Transgender children

[InSearchofGrace]

It is not only false, but perniciously false to claim that it “rose to twenty times that of comparable peers” as they were matched to general population not to transgender people who did not undergo surgery and also they did not look at suicide attempt rate before surgery. Furthermore the increased suicide attempt risk only existed for those who had SRS before 1989 when the world was far more brutal towards transgender people.

I would not say that. Dr. McHugh cited the Swedish study with which he had no connection or role. I did not find the purported statement by him that the suicide rate being 20 times that of comparable peers. He did seize on the findings of said Swedish study, and according to this article, cnsnews.com/news/article/michael-w-chapman/johns-hopkins-psychiatrist-transgender-mental-disorder-sex-change,
he is reported as saying a “study showing that the suicide rate among transgendered people who had reassignment surgery is 20 times higher than the suicide rate among non-transgender people.”

We see much editorializing in news on the subject, especially when statements are supposedly made on the subject by Dr. McHugh, who is vilified by the transgender population for shutting down the Johns Hopkins program. These SRS advocates want the worst light shed on the doctor. Advocates do not see that there is indeed a parallel of transgenderism with anorexia nervosa and body integrity identity disorder.
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[InSearchofGrace]

…

The Islamic Republic of Iran isn’t exactly a secular Western country yet SRS and such have been legal for over 15 years.

That’s true. Iran’s dealing with openly transsexual citizens willing to surgically alter their body is a paradoxical aspect of the administration’s method of “curing” homosexuals. I understand Khomeini during the revolution was somehow convinced that SRS would be more acceptable for those who wish to be the other sex and therefore issued a fatwa allowing it to a society that considers gay sex as a crime punishable by death (to this day). Transgender men and women pre and post surgery are still stigmatized in Iranian society.

At any rate, people in Iran are mostly Shia Muslims. The poster indicates he is Sufi, and he can correct me if I am wrong in that the Sufi sect falls under the Sunni brand of Islam. Muslims in Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey and Indonesia are largely Sunnis.
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[ucfengr]

There’s an interesting story about transgender children in today’s Guardian:

theguardian.com/society/2015/sep/12/transgender-children-have-to-respect-who-he-is

If by interesting you mean in the sense that “reality TV” like “The Kardashians” or “Honey Boo Boo” is interesting, I’d be inclined to agree with you, but if you mean interesting in the sense that “this is a great thing we should all be celebrating”, not so much.

 

[Thorolfr]

At any rate, people in Iran are mostly Shia Muslims. The poster indicates he is Sufi, and he can correct me if I am wrong in that the Sufi sect falls under the Sunni brand of Islam. Muslims in Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey and Indonesia are largely Sunnis.
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Sufism is not a sect. It is the mystical dimension or expression of Islam in the same way that the writings of Meister Eckhart, Julian of Norwich, St. John of the Cross, and even some of the writings of Thomas Merton are part of the mystical expression of Catholicism. It is true, however, the mysticism is more well developed within Islam than it is within Christianity. Also, although most Sufi orders are Sunni, there are some Shi’a ones, too, such as the Nimatullahi order.

 

[Thorolfr]

Here’s something new in the news about transgender people:

Transgender people face roadblocks in accessing healthcare, and it’s not going away even after archaic rules denying healthcare access to transgender people are lifted and more of us become insured.

Over a decade ago I came out as a transgender woman and began to navigate my transition. That’s when I was confronted by the harsh fact that transition-related healthcare was often not covered by insurance and instead largely paid for out of pocket.

This month, the United States Department of Health and Human Services announced new proposed regulations that would expand healthcare access to transgender people. That’s exciting news, especially for those currently denied insurance coverage or who have have experienced discrimination at the hands of a healthcare provider because of their gender identity.

Only 10 states currently prohibit insurance exclusions for transgender healthcare. And if approved, the rule would increase access to medically necessary and potentially life-saving healthcare services for transgender people.

theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/sep/16/trans-people-denied-healthcare-federal-law

 

[Rau]

Here’s something new in the news about transgender people:

theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/sep/16/trans-people-denied-healthcare-federal-law

I am sure that healthcare is available for transgender persons. The debate may be around what constitutes “healthcare”, and whether services wanted by some are paid for by government programs or not.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

I would not say that. Dr. McHugh cited the Swedish study with which he had no connection or role. I did not find the purported statement by him that the suicide rate being 20 times that of comparable peers. He did seize on the findings of said Swedish study, and according to this article, cnsnews.com/news/article/michael-w-chapman/johns-hopkins-psychiatrist-transgender-mental-disorder-sex-change,
he is reported as saying a “study showing that the suicide rate among transgendered people who had reassignment surgery is 20 times higher than the suicide rate among non-transgender people.”

We see much editorializing in news on the subject, especially when statements are supposedly made on the subject by Dr. McHugh, who is vilified by the transgender population for shutting down the Johns Hopkins program. These SRS advocates want the worst light shed on the doctor. Advocates do not see that there is indeed a parallel of transgenderism with anorexia nervosa and body integrity identity disorder.
,

I never said McHugh said that.

The study shows that, but only for people who had surgery before 1989 which was a rather long time ago when discussing things like how transgender people are treated. 27 years ago losing a job, losing housing, being divorced, suffering physical violence were normal things for transgender people to deal with and they increase the risk of suicide.

If it hasn’t been valid since 1989 then it makes no sense to use the data to try to argue against surgery now.

Being transgender and having anorexia nervosa are definitely different.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

…

Being transgender and having anorexia nervosa are definitely different.

No, there is a definite parallel.

Excerpts from The Absurdity of Transgenderism

thepublicdiscourse.com/2015/02/14305/

Our mental faculties, like our physical ones, are ordered toward various ends. Among these ends is the attainment of truth. To this extent, it is perfective of our mental faculties to recognize how we truly are (and thus apprehend a truth). It is for this reason that we can make sense of mental disorders such as anorexia nervosa as disorders: they involve persons’ having persistent, false beliefs about their identity or how they really are. In the case of the anorexic, someone who is dangerously underweight believes falsely (but tenaciously) that he is really overweight. It would be a proper procedure of medicine, then, for a therapist to help an anorexic individual to do away with his anorexia, restoring the individual’s mental faculties to their properly functioning state.

The transgendered suffer a disorder of “assumption” like those in other disorders familiar to psychiatrists. With the transgendered, the disordered assumption is that the individual differs from what seems given in nature—namely one’s maleness or femaleness. Other kinds of disordered assumptions are held by those who suffer from anorexia and bulimia nervosa, where the assumption that departs from physical reality is the belief by the dangerously thin that they are overweight.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Why children with gender dysphoria should wait to transition.

wsj.com/articles/notable-quotable-transgender-children-1441406728

As to the medical risks of transitioning in transgender kids, there is much that even experts do not know. Parents, take note.

pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/health-science-technology/growing-up-trans/when-transgender-kids-transition-medical-risks-are-both-known-and-unknown/
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[Exiled_Child]

Gee, it’s great to know that the Tavistock and Portman Gender Identity Development Service is there to “help.”

tavistockandportman.uk/care-and-treatment/information-parents-and-carers/our-clinical-services/gender-identity-development

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

No, there is a definite parallel.

Excerpts from The Absurdity of Transgenderism

thepublicdiscourse.com/2015/02/14305/

While there are similarities there are also substantial differences. In anorexia nervosa one is not aware of the form of one’s body and believes they are fat which causes distress despite them being excessively thin. In comparison with gender dysphoria one is acutely aware of the form of one’s body and this is the source of distress, for example a transwoman who has not started hormones would almost certainly perceive their body as masculine and rightly so which would cause them substantial distress. Does that make sense?

Why children with gender dysphoria should wait to transition.

wsj.com/articles/notable-quotable-transgender-children-1441406728

As to the medical risks of transitioning in transgender kids, there is much that even experts do not know. Parents, take note.

pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/health-science-technology/growing-up-trans/when-transgender-kids-transition-medical-risks-are-both-known-and-unknown/
,

The first one is behind a paywall as to the latter it is normal for relatively new treatments to have somethings unknown.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

While there are similarities there are also substantial differences. In anorexia nervosa one is not aware of the form of one’s body and believes they are fat which causes distress despite them being excessively thin. In comparison with gender dysphoria one is acutely aware of the form of one’s body and this is the source of distress, for example a transwoman who has not started hormones would almost certainly perceive their body as masculine and rightly so which would cause them substantial distress. Does that make sense?

I understand that transgender patients live with substantial distress.

It is not surprising because they reject their physical sex, maintaining that their true sex is dictated by or resides in their mind. Non acceptance of objective truth causes incongruence, much discomfort and mental stress.

The first one is behind a paywall as to the latter it is normal for relatively new treatments to have somethings unknown.

Reproduced below from an alternate link

Why Transgenders Kids Should Wait to Transition

Most gender dysphoric children outgrow their dysphoria, and do so by adolescence.

My point of view is controversial, but it is one that concerned parents need to hear.

I was your typical, gender atypical little girl. My friends were all boys. My favorite pastimes included rough-and-tumble play and running around the house while waving my he-man sword high in the air. I insisted on using the toilet while standing up. I hated dolls and the color pink.

I dreaded puberty, and when that inevitable time came, I was relieved to find that my body didn’t undergo too many physical changes aside from a self-induced shaved head.

Then something bizarre happened—I reached my late teens, and for the first time on my own volition, I fancied putting on a dress. The idea of appearing feminine no longer repulsed me, so I grew my hair long and began carrying a purse.

I was lucky in that my parents were never troubled by my gender non-conformity. They allowed me to dress how I pleased and to pursue the interests I enjoyed.

Now, as a cisgender woman in my thirties and a sex researcher, I follow the current discourse on transgender children’s issues. The predominant narrative is imbalanced and this must be addressed—for the sake of trans children, their families, and medical decision-making.

Popular opinion suggests that early intervention is the necessary approach in order to remedy a child’s gender dysphoria. This consists of early social transitioning followed by hormone blockers to prevent the otherwise irreversible changes of puberty, contra-sex hormones, and, if desired, eventual sex re-assignment surgery. Denying a child these interventions is viewed as antiquated and cruel.

But research has shown that most gender dysphoric children outgrow their dysphoria, and do so by adolescence: Most will grow up to be happy, gay adults, and some, like myself, to be happy, straight adults. There is a small proportion of trans kids whose dysphoria will persist and who would benefit from medical intervention, but the tricky part remains predicting whom these ideal candidates will be.

For a young child whose gender dysphoria would have desisted without intervention, these procedures amount to a needlessly challenging process to undergo—and that’s without considering the implications of choosing to transition back. Even a social transition back to one’s original gender role can be an emotionally difficult experience for children.

Waiting until a child has reached cognitive maturity before making these sorts of decisions would make the most sense. But this is an unpopular stance, and scientists and clinicians who support it are vilified, not because science—which should be our guiding beacon—disproves it, but because it has been deemed insensitive and at odds with the current ideology.

I often wonder, as I review the myriad of editorials and magazine articles published every day on transgender kids, if I had been born 20 years later, would adults in my life be suggesting transitioning as a solution for me? Even more alarmingly, with all of the information floating around the Internet and on mainstream TV, would I myself believe that I had an issue that would not eventually subside on its own?

I was lucky in that my parents were never troubled by my gender non-conformity. They allowed me to dress how I pleased and to pursue the interests I enjoyed. The only thing they remained firm about was my sitting down to use the toilet, but that was more about the mess I would otherwise make than any socially reinforced gender norms.

Outgrowing my discomfort resulted from the realization that gender does not need to be binary. To this day, I still feel that I am more masculine than most natal females, but also much more feminine than most natal males. We can have the best of both worlds.

I urge families, who are struggling through a sea of mixed information and unknowns, to not act in haste. Know that your support and acceptance will help your child survive this difficult time so that, together, you can make an informed decision when they are ready.

psmag.com/health-and-behavior/why-transgender-kids-should-wait-to-transition

It is prudent to hold off on new and controversial treatment. It would be wise to have children achieve cognitive maturity before they are allowed or encouraged to transition.
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[Thorolfr]

It is not surprising because they reject their physical sex, maintaining that their true sex is dictated by or resides in their mind. Non acceptance of objective truth causes incongruence, much discomfort and mental stress,

If a person’s body is wired for one gender and their mind for another, why does the body take precedence?

In the comments after an online article about transgender people I was reading recently, someone commented that their body had a mosaic where some cells are XX and some are XY. So what gender is that person?

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

I understand that transgender patients live with substantial distress.

It is not surprising because they reject their physical sex, maintaining that their true sex is dictated by or resides in their mind. Non acceptance of objective truth causes incongruence, much discomfort and mental stress.

For many of them they spent substantial portions of their life trying extremely hard to accept their body as is

Reproduced below from an alternate link

psmag.com/health-and-behavior/why-transgender-kids-should-wait-to-transition

It is prudent to hold off on new and controversial treatment. It would be wise to have children achieve cognitive maturity before they are allowed or encouraged to transition.
,

She neither said she identified as male nor did she tell anyone.

 

[zz912]

You can’t assume that things like this can be fixed by sending people to therapy. Many lesbians and gay men also report that they knew they were different even as children. And these people also will not be fixed by sending them to therapy so that they will grow up heterosexual. At least part of these kinds of things are probably influenced at least in part by something biological.

From a lot of evidence available, the lack of a loving and stable relationship with their father appears to have a major impact on their homosexual desires. It’s tough to even find one who has a good/loving relationship with their father.

 

[Thorolfr]

From a lot of evidence available, the lack of a loving and stable relationship with their father appears to have a major impact on their homosexual desires. It’s tough to even find one who has a good/loving relationship with their father.

That’s not true. I know of many gay people (myself included) who had normal childhoods and loving parents.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

If a person’s body is wired for one gender and their mind for another, why does the body take precedence?

In the comments after an online article about transgender people I was reading recently, someone commented that their body had a mosaic where some cells are XX and some are XY. So what gender is that person?

The commenter probably has a sexual development disorder or intersex condition that is a mosaic karyotype (chromosome picture), i.e., the person has one kind of karyotype in some of his or her cells, and a different karyotype in other cells. An example is when a person is said to have a 45,X/46,XX karyotype; that means he or she has 46,X in some cells, and 46,XX in other cells. Mosaicism happens because sometimes cells divide incorrectly early in the life of an embryo.

I suggest you go on the Intersex Society of North America site if you want to research on the intersex condition. The page link to the mosaic syndrome is this

isna.org/faq/conditions/mosaicism

One of the frequently asked questions is

What’s the difference between being transgender or transsexual and having an intersex condition?

…
People who have intersex conditions have anatomy that is not considered typically male or female. Most people with intersex conditions come to medical attention because doctors or parents notice something unusual about their bodies. In contrast, people who are transgendered have an internal experience of gender identity that is different from most people.

Many people confuse transgender and transsexual people with people with intersex conditions because they see two groups of people who would like to choose their own gender identity and sometimes those choices require hormonal treatments and/or surgery. These are similarities. It’s also true, albeit rare, that some people who have intersex conditions also decide to change genders at some point in their life, so some people with intersex conditions might also identify themselves as transgender or transsexual.

In spite of these similarities, these two groups should not be and cannot be thought of as one. The truth is that the vast majority of people with intersex conditions identify as male or female rather than transgender or transsexual. Thus, where all people who identify as transgender or transsexual experience problems with their gender identity, only a small portion of intersex people experience these problems.

…

Read the whole answer here

isna.org/faq/transgender

 

[Thorolfr]

The commenter probably has a sexual development disorder or intersex condition that is a mosaic karyotype (chromosome picture), i.e., the person has one kind of karyotype in some of his or her cells, and a different karyotype in other cells. An example is when a person is said to have a 45,X/46,XX karyotype; that means he or she has 46,X in some cells, and 46,XX in other cells. Mosaicism happens because sometimes cells divide incorrectly early in the life of an embryo.

I suggest you go on the Intersex Society of North America site if you want to research on the intersex condition. The page link to the mosaic syndrome is this

isna.org/faq/conditions/mosaicism

One of the frequently asked questions is

What’s the difference between being transgender or transsexual and having an intersex condition?

Read the whole answer here

isna.org/faq/transgender

I understand, but it seems to me that you are kind of avoiding the original question I asked. Why does one part of the body have precedence over another in deciding what sex or gender a person has? If someone is truly Intersex, must they pick one gender over another and say, “I’m male” or “I’m female” even though they might have characteristics of both a man and a woman? In my opinion, reality is sometimes much more complicated than many people pretend. And if the mind/brain is not in accord with the rest of the body as appears to be true in transgender people, why is the mind obviously the broken part that must be fixed?

 

[InSearchofGrace]

That’s not true. I know of many gay people (myself included) who had normal childhoods and loving parents.

An explanation to the homosexual condition invariably falls short because of exceptions to the general rule so to speak. In addition, adequate history taking is impossible to do on an Internet site.

I have several brothers and the middle one is gay. The two before him and those after him in the birth order are not. I will say that we also grew with normal childhoods and loving parents, but what was different with the middle brother? He grew to be the most handsome of all, actually.

In looking back, I remember our father was not available to him like he was with his first sons, because he was so busy during a certain stage in making a living to provide for an expanding family. My gay brother always felt close to our mother, but I will not say that she was especially close to him more than with the others. For sure, intersibling relations figure in family dynamics that affect a growing child.

But who really knows, Thor. Fortunately, it is being increasingly recognized that homosexual and transgender people need to be understood and treated better.

Although Catholics are not immune from committing wrongdoing and showing unkindness towards this group of people, the Catholic teaching is the best of all, in my humble opinion.
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[Thorolfr]

In looking back, I remember our father was not available to him like he was with his first sons, because he was so busy during a certain stage in making a living to provide for an expanding family. My gay brother always felt close to our mother, but I will not say that she was especially close to him more than with the others. For sure, intersibling relations figure in family dynamics that affect a growing child.

I don’t know what causes people to be attracted to one sex or the other or to both. But I don’t think that the old theories about absent or distant fathers and smothering mothers are very convincing. I have always felt closer to my father than to my mother and still do. And I’m an only child, so no intersibling relations involved in how I turned out.

I’ve also lived in parts of the world where bisexuality seems to be more common among men than it is in the US and think that minus social and cultural influences that try to enforce a binary system, perhaps most people have the capacity to be more bisexual and to be attracted to both sexes. I also think that human beings tend to be less hardwired than most other life forms on our planet.