Transgender children

[Allegra]

If it’s not hurting anyone else, I don’t see what the problem is. After all, it’s not my life.

It’s hurting that poor little girl. After an entire childhood of being relentlessly coached that she is a boy, she will be told prior to puberty that she either has to face the fact that everything she’s been taught from the age of two about her own identity is a lie, or that she must undergo an ongoing series of dangerous synthetic hormones in order to perpetuate her mother’s sick ploy for media attention. When she nears the legal age of majority, they will start pushing for mutilation of her reproductive system, unjustly condemning her to a life of sterility and sexual dysfunction. All because when she was two, she told her mom she was a boy named Tom. But hey, it’s not hurting you, so…

 

[Crown_of_Stars]

Eventually, there will be an uprising of special rights for transgender individuals. Gone will be the days of the single sex bathrooms.

It’s hurting the moral fiber of society. Does that not concern you a little?

I would hope they don’t carry this “gender confusion” thing to such an extreme. I’m still hoping this will die out, but I just don’t know. This is getting beyond crazy. This is not normal, and more and more people need to stop thinking it’s “mean” to say that and just admit it. It’s harmful to the soul, worst of all. Imagine that! Girls and boys in the same shower room together. I mean, really. The day the world becomes that way, and the day I need access to a public restroom and men are in there because they think they’re ladies…I think I’ll try to climb back up out of the rabbit hole we’ve seemed to have fallen down, or try to break the looking glass.

 

[Allegra]

I would hope they don’t carry this “gender confusion” thing to such an extreme. I’m still hoping this will die out, but I just don’t know. This is getting beyond crazy. This is not normal, and more and more people need to stop thinking it’s “mean” to say that and just admit it. It’s harmful to the soul, worst of all. Imagine that! Girls and boys in the same shower room together. I mean, really. The day the world becomes that way, and the day I need access to a public restroom and men are in there because they think they’re ladies…I think I’ll try to climb back up out of the rabbit hole we’ve seemed to have fallen down, or try to break the looking glass.

I’m more concerned about the damage being done to the individual children involved. Frankly, I don’t think school kids should be required to use “shower rooms” anyway. Even back when I attended high school, we had individual shower stalls for privacy. Furthermore, if I walked into a restroom and saw a person who appeared to be a man, I would most likely be just as uncomfortable, even if it turned out that he really was a woman underneath. I don’t want either men or women leering at me in the restroom and I would want a voyeur arrested, regardless of their sex, real or perceived.

 

[Thorolfr]

When my son was newly diagnosed with autism, he wanted to eat sand (an issue called pica). Did I allow that? No. I took him to therapies to learn how to eat. My son insisted on a LOT of things that were unhealthy. Prayer, courage and strength made him into the fine young man he’s growing up to be. I shutter to think where he would be if my husband and I didn’t guide him away from things that could harm him physically and emotionally.

You can’t assume that things like this can be fixed by sending people to therapy. Many lesbians and gay men also report that they knew they were different even as children. And these people also will not be fixed by sending them to therapy so that they will grow up heterosexual. At least part of these kinds of things are probably influenced at least in part by something biological.

 

[Allegra]

You can’t assume that things like this can be fixed by sending people to therapy. Many lesbians and gay men also report that they knew they were different even as children. And these people also will not be fixed by sending them to therapy so that they will grow up heterosexual. At least part of these kinds of things are probably influenced at least in part by something biological.

This is somewhat of different issue than a sexual preference. A person with this delusion obsessively insists that the physical reality of their body is “wrong”. It’s really much more similar to a person with body dismorphia syndrome, where they are convinced they are deformed and outrageously hideous, even though they appear normal to everyone else. Or certain types of anorexia, where they persistently believe they too fat when they are obviously grossly underweight. There are effective treatments for such disorders currently in use, and if society would stop wasting time pretending that the physical reality of one’s body was a casual choice that a person can make at will, there would probably be more meaningful research done on even more effective treatments. However, this disorder is different from those other disorders because it involves sex, and we all know that the cardinal rule of our current society is that any sexual thought, desire, preference, or act must be affirmed and normalized. (except rape and pedophilia…for now.)

 

[Thorolfr]

This is somewhat of different issue than a sexual preference. A person with this delusion obsessively insists that the physical reality of their body is “wrong”.

Why is it so different? I’m constantly told here in CAF that gay people should realize that the physical reality of their bodies makes it plain that they should have been heterosexual but that something has apparently “gone wrong” so that their sexual attractions are disordered. In both cases there is, according to people here in CAF, a disconnect between the physical reality of these people’s bodies and what they want to do with their bodies.

 

[Rau]

Why is it so different? I’m constantly told here in CAF that gay people should realize that the physical reality of their bodies makes it plain that they should have been heterosexual but that something has apparently “gone wrong” so that their sexual attractions are disordered. In both cases there is, according to people here in CAF, a disconnect between the physical reality of these people’s bodies and what they want to do with their bodies.

I guess it is, arguably, a matter of degree. “This body does not belong on me” is more extreme than “it’s natural to use this body with a non complelmentary partner”.

 

[1990Domer]

This is the article I was looking for.

cnsnews.com/news/article/michael-w-chapman/johns-hopkins-psychiatrist-transgender-mental-disorder-sex-change

Parents make important decisions in the lives of their children. Sadly, this mom is doing her little girl immeasurable harm. Very sad. Glamorizing the OPs story just plants this idea in the minds of other parents who want their 2 minutes of fame.

 

[Rau]

This is the article I was looking for.

cnsnews.com/news/article/michael-w-chapman/johns-hopkins-psychiatrist-transgender-mental-disorder-sex-change

Parents make important decisions in the lives of their children. Sadly, this mom is doing her little girl immeasurable harm. Very sad. Glamorizing the OPs story just plants this idea in the minds of other parents who want their 2 minutes of fame.

Fair enough (the article you link). But it begs the question “what is a mental illness”? How is it to be treated? Surgery seems to be about relieving Symptoms (to the extent that works), and need not be understood as rectifying something about the body.

 

[francisca]

If it’s not hurting anyone else, I don’t see what the problem is. After all, it’s not my life.

In the op case, if the parent then help her to become tom, then the parent is hurting the child by misguidance in finding her true gender identity.

Preference of clothes and names in a child of 2.5 year old most likely is about stereotyping in theirstorybook, or something they watch in television. He/ she wants to identify themselves like the hero they watch/ read in television/ storybook.

The fact that psychology nowadays include “new chapters” in their text books which sees mental health as separate from physical body is the real problem.

 

[Allegra]

Why is it so different? I’m constantly told here in CAF that gay people should realize that the physical reality of their bodies makes it plain that they should have been heterosexual but that something has apparently “gone wrong” so that their sexual attractions are disordered. In both cases there is, according to people here in CAF, a disconnect between the physical reality of these people’s bodies and what they want to do with their bodies.

Homosexuality is a exclusive desire to engage in sexual behaviors that don’t fulfill the natural biological and psychological purposes of sexual unions. (The creation and bonding of family units.) The main reason that homosexual orientations are disordered aren’t that they depart from physical reality. A homosexual man still knows he’s a man and a homosexual woman knows that she’s a woman. The disordered part lies mainly in the fact that such exclusive desires preclude the homosexual person from bonding appropriately with a partner of the opposite sex and creating a family through their sexual union. That’s an objective reality that even most homosexuals would agree with. The morality of homosexual acts and the adoption or purchase of children as a substitute for the natural order of things is a separate philosophical issue on which there is much disagreement, but there isn’t much disagreement on the hard facts regarding the physical realities of the situation.

Trandgenderism is a completely different kind of disorder. It isn’t an orientation toward a behavior or a sexual preference. It’s an obsession with the idea that a physical reality is in fact an unreality. In other words, it’s a delusion.

If you’ve heard arguments regarding homosexuality that suggest that homosexuals are delusional, I think you’ve been arguing with someone who doesn’t really understand what homosexuality is. At any rate, the Church doesn’t teach that homosexuality is a delusion.

 

[PolarGuy]

One additional thought: many, many couples “really want a girl” (or a boy!). Many of us probably know a couple with, say 3 boys, where the third boy came about because the parents really wanted to try for a girl. I’d not doubt for a minute that in some of these weird cases like the one we’re discussing, somewhere the parents have privately or quietly wanted the child to be the other gender and they are (wrongly) seeing the child’s desire as somehow indicative that “it was meant to be after all.” In other words, the parents’ own desires feed this. Either way, it’s a horrible disservice to the children involved.

 

[punisherthunder]

A few months ago there was the Bruce Jenner interview on 20/20. I was visiting my parents and they wanted to watch it, so I sat with them.

At one point there was some doctor in California that said children as young as 1 years old can identify and declare they are of the wrong gender. The example given was a 1 year old girl who said the word “boy”.

An actual medical doctor was convinced that the child need surgery, hormones, medicines, etc.

 

[Faith1960]

most two and a half year olds can’t speak clearly.

I doubt this story is true.

And if it is, Mom should not have encouraged it. She should have just considered it a phase.

If MELANIE said she wanted to be called Spot and start being treated like a dog, should Mom have said okay and start making her sleep in a dog house? Or feed her dog food? make her drink water from a dog bowl?

Where does it end?

I agree.

 

[Allegra]

One additional thought: many, many couples “really want a girl” (or a boy!). Many of us probably know a couple with, say 3 boys, where the third boy came about because the parents really wanted to try for a girl. I’d not doubt for a minute that in some of these weird cases like the one we’re discussing, somewhere the parents have privately or quietly wanted the child to be the other gender and they are (wrongly) seeing the child’s desire as somehow indicative that “it was meant to be after all.” In other words, the parents’ own desires feed this. Either way, it’s a horrible disservice to the children involved.

I actually know a family like this. They had three children at the beginning of their marriage, all boys. After the youngest got into high school, they got pregnant again and the mother was convinced that baby was the girl she always wanted, despite the opinions of the doctors. She decorated the room in neutrals because she was convince d the doctor was wrong. She was disappointed beyond belief when he was born and he really was a boy. She was actually hospitalized for almost two weeks for severe post-partum depression. Anyway, she seemed to get over it, but then the dad noticed that the mom kept buying toys that seemed really “girlish” to him. (Mostly dolls, stuffed animals, and house play toys like plastic food and dishes.) Her excuse was that it was only society’s gender dysfunctions that labeled those toys as “girl toys”, which he accepted. It was still strange though since she had bought nothing but trucks and tool toys with their older three.

Then all the sudden, when it was time for them to start considering which school to send him to, she completely deep sixed on him and began demanding home schooling, which they had never even discussed as an option and hadn’t even considered with their other three. He went along with that too. Then he found the trash bag full of dresses in the hall closet. Apparently a friend-of-a-friend from out of town dropped them off for her to give to another friend-of-a-friend and they hadn’t come to collect them yet. Then his neighbor made a comment about seeing a little girl playing in his yard… It was probably just the neighbor’s kid, sneaking over to play on their swingset.

It took the dad almost seven years to figure out that his wife was dressing up his son as a girl while he was at work and making him play princess tea party on a daily basis and that was pretty much the end of their marriage. He still lives across the street from my parents, and his son is a college student now. Fortunately, there were no doctors in those days that were willing to do hormonal manipulations on children or else his mother would have probably tried to get that done as well!

 

[Allegra]

I agree.

My daughter isn’t even two yet and she’s told me before that she’s a cat. She doesn’t have to speak that clearly in order to communicate that idea, especially if I coach her with “Do you have whiskers?”
“Yeah! See whiskers?”
“Do you have a tail?”
“Yeah! A tail!”
“What color are you?”
“Black! Like Auntie’s kitty!”
“What’s your name?”
“Boots!” (Auntie’s cat’s name.)

My niece was also able to elaborately make up characters to play when she was two. I don’t doubt that a child might say something like this and even adamantly repeat it for some time. That doesn’t make it true.

 

[1990Domer]

Fair enough (the article you link). But it begs the question “what is a mental illness”? How is it to be treated? Surgery seems to be about relieving Symptoms (to the extent that works), and need not be understood as rectifying something about the body.

I think the salient point is that expensive gender reassignment surgery and hormones are treatments that do not improve the outcome of the person’s happiness–they remain depressed, suicidal.

There are a variety of ways mental illness is treated–drug regimens with cognitive behavioral therapy is popular. There are mental assessment tests. But, I will go back to autism. Is that a developmental or learning disability? How severe on the spectrum are these kids? These are all subjective opinions of the testers. There is no gold standard here.

I agree with the poster who said that gender dysphoria is much like eating disorders. There is a disconnect between what the brain is telling these people and reality. Compassion is certainly needed, but enabling won’t help anyone.

 

[Allegra]

Compassion is certainly needed, but enabling won’t help anyone.

I wouldn’t be so concerned if it just amounted to enabling a deranged adult. But this is so much worse than that. This is being done to CHILDREN! An innocent child acts out an innocent child’s fantasy at two, and the result is a childhood filled with brainwashing, visits to so-called “doctors”, and possibly the medical and surgical destruction and mutilation of her body! We aren’t enabling a delusional child at this point, we’re enabling a delusional parent and what we are enabling them to do is commit a massive violence to a helpless little girl!

 

[Rau]

I think the salient point is that expensive gender reassignment surgery and hormones are treatments that do not improve the outcome of the person’s happiness–they remain depressed, suicidal.

There are a variety of ways mental illness is treated–drug regimens with cognitive behavioral therapy is popular. There are mental assessment tests. But, I will go back to autism. Is that a developmental or learning disability? How severe on the spectrum are these kids? These are all subjective opinions of the testers. There is no gold standard here.

I agree with the poster who said that gender dysphoria is much like eating disorders. There is a disconnect between what the brain is telling these people and reality. Compassion is certainly needed, but enabling won’t help anyone.

I was not making a case for surgery, just identifying its intent. Adults pursuing the surgery, as I understand it, aren’t seeking to correct bodily errors, but overcome a painful dissonance. Ideally there should be a better way than butchering the body, but we don’t hear much about these treatments and their effectiveness, if they exist. The McHugh data says the surgery is not particularly helpful. I don’t know whether that is a definitive finding.

 

[lovemyjob]

You can’t assume that things like this can be fixed by sending people to therapy. Many lesbians and gay men also report that they knew they were different even as children. And these people also will not be fixed by sending them to therapy so that they will grow up heterosexual. At least part of these kinds of things are probably influenced at least in part by something biological.

They don’t need to be fixed; they need to be loved for who they are – children of God.

They also don’t need to be lied to and told they can change their gender.