and non-judgmental to boot. They are aware of my transgender daughter and have never been anything other than 100% supportive of her and I. When I told a few monks I am close to that I told my daughter that I love and support her unconditionally when she came out to me, they said I was behaving exactly as a Benedictine should, with love, acceptance and charity. So you just have to dig around a bit to find charitable Catholics

That said, I have a lot of affinity for the Jewish faith. I believe the Jewish people are our elders, to whom God first revealed Himself. A lot of Catholic liturgical practices, such as the Liturgy of the Hours (praying the psalms at specific times of the day) were inherited from Jewish tradition. I also am very grateful for Jewish intellectual tradition, and Jewish tradition in studying scripture on many levels.

 

[SeriousQuestion]

have to dig around a bit to find charitable Catholics

You have to dig to find a charitable anyone. But I hope that the measure of charity isn’t based only on how much you support popular victim groups. Love of neighbor is one of the most important tenets of the Catholic Church and it is everywhere in Her teachings.

 

[ConstantLearner]

I think you’ll find that many individual Catholics can indeed be uncharitable. But I don’t think there’s anything particular in the faith that makes them that way; I’ve also met plenty of uncharitable Protestants, atheists, agnostics, etc. I am a Benedictine oblate and spend a lot of my time in a monastery and the monks are among the kindest and most charitable people I’ve ever met, and non-judgmental to boot. They are aware of my transgender daughter and have never been anything other than 100% supportive of her and I. When I told a few monks I am close to that I told my daughter that I love and support her unconditionally when she came out to me, they said I was behaving exactly as a Benedictine should, with love, acceptance and charity. So you just have to dig around a bit to find charitable Catholics

Yes, you are correct. It was individual Catholics I was speaking of, not the Church, itself, or the Pope, who seems quite charitable. I have nothing against most Catholic doctrine except when it seems inflexible, uncharitable, and discriminatory. To deny a person with gender dysphoria communion, and I don’t know if that’s done, is heartbreaking to me. I have known Catholics who would tar and feather a person with gender dysphoria or a gay man, yet say a woman who is raped should be given an “abortion pill,” which is against Church teaching. I understand sympathy for a rape victim, but I do not understand the lack of sympathy for someone suffering from something as heartbreaking as gender dysphoria and denying them (sometimes lifesaving) treatment.

And I do agree that one finds uncharitable people in all faiths, in agnosticism, and in atheism. I think what bothers me most is the inflexibility of many (not all) Catholics. I am very glad to hear your daughter is being loved and supported. And I’m happy to read the Benedictines are supportive of her. Bless them, and bless you and your daughter. I wish her all the happiness and peace in the world as she embraces the loving human being she was born to be. I hope she is learning to love herself and express who she really is.