Transgender children

[Rau]

I understand, but it seems to me that you are kind of avoiding the original question I asked. Why does one part of the body have precedence over another in deciding what sex or gender a person has? If someone is truly Intersex, must they pick one gender over another and say, “I’m male” or “I’m female” even though they might have characteristics of both a man and a woman? In my opinion, reality is sometimes much more complicated than many people pretend. And if the mind/brain is not in accord with the rest of the body as appears to be true in transgender people, why is the mind obviously the broken part that must be fixed?

It may be difficult to know the answer to that, given the starting point acknowledges things have gone wrong. Presumably, we hold out a hope that, in some cases at least, the mind/brain is somewhat malleable (or even able to be soothed) whereas the body in any real sense is not.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

It may be difficult to know the answer to that, given the starting point acknowledges things have gone wrong. Presumably, we hold out a hope that, in some cases at least, the mind/brain is somewhat malleable (or even able to be soothed) whereas the body in any real sense is not.

At least when talking about homosexuals the desire on the part of conservatives for the brain to be malleable to make them straight seems to be rooted in the terrible and heretical idea that everyone (except perhaps the clergy) should marry.

 

[Rau]

At least when talking about homosexuals the desire on the part of conservatives for the brain to be malleable to make them straight seems to be rooted in the terrible and heretical idea that everyone (except perhaps the clergy) should marry.

I was referring more to those with a dysphoria.

In regard to homosexuality, there is no suggestion by anyone that the person’s body is in error, or unacceptable to the person.

Do you have a basis for your last statement? It seems irrelevant to me. A mad rush to resolve lack of sexual attraction to anyone might warrant that charge, but seeking to overcome the objective disordered circumstance of SSA seems to have merit quite apart from any desire to enable marriage.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Rau;13291751:

It may be difficult to know the answer to that, given the starting point acknowledges things have gone wrong. Presumably, we hold out a hope that, in some cases at least, the mind/brain is somewhat malleable (or even able to be soothed) whereas the body in any real sense is not.

I understand, but it seems to me that you are kind of avoiding the original question I asked. Why does one part of the body have precedence over another in deciding what sex or gender a person has? If someone is truly Intersex, must they pick one gender over another and say, “I’m male” or “I’m female” even though they might have characteristics of both a man and a woman? In my opinion, reality is sometimes much more complicated than many people pretend. And if the mind/brain is not in accord with the rest of the body as appears to be true in transgender people, why is the mind obviously the broken part that must be fixed?

If the mind/brain is not in accord with the rest of the body as appears to be true in transgender people, why is the mind obviously the broken part that must be fixed, not the body, you ask.

I agree with Rau, there is no easy answer to the question. In a non-intersexed transgender person, however, why is a surgical fix insisted as a correct or reasonable solution to a psychological problem? At best, it is a palliative to an unfortunate mind/brain state and an accommodation to an emotional demand, else, as the argument used by transgender activists, the already high transgender suicide rate might even climb higher. Consider that the media provides a big platform to the brokenness of Bruce Jenner and Josha Alcorn, as examples. Consider too the availability of treatment by surgeons and psychiatrists who promote and wish to mainstream SRS as long as their services are paid, (and paid handsomely they are), never mind the source of funding. This is their chosen specialization and livelihood. It is a sad state where preservation of function and health of the body, first and foremost aim and guiding ethic by professionals in the healing arts, is being set aside.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

I don’t know what causes people to be attracted to one sex or the other or to both. But I don’t think that the old theories about absent or distant fathers and smothering mothers are very convincing. I have always felt closer to my father than to my mother and still do. And I’m an only child, so no intersibling relations involved in how I turned out.

I’ve also lived in parts of the world where bisexuality seems to be more common among men than it is in the US and think that minus social and cultural influences that try to enforce a binary system, perhaps most people have the capacity to be more bisexual and to be attracted to both sexes. I also think that human beings tend to be less hardwired than most other life forms on our planet.

Like I said, who could know for sure, the etiology of the homosexual condition, Thor. *The psychogenesis is largely unknown, * states the Catholic Church. I can not offer any disagreement to that.

As for your second paragraph:This would come across as an unfavorable comment to a particular group, but bisexual behavior is a dangerous combination with unchecked sexual activity. It is how the AIDS virus started and spread to women, to the heterosexual population, with profound consequence to pregnancies that resulted, affecting the babies born.
,

 

[InSearchofGrace]

For many of them they spent substantial portions of their life trying extremely hard to accept their body as is

I don’t doubt that that is what they say. There is also the angle that their inordinate preoccupation with the body they reject takes over everything they do. No question that it can be frustrating, depressing and vexing.

She neither said she identified as male nor did she tell anyone.

An assumption on your part.
,

,

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

I was referring more to those with a dysphoria.

In regard to homosexuality, there is no suggestion by anyone that the person’s body is in error, or unacceptable to the person.

Do you have a basis for your last statement? It seems irrelevant to me. A mad rush to resolve lack of sexual attraction to anyone might warrant that charge, but seeking to overcome the objective disordered circumstance of SSA seems to have merit quite apart from any desire to enable marriage.

Why would someone who is content alone seek to change that unless external pressure tells them they should not be alone?

Changing SSA for OSA merely swaps one set of problems for another. The reason being single after 30 is so miserable is due to the idolatrous worship of the modernist concept of the nuclear family and marriage over the past century.

If the mind/brain is not in accord with the rest of the body as appears to be true in transgender people, why is the mind obviously the broken part that must be fixed, not the body, you ask.

I agree with Rau, there is no easy answer to the question. In a non-intersexed transgender person, however, why is a surgical fix insisted as a correct or reasonable solution to a psychological problem? At best, it is a palliative to an unfortunate mind/brain state and an accommodation to an emotional demand, else, as the argument used by transgender activists, the already high transgender suicide rate might even climb higher. Consider that the media provides a big platform to the brokenness of Bruce Jenner and Josha Alcorn, as examples. Consider too the availability of treatment by surgeons and psychiatrists who promote and wish to mainstream SRS as long as their services are paid, (and paid handsomely they are), never mind the source of funding. This is their chosen specialization and livelihood. It is a sad state where preservation of function and health of the body, first and foremost aim and guiding ethic by professionals in the healing arts, is being set aside.

When a treatment is the best treatment available by a large amount and is also substantially better than no treatment it should be accessible.

SRS surgeons are not even in the top 3 from data I reviewed.

Like I said, who could know for sure, the etiology of the homosexual condition, Thor. *The psychogenesis is largely unknown, * states the Catholic Church. I can not offer any disagreement to that.

As for your second paragraph:This would come across as an unfavorable comment to a particular group, but bisexual behavior is a dangerous combination with unchecked sexual activity. It is how the AIDS virus started and spread to women, to the heterosexual population, with profound consequence to pregnancies that resulted, affecting the babies born.
,

In Africa there is no sign that gay sex played any significant part in the spread of HIV/AIDS, even if gay sex would not have been a vector in the West it would have still made it over and spread rapidly within a few decades. If there were no bisexuals and the gay community experienced the spread it did in real life it would have crossed over anyway due to IV drug users or hemophiliacs.

I don’t doubt that that is what they say. There is also the angle that their inordinate preoccupation with the body they reject takes over everything they do. No question that it can be frustrating, depressing and vexing.

An assumption on your part.
,

,

I am referring to the article, from what you showed me she did not say she did either and if she had in real life it’d have been foolish not to list it in the article.

 

[Rau]

Why would someone who is content alone seek to change that unless external pressure tells them they should not be alone?

Changing SSA for OSA merely swaps one set of problems for another.

SSA is a trial for many who experience it. SSA cuts off options, and the majority are not content alone, and almost none embrace being alone from an early age - hence there is in general no good reason to be entirely relaxed about it. “External pressure” is not all that leads to marriage.

The reason being single after 30 is so miserable is due to the idolatrous worship of the modernist concept of the nuclear family and marriage over the past century.

Societal norms and structures clearly bear on these issues, I agree. But it’s a big call to say that’s the only factor.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

…

When a treatment is the best treatment available by a large amount and is also substantially better than no treatment it should be accessible.

Best treatment? That is arguable The NCBC and enough doctors in the mental and surgical fields are against SRS. The Church to which you belong has not signed on to it, much to the consternation of Catholics who have transitioned or are transitioning. Our good Pontiff embraced a transman out of sympathy, but that is not saying he has given his blessing to conflicted Catholics to go ahead and live / lead a life as a member of the opposite sex, as far as marriage and priest vocation decisions are concerned. If Rome’s recent declination of a transman requesting to be godparent to his/her niece (or nephew?) is any indication, the Church is not moving in the direction that Catholic transgender members are hoping for.

Further, to be clear, I am not suggesting no treatment at all to transgender patients.

SRS surgeons are not even in the top 3 from data I reviewed.

Sure, SRS surgeons would not place in the top 3 surgical specialties. Kinda like abortionists would not place anywhere near the number of OB GYNs. Not surprising at all, when you consider these specialties are not considered honorable or ethical by mainline surgeons and doctors specializing in women’s health. But such sub-specialists can prove lucrative in a niche market, no?

I am referring to the article, from what you showed me she did not say she did either and if she had in real life it’d have been foolish not to list it in the article.

And I am referring to no other article. The behavior and conduct of the author in growing up as she related is enough in my reading that she identified as a male. And you are reading it the other way. I may be wrong on my assumption, but you could be wrong as well.

To get to the bottom of it, I obtained what i think is the author’s contact information and if it is correct, I am asking her directly if she identified as a male as a youth and if she has expressed such to her family. If she responds, I will share her answer.

I think it is imprudent and unwise for a parent to allow or permit a transgender child to transition since most grow out of it and if transitioning is undertaken, a whole slew of ensuing experience has an imprinting influence on the brain, as neuroscience research tells us. When in doubt, the axiom is therefore not to do it, or at the least, to wait.

In your postings, you defend transitioning and medical / surgical intervention in transgender adults. On the issue of transgender children, however, let me ask you: Are you in favor of transitioning, social, medical and surgical treatment for the transgender youth ? Please explain why if you are in favor in any of the category of transitioning.
,

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

SSA is a trial for many who experience it. SSA cuts off options, and the majority are not content alone, and almost none embrace being alone from an early age - hence there is in general no good reason to be entirely relaxed about it. “External pressure” is not all that leads to marriage.

Societal norms and structures clearly bear on these issues, I agree. But it’s a big call to say that’s the only factor.

The first part of the sentence mentioned those who were not attracted to anyone so I addressed asexuals. SSA is objectively disordered insofar as the object of it is disordered, basically SSA is only objectively disordered to the degree that it is the desire for immoral objects such as gay sex, excluding those it cannot meaningfully be said to be objectively disordered because that is what the phrase “objectively disordered”; do you understand?

Being unmarried and alone while frequently treated as synonyms are not very good synonyms, if you peek in the family life section for example you’ll notice plenty of married people who feel alone, on the other hand there are plenty of unmarried people who are not alone, for example those in monastic life, other community life, robust family or friend networks. During society’s idolatry of marriage and the nuclear family it has destroyed almost every other form of community whether that is deep friendships, extended families or communal life.
Gregory of Nazianzus:

Basil and I were both in Athens. We had come, like streams of a river, from the same source in our native land, had separated from each other in pursuit of learning, and were now united again as if by plan, for God so arranged it.

I was not alone at that time in my regard for my friend, the great Basil. I knew his irreproachable conduct, and the maturity and wisdom of his conversation. I sought to persuade others, to whom he was less well known, to have the same regard for him. Many fell immediately under his spell, for they had already heard of him by reputation and hearsay.

What was the outcome? Almost alone of those who had come to Athens to study, he was exempted from the customary ceremonies of initiation, for he was held in higher honor than his status as a first-year student seemed to warrant.

Such was the prelude to our friendship, the kindling of that flame that was to bind us together. In this way we began to feel affection for each other. When, in the course of time, we acknowledged our friendship and recognized that our ambition was a life of Christian perfection, we became everything to each other: We shared the same lodging, the same table, the same desires, the same goal. Our love for each other grew daily warmer and deeper.

Our single object and ambition was virtue, and a life of hope in the blessings that are to come; we wanted to withdraw from this world before we departed from it. With this end in view we ordered our lives and all our actions. We followed the guidance of God’s law and spurred each other on to virtue. If it is not too boastful to say, we found in each other a standard and rule for discerning right from wrong.

“We Wanted to Be Christians Together,” Gregory of Nazianzen: Oration 43: In Praise of Basil the Great. Excerpted from The Liturgy of the Hours, ©1974, The International Committee on English in the Liturgy, Inc. All rights reserved.

I think their love for each other made their lives filled with abundant joy and made them better Christians as well as definitely not alone.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Best treatment? That is arguable The NCBC and enough doctors in the mental and surgical fields are against SRS. The Church to which you belong has not signed on to it, much to the consternation of Catholics who have transitioned or are transitioning. Our good Pontiff embraced a transman out of sympathy, but that is not saying he has given his blessing to conflicted Catholics to go ahead and live / lead a life as a member of the opposite sex, as far as marriage and priest vocation decisions are concerned. If Rome’s recent declination of a transman requesting to be godparent to his/her niece (or nephew?) is any indication, the Church is not moving in the direction that Catholic transgender members are hoping for.

Further, to be clear, I am not suggesting no treatment at all to transgender patients.

In terms of positive outcomes for a patient do you have better treatment options?

Sure, SRS surgeons would not place in the top 3 surgical specialties. Kinda like abortionists would not place anywhere near the number of OB GYNs. Not surprising at all, when you consider these specialties are not considered honorable or ethical by mainline surgeons and doctors specializing in women’s health. But such sub-specialists can prove lucrative in a niche market, no?

Comparing SRS surgeons to baby killers, very classy.

I was actually talking about in terms of income, foot surgeons for example make substantially more.

And I am referring to no other article. The behavior and conduct of the author in growing up as she related is enough in my reading that she identified as a male. And you are reading it the other way. I may be wrong on my assumption, but you could be wrong as well.

To get to the bottom of it, I obtained what i think is the author’s contact information and if it is correct, I am asking her directly if she identified as a male as a youth and if she has expressed such to her family. If she responds, I will share her answer.

I think it is imprudent and unwise for a parent to allow or permit a transgender child to transition since most grow out of it and if transitioning is undertaken, a whole slew of ensuing experience has an imprinting influence on the brain, as neuroscience research tells us. When in doubt, the axiom is therefore not to do it, or at the least, to wait.

In your postings, you defend transitioning and medical / surgical intervention in transgender adults. On the issue of transgender children, however, let me ask you: Are you in favor of transitioning, social, medical and surgical treatment for the transgender youth ? Please explain why if you are in favor in any of the category of transitioning.
,

Some women are very butch, but that doesn’t mean they identify as men.

It is not true to say that most transgender children grow out of it, it is true to say that there is a study where of the children who were brought to a particular clinic for gender nonconforming behaviour most of them grew up to be gay not transgender. The important caveat is that that study also included children who identified as their birth sex and the sample was specifically of those brought by parents for gender nonconforming behaviour not identified with the opposite sex.

 

[Sarcelle]

I don’t know what causes people to be attracted to one sex or the other or to both. But I don’t think that the old theories about absent or distant fathers and smothering mothers are very convincing. I have always felt closer to my father than to my mother and still do. And I’m an only child, so no intersibling relations involved in how I turned out.

I’ve also lived in parts of the world where bisexuality seems to be more common among men than it is in the US and think that minus social and cultural influences that try to enforce a binary system, perhaps most people have the capacity to be more bisexual and to be attracted to both sexes. I also think that human beings tend to be less hardwired than most other life forms on our planet.

I think you hit the nail on the head. Human sexuality is a lot more fluid than people realize. As a Catholic, I still will trust on the Church’s teaching on homosexuality. It balances compassion and respect for the dignity of the individual yet does not flinch from the teaching that marriage is based on the complementary nature of man and woman.

 

[zz912]

The reason being single after 30 is so miserable is due to the idolatrous worship of the modernist concept of the nuclear family and marriage over the past century.

Idolatrous worship of nuclear family and marriage?!?!?!

What does this even mean?

Marriage is the normal state for the vast majority of people, and the nuclear family is how best to raise children and the next generation. This has been true for tens of thousands of years. It’s not a 20th century invention.

 

[Thorolfr]

Idolatrous worship of nuclear family and marriage?!?!?!

What does this even mean?

Marriage is the normal state for the vast majority of people, and the nuclear family is how best to raise children and the next generation. This has been true for tens of thousands of years. It’s not a 20th century invention.

Actually, the nuclear family is not how it has been for thousands of years. Extended family households used to be much more common

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Idolatrous worship of nuclear family and marriage?!?!?!

What does this even mean?

Marriage is the normal state for the vast majority of people, and the nuclear family is how best to raise children and the next generation. This has been true for tens of thousands of years. It’s not a 20th century invention.

Actually in the Middle Ages it was normal to see 10-30% of people unwed.

No, the extended family is the best and traditional way to raise children and the next generation, the nuclear family which is to say a family composed solely of the parents, children and maybe pets is really only a hundred years old. We should promote the extended family for that is the best family as it provides substantial support within itself. The concept of pushing children out of the house on adulthood is a dreadful idea and promotes cohabiting along with making poor choices regarding marriage as living alone in most places is unaffordable.

 

[Midwest88]

One of the more bizarre things I’ve observed on CAF is people saying that the traditional family is being put on a pedestal, like it’s a bad thing, as if such a promotion is an irritation.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

In terms of positive outcomes for a patient do you have better treatment options?

Psychotherapy and medication, which I am sure you will argue to be ineffective treatment modalities. To realize a fantasy that have taken hold in their minds, fueled by the media and collaboration by some in the medical profession, hormones and surgery provide an easier path for transgender persons.

A number of physical and mental conditions are long term, even lifelong, that can only be managed and not eliminated completely. It is not within the standard of care for surgeons to go along with the madness of a patient with body integrity identification disorder, to cut off a healthy limb to fit the patient’s delusion, for example. It is not within SOC for a doctor to agree with an anorexic’s weight loss program. It is like accommodating the demand for brain transplantation (if said procedure is developed and perfected, as projected by some in the neuroscience field) by the persistently and clinically depressed.

Comparing SRS surgeons to baby killers, very classy.

Nothing is classy or cool about abortion and SRS.

Abortionists are reviled more than SRS surgeons, the first being involved with killing, the second with altering the given physical sex appearance of a person. The point is both specialists have deviated from what the healing profession is about.

Sex reassignment surgery is a stigmatized subspecialty. Consider that MtF genital surgical alteration involves removing healthy testicles, and cutting and inverting the penis to fashion a neovagina. The surgeon purposely creates a wound, which as nature has it tends to close in the process of healing, requiring dilation. The FtM is a harder surgical challenge, and no neo-penis has ever worked to success or satisfaction, regardless what SRS surgeons or postop patients claim. Just giving a concise description of the procedure in two sentences is also hard, so I will just skip it.

Trinidad, Colorado is sex change capital in the U.S., but ask any resident there if he or she is happy about the reputation of their town. Sure, SRS surgeon Dr. Marci Bowers and MTF transgender herself was interviewed by Oprah one time, but I do not believe that any SRS surgeon has been featured in the who’s who in the medical / surgical health profession in big city general profession and trade magazines.

I was actually talking about in terms of income, foot surgeons for example make substantially more.

Accordingly, there are less than a dozen in the U.S. who perform regular SRS, who amassed personal wealth, a few improving their craft along the way. As it works for now, they perform said surgery outside the insurance system most if not all the time.

Some women are very butch, but that doesn’t mean they identify as men.

Or, they just don’t say or talk about identification. Don’t actions speak louder than words?

It is not true to say that most transgender children grow out of it, it is true to say that there is a study where of the children who were brought to a particular clinic for gender nonconforming behaviour most of them grew up to be gay not transgender. The important caveat is that that study also included children who identified as their birth sex and the sample was specifically of those brought by parents for gender nonconforming behaviour not identified with the opposite sex.

What study is that?
,

 

[InSearchofGrace]

One of the more bizarre things I’ve observed on CAF is people saying that the traditional family is being put on a pedestal, like it’s a bad thing, as if such a promotion is an irritation.

Really. I was going to say the same thing.
,

 

[zz912]

Actually in the Middle Ages it was normal to see 10-30% of people unwed.

No, the extended family is the best and traditional way to raise children and the next generation, the nuclear family which is to say a family composed solely of the parents, children and maybe pets is really only a hundred years old. We should promote the extended family for that is the best family as it provides substantial support within itself. The concept of pushing children out of the house on adulthood is a dreadful idea and promotes cohabiting along with making poor choices regarding marriage as living alone in most places is unaffordable.

Now I’ve heard it all. The traditional nuclear family is the cause of shacking up, divorce and illegitimacy rates. The lengths some people will go to deny reality…

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

One of the more bizarre things I’ve observed on CAF is people saying that the traditional family is being put on a pedestal, like it’s a bad thing, as if such a promotion is an irritation.

The nuclear family is a modern structure that is fundamentally detrimental to religious life.

Psychotherapy and medication, which I am sure you will argue to be ineffective treatment modalities. To realize a fantasy that have taken hold in their minds, fueled by the media and collaboration by some in the medical profession, hormones and surgery provide an easier path for transgender persons.

Do you have any proof they work better if at all?

A number of physical and mental conditions are long term, even lifelong, that can only be managed and not eliminated completely. It is not within the standard of care for surgeons to go along with the madness of a patient with body integrity identification disorder, to cut off a healthy limb to fit the patient’s delusion, for example. It is not within SOC for a doctor to agree with an anorexic’s weight loss program. It is like accommodating the demand for brain transplantation (if said procedure is developed and perfected, as projected by some in the neuroscience field) by the persistently and clinically depressed.

I see you have come back to comparing GID to Anorexia Nervosa without actually attempting to counter my points.

Nothing is classy or cool about abortion and SRS.

Abortionists are reviled more than SRS surgeons, the first being involved with killing, the second with altering the given physical sex appearance of a person. The point is both specialists have deviated from what the healing profession is about.

Sex reassignment surgery is a stigmatized subspecialty. Consider that MtF genital surgical alteration involves removing healthy testicles, and cutting and inverting the penis to fashion a neovagina. The surgeon purposely creates a wound, which as nature has it tends to close in the process of healing, requiring dilation. The FtM is a harder surgical challenge, and no neo-penis has ever worked to success or satisfaction, regardless what SRS surgeons or postop patients claim. Just giving a concise description of the procedure in two sentences is also hard, so I will just skip it.

Trinidad, Colorado is sex change capital in the U.S., but ask any resident there if he or she is happy about the reputation of their town. Sure, SRS surgeon Dr. Marci Bowers and MTF transgender herself was interviewed by Oprah one time, but I do not believe that any SRS surgeon has been featured in the who’s who in the medical / surgical health profession in big city general profession and trade magazines.

Okay

Accordingly, there are less than a dozen in the U.S. who perform regular SRS, who amassed personal wealth, a few improving their craft along the way. As it works for now, they perform said surgery outside the insurance system most if not all the time.

If you are a surgeon, are not a spendthrift and are in the business for any significant amount of time you will accumulate quite a bit of personal wealth.

Or, they just don’t say or talk about identification. Don’t actions speak louder than words?

A crucial part of identity is identification.

What study is that?
,

The one where your claim that most transgender children grow out of it is distorted from. The newer similar studies all get their numbers from the number they lost track of for example in one Canadian study 55% continued to experience gender dysphoria and the 45% they lost track of was claimed as “desistance” when it very well could mean things like they moved, family broke up and it wasn’t a priority, they killed themselves, etc.

huffingtonpost.com/brynn-tannehill/myths-about-transition-regrets_b_6160626.html

Now I’ve heard it all. The traditional nuclear family is the cause of shacking up, divorce and illegitimacy rates. The lengths some people will go to deny reality…

That is why the extended family is a superior and more natural model for family life in addition to being more traditional.

I am sorry if I am too medieval for your modernist values.