Transgender child and parents

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My compliment was about your personality in general. I stand by that comment.

I apologize for misgendering you and I forgive you for misgendering me.

It’s no where near the same thing for a cis woman to behave like a man. My challenge does not apply to you. And again, my apologies for misgendering you.

Since I am a woman, my behavior is not disingenuous. And, no, I don’t go out of my way. I don’t wear makeup or pink clothes or high heels. Why do you continue to make false assumptions, such as your comment about my Adam’s apple? I have no need to obscure my Adam’s apple because it can hardly be seen. You seem to have some stereotypical image of a trans woman in your mind and you are projecting your assumptions on to me. Please stop that kind of prejudice.

I have never gotten any surgery to look like a woman. Please stop making false assumptions about me. As I have already explained, gender variance is well established in history and across all cultures. Millions of transgender people are alive today. It is totally unfair to try and compare that to one person pretending to be a cat. There is no “bandwagon” for cat-people.

I have never rejected the idea that I could be wrong about my beliefs. That is yet another false assumption of yours.

I can’t remember the last time anyone called me a freak. I’m actually pretty normal. I doubt that “Cat Man” cares what anyone else thinks of him.
How is it that you object to other people “invalidating” you, but you feel free to assume that the Cat Man doesn’t care what anyone else thinks? As far as admitting you could be wrong, you’ve never remotely indicated that you could accept maybe you really are a man, after all.

As for the rest, I was not talking about you specifically, but about transgendered people I have actual experience with. The OP, for instance, wants to have surgery; this whole thread is not about you. Others do try to deceive and obscure, and they say so openly. Some want to get married and do not let on that they’ve transitioned even to prospective spouses. To have you say “if people feel deceived, then perhaps they should not have made assumptions” when you know that these rationalizations exist is disingenuous.

There are people, and always have been, who are convinced they have an identity other than the one their family and society tells them they were born with, and not just that they have the “wrong” gender. In rare cases, they may believe that one of their appendages is a mistake, and feel enormous relief when the limb is lost. (This is called Body Integrity Identity Disorder.) Were these people, too made incorrectly, and were “supposed” to have been born with one hand? thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2008/05/28/cutting-desire.html

The way you write, you seem to be making Gender Identity Disorder out to be this situation where someone has been objectively born into the “wrong” body, as if others with different identity disorders have issues that are “merely” mental, while yours is “real”. Not a body that one’s brain won’t accept for reasons having to do with issues in the brain itself, but truly in some cosmic sense the wrong body. Other people have “a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary”, but that’s not you. For you, yes, the body and the DNA do lie. Yet you say “I have never rejected the idea that I could be wrong about my beliefs.”

This is entirely pointless. You have a strong conviction, I’m not trying to talk you out of it. All I ask is that those of us who do not believe you are a woman do have evidence to the contrary, and we do not deserve to be dismissed for giving weight to what is generally considered a preponderance of evidence concerning your physical gender. If you’re right, at least admit that we have more than sufficient reason to come back with a different verdict.
 
First and foremost, you are a human being. So am I. Right now I’m sitting in my living room barefoot, wearing shorts and a t-shirt, no make-up and wih my hair pulled back in a pony-tail. What makes me a woman isn’t the clothing, the make-up or even the hair. I still know that I’m a woman when in jeans and a t-shirt with no make-up, so by the same logic who you are isn’t dependent on the clothes you wear.

Can you wear gender neutral clothing to wear instead of wearing what our culture recognizes to be women’s clothing? It would be far less upsetting to your mother and many of us who share her views, but who you are on the inside wouldn’t change.

You are so much more than the clothes that you wear! You have suffered a serious brain injury, and you carry a heavy cross. Believe me, it’s hard to carry a heavy crosses in high heals! You do not need women’s clothing to be who you are.
Edit: I meant to write:** Can you wear gender neutral clothing instead of wearing what our culture recognizes as women’s clothing?**

There is plenty of gender neutral clothing available to fit a variety of body shapes for both males and females. It would make life easier on your mother and many others if you did that. Thank you for considering our opinions.
 
How is it that you object to other people “invalidating” you, but you feel free to assume that the Cat Man doesn’t care what anyone else thinks? As far as admitting you could be wrong, you’ve never remotely indicated that you could accept maybe you really are a man, after all.

As for the rest, I was not talking about you specifically, but about transgendered people I have actual experience with. The OP, for instance, wants to have surgery; this whole thread is not about you. Others do try to deceive and obscure, and they say so openly. Some want to get married and do not let on that they’ve transitioned even to prospective spouses. To have you say “if people feel deceived, then perhaps they should not have made assumptions” when you know that these rationalizations exist is disingenuous.

There are people, and always have been, who are convinced they have an identity other than the one their family and society tells them they were born with, and not just that they have the “wrong” gender. In rare cases, they may believe that one of their appendages is a mistake, and feel enormous relief when the limb is lost. (This is called Body Integrity Identity Disorder.) Were these people, too made incorrectly, and were “supposed” to have been born with one hand? thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2008/05/28/cutting-desire.html

The way you write, you seem to be making Gender Identity Disorder out to be this situation where someone has been objectively born into the “wrong” body, as if others with different identity disorders have issues that are “merely” mental, while yours is “real”. Not a body that one’s brain won’t accept for reasons having to do with issues in the brain itself, but truly in some cosmic sense the wrong body. Other people have “a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary”, but that’s not you. For you, yes, the body and the DNA do lie. Yet you say “I have never rejected the idea that I could be wrong about my beliefs.”

This is entirely pointless. You have a strong conviction, I’m not trying to talk you out of it. All I ask is that those of us who do not believe you are a woman do have evidence to the contrary, and we do not deserve to be dismissed for giving weight to what is generally considered a preponderance of evidence concerning your physical gender. If you’re right, at least admit that we have more than sufficient reason to come back with a different verdict.
EasterJoy, this discussion is not pointless from my perspective. I appreciate your critical thinking about the topic. I am grateful for your attempts to be respectful, despite the frustration and incredulity you clearly feel towards me and other trans women.

I don’t mean to hijack this thread and I will hope heilotes returns to participate, or that she is getting something out of our discourse. I found her story to be eloquent and inspiring and I would very much like to know more about her situation. In the meantime, I see no reason why we cannot continue the evolution of this discussion, since it is relevant to heilotes’ situation.

Exactly what evidence do you have that makes you believe I am a man and not a woman? Do you have anything other than my claims? If you would take my words as evidence that I should be identified as a man, then why not take me at my word and identify me as I believe is appropriate? Is it because you feel as if you are taking part in some kind of deception?

I’ve shown several examples of gender variance. Men are sometimes born with a vagina. People who appear at birth to be a girl sometimes grow a penis during puberty. There are many variations of intersexuality which frequently overlaps with transgendering. These are matters of fact. Which of these people are being deceptive and which aren’t? The fact that I was born with testosterone coursing through my blood which produced slightly masculine features on my body doesn’t change that I naturally identify as a woman.

If I am compelled by behavioral evidence to identify as a woman with a slightly masculinized body, then how would it be deception for me to behave within the gender role which the evidence tells me I should behave? Members of society frequently and spontaneously read me as a female without any effort on my part. Why would I try to remove myself from what I feel is the correct social gender role, and which the evidence supports?

I believe that my attempts to pretend to be a man were deceptive. Expressing my gender identity as female is natural to me. How is it my fault if people do not understand my condition and make false assumptions about me? If you read my post history, you would find countless false assumptions about me. Why would you blame other people’s mistakes on me?

I am well aware my beliefs aren’t absolute proof. This logic is merely the best fit solution I have to explain a great deal of confusion in my life. While I do feel a high degree of probability that I am correct, I wouldn’t ask others for alternative explanations if I were as closed minded as you are portraying me as. Your discussion of BIID is definitely something I need to think about.

As far as Dennis “Stalking Cat” Avner goes, I have no idea what his mental condition is. I don’t know if he would feel invalidated by things I’ve expressed here. What I do know is that there is no history or pattern of people behaving in such a way. In contrast, there is a soundly established pattern for transsexualism, and that pattern includes extremely high rates of suicidality. My belief, based on Marsha Linehan’s approach to BPD, is that extreme invalidation contributes to suicidality.

I never said that means you shouldn’t debate a trans woman or be incredulous about her. What I’m saying is that it would be wise to be cautious and try to avoid invalidation in any debate about gender with a trans person. I believe that your posts to heilotes were a wise and appropriate way to respond to her situation. I thank you for sharing your advice with her, as it was meaningful to me as well.
 
I really wish there was some way to report an entire thread. I am so tired of these kinds of pointless discussions on CAF. Why do we suddenly have to deal with at least 3 separate threads on “transgender” issues?

I guess it’s a new slant on all the “Homosexuality is fine” threads. Well, homosexuality isn’t fine, and neither is mutilating the body God gave you, no matter what society tells you.
 
I really wish there was some way to report an entire thread. I am so tired of these kinds of pointless discussions on CAF. Why do we suddenly have to deal with at least 3 separate threads on “transgender” issues?

I guess it’s a new slant on all the “Homosexuality is fine” threads. Well, homosexuality isn’t fine, and neither is mutilating the body God gave you, no matter what society tells you.
If you’re tired of them, why post here? Who told you that you “have to deal” with these threads?
 
Who said you “have to deal” with this issue? Why not go read a different thread?
 
I really feel that you need to find another Catholic therapist to help you sort through these issues. A priest at your mother’s church could probably recommend some good resources. (And by asking her to find some resources you will probably greatly help your relationship with your mother. She will see that you are open to discussion.) I do not think living one way in public and one way in private is healthy. I have a neuroscience background, and I can tell you that sometimes hormones are thrown off balance and the brain may not develop properly. You may have had a hormonal inbalance that caused too much estrogen to circulate and not enough testosterone throughout your life. All of your troubles may come down to a testosterone issue that has gone unresolved for many years.

I would think that a doctor may suggest hormone therapy, but instead of hormone therapy to make your body match your thinking, it could be hormone therapy to make your mind match the body. I assume you have a normal XY chromosome (it would be worth looking into to see if a genetic abnormality has caused this problem). You were born a male, you are a male, and of all the things your body has, your mind is the most “plastic”. It is infinitely safer to work on your depression and your thoughts than it is to change your entire body to fit something it is genetically not.

I urge you to look into the therapies available to help you to feel more male, rather than trying to be female. Identity problems are incredibly complex, this could go all the way back to a birth defect of some sort. When other birth defects occur we do not try to enhance them, rather, we try to fix them to make things work properly again. I think in the long run you will be happier and healthier by making the (relatively) small and non-surgical change of increasing your masculinity- rather than the drastic change of seeking femininity. I am not discounting the great work it will take to adjust your thinking, I am merely noting that therapy is non-surgical and reversible. Surgery rarely is. There would be nothing worse than to drastically change your body, only to realize that you haven’t really fixed your problems.

Your identity issues may only be a manifestation of something much deeper such as the depression you have. It is a chicken or the egg issue. Are you depressed because you feel like a woman, or are you depressed and this causes the altered identity. Perhaps you are afraid of being the man you are really meant to be and this feels like a desire to avoid masculinity?

I wish you all the best, and I hope you pray a lot about this. In the words of my grandmother, “God doesn’t make junk”. You are a valuable life in this world. He didn’t create a man when he meant to create a woman. He created a man and somewhere along the way a physical or emotional injury took you off your course.
 
EasterJoy, this discussion is not pointless from my perspective. I appreciate your critical thinking about the topic. I am grateful for your attempts to be respectful, despite the frustration and incredulity you clearly feel towards me and other trans women.

I don’t mean to hijack this thread and I will hope heilotes returns to participate, or that she is getting something out of our discourse. I found her story to be eloquent and inspiring and I would very much like to know more about her situation. In the meantime, I see no reason why we cannot continue the evolution of this discussion, since it is relevant to heilotes’ situation.

Exactly what evidence do you have that makes you believe I am a man and not a woman? Do you have anything other than my claims? If you would take my words as evidence that I should be identified as a man, then why not take me at my word and identify me as I believe is appropriate? Is it because you feel as if you are taking part in some kind of deception?

I’ve shown several examples of gender variance. Men are sometimes born with a vagina. People who appear at birth to be a girl sometimes grow a penis during puberty. There are many variations of intersexuality which frequently overlaps with transgendering. These are matters of fact. Which of these people are being deceptive and which aren’t? The fact that I was born with testosterone coursing through my blood which produced slightly masculine features on my body doesn’t change that I naturally identify as a woman.

If I am compelled by behavioral evidence to identify as a woman with a slightly masculinized body, then how would it be deception for me to behave within the gender role which the evidence tells me I should behave? Members of society frequently and spontaneously read me as a female without any effort on my part. Why would I try to remove myself from what I feel is the correct social gender role, and which the evidence supports?

I believe that my attempts to pretend to be a man were deceptive. Expressing my gender identity as female is natural to me. How is it my fault if people do not understand my condition and make false assumptions about me? If you read my post history, you would find countless false assumptions about me. Why would you blame other people’s mistakes on me?

I am well aware my beliefs aren’t absolute proof. This logic is merely the best fit solution I have to explain a great deal of confusion in my life. While I do feel a high degree of probability that I am correct, I wouldn’t ask others for alternative explanations if I were as closed minded as you are portraying me as. Your discussion of BIID is definitely something I need to think about.

As far as Dennis “Stalking Cat” Avner goes, I have no idea what his mental condition is. I don’t know if he would feel invalidated by things I’ve expressed here. What I do know is that there is no history or pattern of people behaving in such a way. In contrast, there is a soundly established pattern for transsexualism, and that pattern includes extremely high rates of suicidality. My belief, based on Marsha Linehan’s approach to BPD, is that extreme invalidation contributes to suicidality.

I never said that means you shouldn’t debate a trans woman or be incredulous about her. What I’m saying is that it would be wise to be cautious and try to avoid invalidation in any debate about gender with a trans person. I believe that your posts to heilotes were a wise and appropriate way to respond to her situation. I thank you for sharing your advice with her, as it was meaningful to me as well.
Thank you, you’re very kind. Let’s start with Dennis the Cat. He’s unusual. Maybe he’s unique. As you know, however, having a rare condition doesn’t make it less real. He may be somebody who was organically primed to fixate on something, just not something so specific as what is on your mind.

I am aware that suicide is a serious problem among people with gender identity disorder; I’m also aware that it is very difficult to get statistics for suicide rates. A person who had this disorder and hid it all their lives or who dealt with it themselves is never counted. The only transsexuals who are counted are the ones who decide that they need to express this difficulty to others. Likewise, because of the rejection of ambiguity found by the “buttoned-down” section of society, those who do transition may find themselves in a very different world than those who never do, a world in which behaviors that contribute to suicide and chaos are more prevalent, a world which is not as safe as a life “in hiding” in a lot of ways. The broad trend that this condition can raise suicidal thoughts is hard to argue with, but sorting out the variables has to be next to impossible. It is a very thorny problem.

As for deception, that has an objective and a subjective meaning and experience. Some people become great successes and feel themselves frauds, even though they are no such things. Some people are frauds and feel themselves great successes, for that matter! Yet who is most at risk for suicide? The people who think they’re frauds, not the ones who are frauds but who rationalize their behavior away…and, of course, there are also the people who are honest and know it and the people who are frauds and admit it and beat themselves up about it. My point is that one’s sense of whether one is being authentic is not a measure of whether one is in fact authentic. It is an extremely important part of one’s experience of life, don’t get me wrong. It just isn’t something that establishes a fact.

Let us talk about someone who has body integrity disorder, because that’s kind of neutral ground. You can have your foot in both worlds at the same time there, both knowing and not knowing what that is like. Also, this is someone that other people don’t have any reason to believe is different. He’s not someone who’s failing by his appearance to fit in someone else’s box, save his own. That simplifies the problem a little, because let’s face it, if he cuts off his hand, no one is going to know or hassle him about it, either way.

So let us say that someone is convinced their left hand does not belong on their body. We don’t know why. Reasonably speaking, it seems that there are only four alternatives:
  1. figure out how to convince him his body is really the way it ought to be…so far, this is unlikely to work, based on clinical evidence. Do we keep trying to find that way?
  2. let him think what he wants, but don’t allow him to cut his hand off and do what is necessary to keep him from killing himself or performing a self-amputation…a difficult prospect that does not relieve his desire to have the hand off or the anguish of always having it there, haunting him with its inappropriateness.
  3. remove the hand, not because it is objectively “wrong”, but because sometimes one organ must be sacrificed in order to save the whole body.
  4. believe him and conclude that he knows what belongs on his body, validate his testimony about himself, and remove the hand because he wants it off.
I think you’re at 4 with regards to your own problem, and I’m somewhere between 1 and 3. It is hard to watch you suffer. It is harder because I can’t make the world kinder to those they recognize as being different. Yet I have this interior resistance to the idea that you are incorrect, even if you have a different combination of hormones, DNA, and body part development than anyone I’ve ever met. I don’t see different as wrong, I don’t see a difficult life as being as wrong life, and I don’t see how to conclude that a person’s deeply-held believe trumps the physical evidence.

Or maybe it is like having Down Syndrome. If the person with DS could be made more typical in their physical and mental function, that would be great, most would want that, it would give them function that most of us are happy to have…but does that make the way they are a mistake? If they could lessen the symptoms of their genetic make-up, is that the same as changing their identity? Would any of us ever say that they are “wrong”?

There are people with ambiguous gender, of this there is no doubt. Some are even XXY and very ambigous in structure. I’m just not ready to say that someone with XY and an exterior typical of a male is really made a female by surgery or drugs. That doesn’t seem right. I don’t want to invalidate how they feel, I believe they feel the way they say they feel, but that still seems very wrong.
 
Thank you, you’re very kind. Let’s start with Dennis the Cat. He’s unusual. Maybe he’s unique. As you know, however, having a rare condition doesn’t make it less real. He may be somebody who was organically primed to fixate on something, just not something so specific as what is on your mind.

I am aware that suicide is a serious problem among people with gender identity disorder; I’m also aware that it is very difficult to get statistics for suicide rates. A person who had this disorder and hid it all their lives or who dealt with it themselves is never counted. The only transsexuals who are counted are the ones who decide that they need to express this difficulty to others. Likewise, because of the rejection of ambiguity found by the “buttoned-down” section of society, those who do transition may find themselves in a very different world than those who never do, a world in which behaviors that contribute to suicide and chaos are more prevalent, a world which is not as safe as a life “in hiding” in a lot of ways. The broad trend that this condition can raise suicidal thoughts is hard to argue with, but sorting out the variables has to be next to impossible. It is a very thorny problem.

As for deception, that has an objective and a subjective meaning and experience. Some people become great successes and feel themselves frauds, even though they are no such things. Some people are frauds and feel themselves great successes, for that matter! Yet who is most at risk for suicide? The people who think they’re frauds, not the ones who are frauds but who rationalize their behavior away…and, of course, there are also the people who are honest and know it and the people who are frauds and admit it and beat themselves up about it. My point is that one’s sense of whether one is being authentic is not a measure of whether one is in fact authentic. It is an extremely important part of one’s experience of life, don’t get me wrong. It just isn’t something that establishes a fact.

Let us talk about someone who has body integrity disorder, because that’s kind of neutral ground. You can have your foot in both worlds at the same time there, both knowing and not knowing what that is like. Also, this is someone that other people don’t have any reason to believe is different. He’s not someone who’s failing by his appearance to fit in someone else’s box, save his own. That simplifies the problem a little, because let’s face it, if he cuts off his hand, no one is going to know or hassle him about it, either way.

So let us say that someone is convinced their left hand does not belong on their body. We don’t know why. Reasonably speaking, it seems that there are only four alternatives:
  1. figure out how to convince him his body is really the way it ought to be…so far, this is unlikely to work, based on clinical evidence. Do we keep trying to find that way?
  2. let him think what he wants, but don’t allow him to cut his hand off and do what is necessary to keep him from killing himself or performing a self-amputation…a difficult prospect that does not relieve his desire to have the hand off or the anguish of always having it there, haunting him with its inappropriateness.
  3. remove the hand, not because it is objectively “wrong”, but because sometimes one organ must be sacrificed in order to save the whole body.
  4. believe him and conclude that he knows what belongs on his body, validate his testimony about himself, and remove the hand because he wants it off.
I think you’re at 4 with regards to your own problem, and I’m somewhere between 1 and 3. It is hard to watch you suffer. It is harder because I can’t make the world kinder to those they recognize as being different. Yet I have this interior resistance to the idea that you are incorrect, even if you have a different combination of hormones, DNA, and body part development than anyone I’ve ever met. I don’t see different as wrong, I don’t see a difficult life as being as wrong life, and I don’t see how to conclude that a person’s deeply-held believe trumps the physical evidence.

Or maybe it is like having Down Syndrome. If the person with DS could be made more typical in their physical and mental function, that would be great, most would want that, it would give them function that most of us are happy to have…but does that make the way they are a mistake? If they could lessen the symptoms of their genetic make-up, is that the same as changing their identity? Would any of us ever say that they are “wrong”?

There are people with ambiguous gender, of this there is no doubt. Some are even XXY and very ambigous in structure. I’m just not ready to say that someone with XY and an exterior typical of a male is really made a female by surgery or drugs. That doesn’t seem right. I don’t want to invalidate how they feel, I believe they feel the way they say they feel, but that still seems very wrong.
👍👍

This is a wonderful, thoughtful, compassionate post.
 
EasterJoy, I really appreciate you talking about this problem with me. I mentioned on another thread that the reason I came to this forum is because my Catholic father stopped talking to me after I came out as transgender, even though the rest of my family supports me. Your thoughtfulness has been very helpful, in dramatic contrast to the many hateful comments that have been directed towards me on other parts of the forum.

Are you deliberately using dialectical techniques? Are you familiar with Linehan? I heard she was Catholic, which I thought was quite interesting. I understand she was influenced by Buddhism, as I was at a young age. I wonder what she thinks of Paul McHugh’s constant invalidations of transgender people in relation to trans suicidality. Since she is a proven expert in suicidality and theorizes that extreme invalidation contributes to suicidality, I imagine she must be rather upset. Earlier I was reading up on McHugh’s current campaign to invalidate PTSD patients. Does he still think the DSM should bring back hysteria?
So let us say that someone is convinced their left hand does not belong on their body. We don’t know why. Reasonably speaking, it seems that there are only four alternatives:
The major difference right away is that I believe I know what’s going on in general. I have some gender variance issue. There are so many types of gender variance that it’s not likely a case of random mutation and it could be programmed into our genetics. If it were genetic, then one would expect to find historical references. The history of transcending gender goes back into the Old Testament, when it must have been prevalent enough to become taboo under Mosaic law.

Consider for a moment that Jesus was a healer, and people with diseases went to him for healing. Obviously, Matthew 5:29-30 is taken figuratively by most people. But if taken literally, could Jesus have been talking about someone with BIID, assuming that disorder existed in His time? Could He have been talking about people with BIID who wanted to rip out their eye or cut off their own hand?

Jesus mentions “eunuchs who were born that way” in Matthew 19:12 Could He have been talking about intersex people? What about “eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others?” Were those transsexual people who hired someone to castrate them, as today’s transsexuals often do?

Isn’t it reasonable to say that gender variance and body image issues have a long history? Isn’t it fair to say that that Jesus accepted those people and their behavior?
  1. figure out how to convince him his body is really the way it ought to be…so far, this is unlikely to work, based on clinical evidence. Do we keep trying to find that way?
  2. let him think what he wants, but don’t allow him to cut his hand off and do what is necessary to keep him from killing himself or performing a self-amputation…a difficult prospect that does not relieve his desire to have the hand off or the anguish of always having it there, haunting him with its inappropriateness.
  3. remove the hand, not because it is objectively “wrong”, but because sometimes one organ must be sacrificed in order to save the whole body.
  4. believe him and conclude that he knows what belongs on his body, validate his testimony about himself, and remove the hand because he wants it off.
I think you’re at 4 with regards to your own problem, and I’m somewhere between 1 and 3.
I think that’s a pretty good break down of the options and it’s definitely giving me some ideas.
  1. Paul McHugh seems to think talking people out of transsexuality is a good idea, and he doesn’t seem to mind that he is reviled in the transgender community.
  2. Lock the BIID patient up for the rest of his life? It seems like some people on this forum would prefer that method.
  3. I wouldn’t want to help the BIID patient help her cut her limbs off so I sympathize with the surgeon who is asked to do such a thing. But then, I couldn’t be a surgeon either.
  4. I appreciate skepticism towards my position, but it is my life and I am capable of informed consent. If I wanted just about any other corrective surgery, no one would question it as long as I could pay.
As I was considering your ideas, I started wondering if BIID, transsexuality, and Stalking Cat syndrome could be a family of disorders. Hypothetically there could be some body image region of the brain which could effect all three syndromes. That’s definitely something to consider.

Anyway, even if I were like the BIID people, I believe my condition encompasses a much larger part of my person than merely a limb. Considering that I have a stable adult identity for possibly the first time in my life, and it is female, I don’t see how I could possibly try to pretend to be male again. Losing a hand is one thing, losing one’s identity is much more serious.

The harsh emotions I have had in the past come from testosterone, and from being forced into the wrong gender role. I feel liberated about finally getting into the correct gender role and I feel healthy and more calm after reducing my testosterone. I’m excited to starting estrogen soon. Since I’ve had estrogen in my body my whole life, as all people do, I already know what it feels like and I can’t wait for my first big dose! 😃
There are people with ambiguous gender, of this there is no doubt. Some are even XXY and very ambigous in structure. I’m just not ready to say that someone with XY and an exterior typical of a male is really made a female by surgery or drugs. That doesn’t seem right. I don’t want to invalidate how they feel, I believe they feel the way they say they feel, but that still seems very wrong.
Karyotypes cost thousands of dollars so I haven’t had one. I don’t know what my chromosomes are, nor do I care. I have the mind of woman no matter what my body looks like. Wouldn’t you say the same thing about yourself? Don’t you “know” you’re a woman? What if I questioned your female identity for some reason I thought was important? Wouldn’t you find it strange?
 
I have a neuroscience background, and I can tell you that sometimes hormones are thrown off balance and the brain may not develop properly. You may have had a hormonal inbalance that caused too much estrogen to circulate and not enough testosterone throughout your life. All of your troubles may come down to a testosterone issue that has gone unresolved for many years.

I would think that a doctor may suggest hormone therapy, but instead of hormone therapy to make your body match your thinking, it could be hormone therapy to make your mind match the body. I assume you have a normal XY chromosome (it would be worth looking into to see if a genetic abnormality has caused this problem). You were born a male, you are a male, and of all the things your body has, your mind is the most “plastic”. It is infinitely safer to work on your depression and your thoughts than it is to change your entire body to fit something it is genetically not.
Giving testosterone to trans women has been tried. It doesn’t work. Testosterone makes things worse.

And no, the mind is not more plastic than the body. Getting brain surgery would be infinitely more dangerous than sex corrective surgery. Talk therapy has zero effect on nearly all transgender people.

Please do more research on the topic of transsexuality before posting any more erroneous advice.

ts-si.org/files/MDiamondClinImpOrgActHormones.pdf
I urge you to look into the therapies available to help you to feel more male, rather than trying to be female. Identity problems are incredibly complex, this could go all the way back to a birth defect of some sort. When other birth defects occur we do not try to enhance them, rather, we try to fix them to make things work properly again. I think in the long run you will be happier and healthier by making the (relatively) small and non-surgical change of increasing your masculinity- rather than the drastic change of seeking femininity. I am not discounting the great work it will take to adjust your thinking, I am merely noting that therapy is non-surgical and reversible. Surgery rarely is. There would be nothing worse than to drastically change your body, only to realize that you haven’t really fixed your problems.
Your identity issues may only be a manifestation of something much deeper such as the depression you have. It is a chicken or the egg issue. Are you depressed because you feel like a woman, or are you depressed and this causes the altered identity. Perhaps you are afraid of being the man you are really meant to be and this feels like a desire to avoid masculinity?
I wish you all the best, and I hope you pray a lot about this. In the words of my grandmother, “God doesn’t make junk”. You are a valuable life in this world. He didn’t create a man when he meant to create a woman. He created a man and somewhere along the way a physical or emotional injury took you off your course.
heilotes is clearly a transgender woman. Don’t invalidate her identity.
 
EasterJoy, I really appreciate you talking about this problem with me. I mentioned on another thread that the reason I came to this forum is because my Catholic father stopped talking to me after I came out as transgender, even though the rest of my family supports me. Your thoughtfulness has been very helpful, in dramatic contrast to the many hateful comments that have been directed towards me on other parts of the forum.

Are you deliberately using dialectical techniques? Are you familiar with Linehan? I heard she was Catholic, which I thought was quite interesting. I understand she was influenced by Buddhism, as I was at a young age. I wonder what she thinks of Paul McHugh’s constant invalidations of transgender people in relation to trans suicidality. Since she is a proven expert in suicidality and theorizes that extreme invalidation contributes to suicidality, I imagine she must be rather upset. Earlier I was reading up on McHugh’s current campaign to invalidate PTSD patients. Does he still think the DSM should bring back hysteria?

The major difference right away is that I believe I know what’s going on in general. I have some gender variance issue. There are so many types of gender variance that it’s not likely a case of random mutation and it could be programmed into our genetics. If it were genetic, then one would expect to find historical references. The history of transcending gender goes back into the Old Testament, when it must have been prevalent enough to become taboo under Mosaic law.

Consider for a moment that Jesus was a healer, and people with diseases went to him for healing. Obviously, Matthew 5:29-30 is taken figuratively by most people. But if taken literally, could Jesus have been talking about someone with BIID, assuming that disorder existed in His time? Could He have been talking about people with BIID who wanted to rip out their eye or cut off their own hand?

Jesus mentions “eunuchs who were born that way” in Matthew 19:12 Could He have been talking about intersex people? What about “eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others?” Were those transsexual people who hired someone to castrate them, as today’s transsexuals often do?

Isn’t it reasonable to say that gender variance and body image issues have a long history? Isn’t it fair to say that that Jesus accepted those people and their behavior?

I think that’s a pretty good break down of the options and it’s definitely giving me some ideas.
  1. Paul McHugh seems to think talking people out of transsexuality is a good idea, and he doesn’t seem to mind that he is reviled in the transgender community.
  2. Lock the BIID patient up for the rest of his life? It seems like some people on this forum would prefer that method.
  3. I wouldn’t want to help the BIID patient help her cut her limbs off so I sympathize with the surgeon who is asked to do such a thing. But then, I couldn’t be a surgeon either.
  4. I appreciate skepticism towards my position, but it is my life and I am capable of informed consent. If I wanted just about any other corrective surgery, no one would question it as long as I could pay.
As I was considering your ideas, I started wondering if BIID, transsexuality, and Stalking Cat syndrome could be a family of disorders. Hypothetically there could be some body image region of the brain which could effect all three syndromes. That’s definitely something to consider.

Anyway, even if I were like the BIID people, I believe my condition encompasses a much larger part of my person than merely a limb. Considering that I have a stable adult identity for possibly the first time in my life, and it is female, I don’t see how I could possibly try to pretend to be male again. Losing a hand is one thing, losing one’s identity is much more serious.

The harsh emotions I have had in the past come from testosterone, and from being forced into the wrong gender role. I feel liberated about finally getting into the correct gender role and I feel healthy and more calm after reducing my testosterone. I’m excited to starting estrogen soon. Since I’ve had estrogen in my body my whole life, as all people do, I already know what it feels like and I can’t wait for my first big dose! 😃

Karyotypes cost thousands of dollars so I haven’t had one. I don’t know what my chromosomes are, nor do I care. I have the mind of woman no matter what my body looks like. Wouldn’t you say the same thing about yourself? Don’t you “know” you’re a woman? What if I questioned your female identity for some reason I thought was important? Wouldn’t you find it strange?
Sorry it took awhile to get back to you.

No, this has always been the way I discuss things. I’ve gotten comments about it since I was in grade school.

Do I have the mind of a woman? That is an interesting question. I am told all the time that I don’t have a mind typical of men or women. When I was in grade school, lots of the girls were in cliques, so I played with the boys. I was not one of the boys, either. I also had a brother who liked to torment me as a child. I finally believed my mother, and figured out that I needed to detach from what he said or thought. After that I was tremendously happy and empowered. You have understand, though, that if you questioned my identity, it would fly in the face of what everyone else in my life had always said. And actually, since I’ve had two kids, if it turned out that I was an XY, well, as a scientist, that would be pretty amazing. I don’t mean that entirely tongue-in-cheek. I’d turn the world upside down. It would be a lot different than what you’ve gotten, that’s what I mean to say.

People do become suicidal because they’ve been deprived of roles that they strongly identify with. I don’t think the solution is to get the role back or to find a way to get into the role. That leaves these poor souls at the mercy of the validation of others, and at the mercy of fate. After all, if the DSM could make you a woman, then in five years the DSM could make you a man again. What comfort is there in that? I think the solution is to find validation that is not dependent on things and people beyond one’s control.

I don’t have to validate that you are a woman to validate you. It seems to me that your identity ultimately rests not with me, but with you. It’s like when someone invalidates my ideas. I get all in a twist about it, I can take it very seriously and complain that this is about objective truth, darn it, but if I don’t let it go eventually, it only makes me nuts.

This is how the conversation went, when I was freed of what my brother said.
He told me, as he often had, that I was stupid. For the first time ever, I replied: “You know, you’re right. I have to be the stupidest person you’ve ever met. I don’t know how you can stand to be around me.” He looked kind of disgusted with me, but he never did it again. And so, I suppose, you could say to people who invalidate you: “You know, you’re right. I think I’m a woman, but I’m actually man. I’m a man who is only asking to be left to dress as I please and to have the name I please and to have the pronouns I please and to mind your own business about what medications I’m on or what surgery I do or don’t decide to have. Go ahead and think I’m a man, let the bureaucrats write what they want in the box on my driver’s license, I’ll be happy to keep my private parts private, I don’t care if you don’t agree with what I think I am, but do mind your own business about it, quit staring, and do find a place for me to use a bathroom and to simply roam the world in safety. I would do the same for you, and I do mean that.” Who knows? You might even decide that you’re a woman with a penis–or a man who decided that his penis was too upsetting to keep–and that anyone who doesn’t like how you’re navigating your own inner life can go take a jump.

In other words, if you tell people you won’t invalidate their definition of a woman if they won’t invalidate yours, I don’t know what anyone could say about that, no matter what the DSM says. They could throw a hissy fit, but how is that in your control? The Church teaches that you’re a man, but the Church also teaches that no one has a right to deny you your basic dignity as a human being. If you can see your way to let go of the debate about the physical facts, and ask only to be given the dignity due you no matter which way the truth on that question falls, maybe that is the best we’ll get.

When people just cannot agree, maybe learning to detach from needing to correct each other’s convictions is not such a terrible way to live. It beats mere co-existence, I really think it does.

I hope the OP can do that, at any rate. If the dear one ever changes Mom’s mind, it probably won’t be soon enough. Better to be at peace now, and let Mom come around when or if she will. As for Mom, well, discussions about decisions that are not hers to make require patience, too. Everything will be put right on Judgement Day. Until then, we encourage others to do their best the best we can, and meanwhile we endure their encouragement the best we can. We all think we’re right, but we still have to live with each other. I think we’ll get points for that.
 
…anyone who doesn’t like how you’re navigating your own inner life can go take a jump…
Let me clarify, before someone beats me to it:

Could I be complicit in helping you do obtain surgery or medical treatment I believe to be objectively immoral for everyone? No. I know this presents you with practical and political obstacles, but as much as I believe that your decisions are yours to make, I can’t help you when you’re making a decision I believe to be morally wrong. The best I can do is to admit when I’ve exhausted the means within my control for convincing you to stick with what I believe to be objective moral law. There gets to be a point where I cross the line from protecting the vulnerable from themselves and avoiding complicity to attempting to control a will over which God himself has elected not to exercise control. There will always be arguments over where that line is, but as the Lord said “do not toss your pearls before swine”, I am assured that such a line does exist. Christians do not have to control everyone else in order to remain morally upright.

Other people are always going to be out there trying to prevent us from doing what we believe to be right. They’re going to persecute us for doing what we believe to be right. Of these, the Lord said, “Father, forgive them, they know not what they do.” Whether we are exercising control that others resent (whether by teaching with authority or by cleansing the Temple) or being controlled by those who ought not have authority over us (undergoing a Passion), Christ went there before we did.
 
I can’t help you when you’re making a decision I believe to be morally wrong.
Exactly which decision are you referring to? Is it the gender transition in general? Is it the “wrong” gendered clothing? Is it the use of the anti-androgen and estrogen replacement? Is it the surgery? All of the above?
The best I can do is to admit when I’ve exhausted the means within my control for convincing you to stick with what I believe to be objective moral law.
Exactly what do you mean by objective moral law with regards to whichever decision it was you were talking about? When I think of objectivity in terms of law, I think of some law which was written by some authority. I’m trying to find out how a Catholic might answer these kinds of questions so that I can begin to have this discussion with my father. It seems like the best thing that people can come up with so far is that the Mosaic law against cross dressing was maintained as a tradition. It also seems like people are hinting at something more than that, but I haven’t seen anything approaching an objective source.
 
EasterJoy, you’ve certainly given me a lot to think about, thank you. I really appreciate the tolerance you’ve shown me despite our disagreement. I wish more Catholics were as kind as you.

I have to admit the idea of validation is fairly new to me and I don’t fully understand it yet. Since I have begun identifying as a woman and all my friends and most of my family support me, I have felt much less of a need for validation from others. I believe it has something to do with identity consolidation, but I’m not sure about that. I suppose part of my declining concern about other peoples’ attitudes towards me is that I finally feel authentic with myself. That sense of wholeness is giving me the confidence to put up with the rare cases of hatred I sometimes face.

I don’t really buy into what the DSM says about gender identity issues. The fact is, there are more “gender-normative” people researching trans people than there are trans people researching trans people. That makes me skeptical of most of the research on the topic, considering that my own experience differs greatly from much of what I’ve read. Julia Serano’s writing in* Whipping Girl *stuck with me the most. Her view that trans women are fighting to be recognized as women was very empowering for me. We value femininity so highly that in order to attain it we are willing to give up male privilege. I would think that would be very empowering for other women. Trans women inherently attack the idea of male-superiority.
The Church teaches that you’re a man, but the Church also teaches that no one has a right to deny you your basic dignity as a human being.
Exactly which Church teaching are you referring to? Maybe I should ask one of the apologists to get to the bottom of this? It seems like more of an unwritten custom than anything official.
If you can see your way to let go of the debate about the physical facts, and ask only to be given the dignity due you no matter which way the truth on that question falls, maybe that is the best we’ll get.
In some sense I have given up on the debate about physical facts of my own experience and adopted an attitude of counterfactual definiteness. The interview with Laura Jane Grace that’s coming out today shows an attitude which seems common among trans women. When we hear the stories of other trans women, we realize that’s what happened to us. There is no way for you to empirically validate my subjective experience, but from my perspective, these are empirical facts. As a scientist, I follow the evidence.

It would be nice if people could trust each other enough to allow others to have their own experiences as long as they aren’t harming others. The world needs more people with your kind of attitude.
 
Exactly which decision are you referring to? Is it the gender transition in general? Is it the “wrong” gendered clothing? Is it the use of the anti-androgen and estrogen replacement? Is it the surgery? All of the above?

Exactly what do you mean by objective moral law with regards to whichever decision it was you were talking about? When I think of objectivity in terms of law, I think of some law which was written by some authority. I’m trying to find out how a Catholic might answer these kinds of questions so that I can begin to have this discussion with my father. It seems like the best thing that people can come up with so far is that the Mosaic law against cross dressing was maintained as a tradition. It also seems like people are hinting at something more than that, but I haven’t seen anything approaching an objective source.
I do not get knotted up over who wears lace, glitter, the color pink, or any of the rest. I am referring primarily to medical care, and a case in which you were asking me to provide material support for care I believed to be against my own morals. (I was dotting philosophical "i"s, that’s mostly what I was doing.)

I think when you are talking to a parent, you are not dealing with what is primarily a religious question, almost without exception concerning how religious the parent is. You are dealing with the identity of your relationship: is it no longer “father-son”?!? No longer “mother-son”? You see, your parents did not raise you to be a daughter. They raised you to be a son–not a son like anyone else’s son, but their son. No matter what mold they had in mind before you were born, you have become the definition of what their son is. I only mean to remind you that you are not the only one who has spent decades with a profound emotional stake in* your* gender identity! They were probably also raised in times when parental failure or upheaval was considered the most probable reason for gender dysphoria. (Anything your kid has that has “dys-” in it, you worry that your child is suffering out of some fault of yours! 😦 :crying:)

Please also remember that you have come to your present conclusion a) by a direct experience that has been both puzzling and yet always immediate to you, yet hidden or foreign to them and b) by an emotional period of agonizing that they were largely oblivious (or in denial) of. They can hardly guess where you’ve been! Yet that was how you came to accept your present conclusion. Whether your path is perfect or faulted, you have a lot of miles on them.

Imagine that you were a typical male, and you had gotten married to the girl next door, a lovely thing that your parents loved like another daughter. The two of you went off to some far distant land and had only indirect contact with your parents. While you were in this land, you were killed saving your wife’s life. Your wife was not sure at first whether you had been killed, but she grieved. The years past, and finally she found that you were not ever going to come back.

Now, your wife is now free to marry again. She misses you, but she has gone through the grieving process and has accepted your death. She accepts that you are in a better place. Not wanting to upset your parents and for various other reasons beyond her control, however, she waits until she sees them in person to tell them. She has finally found someone to help her through her grief and to live again, and she shows up at your parents’ door with this splendid new husband in tow.

Do you see how different the news of your death would seem to her than to them? Your wife would have gone through the emotional roller-coaster of losing you, of not knowing, of finally reaching closure. She is satisfied that you died doing what you loved and in a way that you would find fitting. Your remains were never recovered, but she is satisfied that you are in fact quite dead. She has come to the conclusion that it is time to move on with her life, and move on she has. You are gone, but she is happy. She cannot prove that you are dead, but she is satisfied that the preponderance of evidence is that you are gone.

Your wife could tell your parents this news without falling to pieces. She might even have difficulty hiding the delight she has in her new husband, who is a total stranger to your parents. Your parents, however happy they were to see your wife, would be immediately be sent into a state of shock by the news of your death. You might imagine what kind of emotions they would go through!

Your wife could not hurry them to the place she is in. There are no “right words” she could say to get them to where she is. She could not even be sure that they will ever get over their grief, and she cannot be sure they will not hold her to blame in some way. She certainly wouldn’t rush to say that you would be thrilled to know she’s finally re-married and found a way to be happy, even though she knows it to be true. I tell you: Even if she were their natural daughter and you were the boy next door that they had been happy to see you marry (an analogy much closer to your own), they still would go through very similar emotions at finding that the son they thought would put them in their graves is no longer.

When someone transitions, those who are “left behind” are dealt news akin to a death. They can’t know the inner turmoil. They weren’t there for the relief. They only know that someone they love is never coming back. It is a death for them. Even if they are happy for the person who got life because their loved one died, they still feel that loss, and they might feel it always.

You may not feel it, but you were lovable and loved just the way you were. That is what will be the big obstacle in dealing with your parents. If not for that, dealing with the religious aspects of your decision would be difficult enough, yes. Still, I think I would recognize that the loss of their son will be the most difficult. Maybe you would put the word “son” in quotes, but they are not likely to be ready to do that. If they are, I would not worry about the other aspects. That is the biggest mountain they will have to climb.
 
If I were to try to explain what I believe your position to be in a religious way, I think I would probably try to explain myself using the concept of “invincible ignorance” as an analogy. Ignorance is said to be invincible when a person is unable to rid himself of it notwithstanding the employment of moral diligence, that is, such as under the circumstances is, morally speaking, possible and obligatory.

You might explain that you have tried, tried like they cannot believe, to find a way to be a man. You’ve tried, you have worn yourself out and nearly killed yourself trying, heavens knows you know how much everyone you know has always wanted you to see it, but you absolutely cannot see it. Therefore, you have to conclude that you can only act according to what you can at least hope in. You are still “walking by faith, and not by sight”, but you are doing your moral best to be the person God made you to be. Encourage them to pray for you, by all means, do not give up discussions about this, and of course keep looking (as we all must when moral authority says we are in the wrong but we can’t see it) but start with the premise that one of the principles of Catholic moral theology is that the impossible is never obligatory. If it were possible to live as a man, you would be doing it. I guess I would start there.
 
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