Transgender In Love

[CopticChristian]

Have you ever considered that there are more types of love than the one that is normally accompanied by a desire to copulate?

Dakota,

Always and when read in the context of

Despite these discouragements, we want to stay together as a chaste couple. I think that we have the willpower and the strength to do it, and by God’s grace I am sure that we can. It is a rare and powerful love that I do not think is possible for many people, to the point that we would both give up the sacred act.

The possibility of considering a not sacred act sacred, it causes reflection.

The issue is not love that concerns me but damage to mind/body/spirit…as this is CAF and I am not reponding to defend love rather to discuss this posting relevant to truth and the faith…

 

[CopticChristian]

You misunderstand me entirely. It is a sacrifice to choose to give up the prospect of sex when the possibility exists of pursuing a full marital relationship with another person with whom one IS physically compatible, and with whom it thereby wouldn’t be a sin. There is absolutely no sacrifice on my part, of course, as I am sexually disinterested and destined for a life of chastity anyway.

If I am not being coherent enough, do say so and I will clarify, if it pleases you. I feel like I am not getting myself across.

VeryWell,

I am less concerned about your love than accepting a diagnosis based on Wish, Desire, Preference. I would get a second opinion and speak to some people that don’t follow the guidelines of the American Psychiatric Association…

You should question these so called experts that have formulated opinions on a sexual behavior such as homosexuality that The APA, AMA, and all other societies adopted, by vote as you know and consider that when it comes to other behaviors they can’t agree and other physicians disagree, such as addiction…

The American Society of Addiction Medicine (ASAM) just released this new definition of addiction after a four-year process involving more than 80 experts.
Addiction is a chronic brain disorder and not simply a behavior problem involving alcohol, drugs, gambling or sex, experts contend in a new definition of addiction, one that is not solely related to problematic substance abuse.

jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=183885

To the Editor: The Special Communication on treating drug abuse and addiction in the criminal justice system by Dr Chandler and colleagues1 appeared to use inconsistent nomenclature. On page 183, the authors wrote that addiction is a “brain disorder.” Yet on page 189, they wrote that addiction is a “chronic brain disease.” I would appreciate clarification of this apparent discrepancy, with bibliographic documentation for these diagnoses if possible.

These experts can’t make up their mind as to whether addiction is a disease or disorder.

The APA has gone back and forth between use of the terms “addiction” and “dependence” to describe alcohol and other drug problems, noted researcher Stanton Peele, Ph.D. “Every book I’ve written has the word “addiction” in the title, so I’m glad the term will now be recognized,” wrote Peele in the Huffington Post on Feb. 11. “But the change back may make us wonder whether we will have to reconsider every twenty years or so whether it is more beneficial or harmful to use a word loaded with cultural meanings (“addiction”), or a more neutral term (“dependence”).”

The ever changing opinion on addiction, dependence, because they know best?

In fact, “dependence” made it into the DSM-IV by just a single vote, O’Brien noted in a May 2006 editorial in the American Journal of Psychiatry co-authored by Nora Volkow, M.D., director of the National Institute on Drug Abuse, and T-K Li, M.D., then-head of the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism.

and we all know how the DSM accomodates sexual behavior, by science, no by votes…

Dr. Lynn Appleton says that “Despite all public pronouncements about alcoholism as a disease, medical practice rejects treating it as such. Not only does alcoholism not follow the model of a ‘disease,’ it is not amenable to standard medical treatment.” She says that “Medical doctors’ rejection of the disease theory of alcoholism has a strong basis in the biomedical model underpinning most of their training” and that “medical research on alcoholism does not support the disease model.” (Lynn M. Appleton. Rethinking medicalization. Alcoholism and anomalies. Chapter in editor Joel Best’s Images of Issues. Typifying Contemporary Social Problems. NY: Aldine De Gruyter, 1995, page 65 and page 69. 2nd edition

These experts can’t agree if addiction is a disease, disorder and then when you ask physicians in the field if they agree with these experts they don’t.

So if you want to buy into the experts suggestion that you have GID, then go ahead because there are experts that do not agree and you may want to speak with them, unless you want to follow the inane logic of these so called behavior experts…

There are Psychiatrists and Psychologists that don’t agree with the DSM system of sexual behavior classification and you can start here…

catholiceducation.org/art…ty/ho0045.html

catholiceducation.org/article…ty/ho0039.html

unless you want to believe that these experts that can’t figure out addiction, voting this way and that, not by science, have figured out for sure that you have GID…perhaps you may want to look into a second opinion…

 

[DexUK]

I see no benefit in trying to confuse a person about the causes of their GID.

The fact is, it exists in that person.

The good, honest, loving, pastoral response is to help that person live a good, honest, loving, moral life that meets the necessities of being in good standing with the Church while doing so within the boundaries of their understanding of their condition.

It serves no purpose to try and ‘argue’ a person out of their sexuality or transgenderism. If anything it will drive them away from the loving embrace of the Lord that our Church would want for them (if only some of the people within it would stop being so judgemental about all sorts of things).

 

[VeryWell]

CopticChristian,

There is already a thread on transgenderism in general here in the Moral Theology forum and, as I have observed in my perusal of the posts there, the discussion you are attempting here is already going on, or at least has already occurred. While I appreciate your effort and what I hope is a desire to help me rather than work out a personal vendetta against what you see as a trespass against medical truth, this thread is not intended to be an argument about my condition, whether you believe it to be a real one or not, or, indeed, whether I believe it to be a real one or not
.
I am simply trying to get advice relevant to something that I, unfortunately, do not think most people are capable of comprehending, that being a chaste romantic love between two individuals that are technically the same physical sex. My condition is a factor, yes, but it is only a detail–and perhaps it is one that I ought to have left out, because it seems to be the foundation of a number of hang ups for no small array of people.

In addition, I do not appreciate the repeated attempts at trying to cast me in the light of someone who secretly has some sort of overpowering sexual appetite that is subtly making its way into my words. I absolutely do not, no matter what your preconceptions about people who suffer my condition are, and if my wording is awkward it is because I am an awkward person dealing with a very awkward subject in the infinitely more awkward medium of the internet.

Finally, when I use the term ‘sacred act’, I am NOT speaking of it in regards to intimacy between me and my love. That is evidently not a sacred act, it is the opposite of one, and I am well aware of that. I am speaking of it in regards to intimacy between them and someone *else of the truly opposite gender. In order to pursue a romance with me they are forgoing pursuing a proper *romance with someone who is whole and therefore are giving up their natural right to procreation, and they are doing that for me. That IS a sacrifice and it is one made out of love. Is that really so difficult to understand or am I just being terribly unclear?

In any case, I do believe that I have more or less gotten the answers I desired to find, both from the posts here and from carefully inspecting others about SSA and similar. Thank you all for your generosity and your thoughts. It has made me think quite a lot, and that is what I wanted to be made to do.

 

[CopticChristian]

The fact is, it exists in that person.

 

[CopticChristian]

CopticChristian,

There is already a thread on transgenderism in general here in the Moral Theology forum and, as I have observed in my perusal of the posts there, the discussion you are attempting here is already going on, or at least has already occurred. While I appreciate your effort and what I hope is a desire to help me rather than work out a personal vendetta against what you see as a trespass against medical truth, this thread is not intended to be an argument about my condition, whether you believe it to be a real one or not, or, indeed, whether I believe it to be a real one or not
.
I am simply trying to get advice relevant to something that I, unfortunately, do not think most people are capable of comprehending, that being a chaste romantic love between two individuals that are technically the same physical sex. My condition is a factor, yes, but it is only a detail–and perhaps it is one that I ought to have left out, because it seems to be the foundation of a number of hang ups for no small array of people.

In addition, I do not appreciate the repeated attempts at trying to cast me in the light of someone who secretly has some sort of overpowering sexual appetite that is subtly making its way into my words. I absolutely do not, no matter what your preconceptions about people who suffer my condition are, and if my wording is awkward it is because I am an awkward person dealing with a very awkward subject in the infinitely more awkward medium of the internet.

Finally, when I use the term ‘sacred act’, I am NOT speaking of it in regards to intimacy between me and my love. That is evidently not a sacred act, it is the opposite of one, and I am well aware of that. I am speaking of it in regards to intimacy between them and someone *else of the truly opposite gender. In order to pursue a romance with me they are forgoing pursuing a proper *romance with someone who is whole and therefore are giving up their natural right to procreation, and they are doing that for me.
In any case, I do believe that I have more or less gotten the answers I desired to find, both from the posts here and from carefully inspecting others about SSA and similar. Thank you all for your generosity and your thoughts. It has made me think quite a lot, and that is what I wanted to be made to do.

VeryWell,

In addition, I do not appreciate the repeated attempts at trying to cast me in the light of someone who secretly has some sort of overpowering sexual appetite that is subtly making its way into my words. I absolutely do not, no matter what your preconceptions about people who suffer my condition are, and if my wording is awkward it is because I am an awkward person dealing with a very awkward subject in the infinitely more awkward medium of the internet.

I provided one attempt, not repeated attempts. You came here looking for acceptance of what you believe and think…

This is the CAF to discuss and defend the Faith. You did not get what you want from me and I do not believe that a Dear Abby approach to your issues is helpful.

That IS a sacrifice and it is one made out of love. Is that really so difficult to understand or am I just being terribly unclear?

You made it perfectly clear. Life in Christ requires sacrifice and what I see is that you are willing to sacrifice some but not all of your life for the love of God…if you plan to be chaste, be chaste…no discussion needed.

I have no vendetta. I am appreciative of your ability to think and sometimes you don’t always get what you want but you always get what you need.

Heterosexual, Homosexual, Transgender…are all called to love God more than self, are all called to Sacrifice…some more than others…John of The Cross loved God so much that it was His life pursuit…we should all consider his walk and adopt his attitude and detach from the world as he did, including our created sexuality and what it causes us to think, believe, Wish, Desire, Prefer…and want more than God…

 

[VeryWell]

I provided one attempt, not repeated attempts. You came here looking for acceptance of what you believe and think…

This is the CAF to discuss and defend the Faith. You did not get what you want from me and I do not believe that a Dear Abby approach to your issues is helpful.

If that was what I wanted, sir, I would not be discussing this on the Catholic.com forums, I would have gone to one of the many others that actually specifically cater to people like me who are not interested in pursuing truth and only desire blind acceptance. I do not want blind acceptance and I do not appreciate the implication. I DO want the people giving me advice to fully understand the circumstances; that is not the same as attempting to provide justification.

To return this thread to something resembling its original purpose:

Life in Christ requires sacrifice and what I see is that you are willing to sacrifice some but not all of your life for the love of God…if you plan to be chaste, be chaste…no discussion needed.

When you say this, you appear to suggest that love is inseparable from sexual intimacy and that in order to be chaste I must give up both. Could you please elaborate? This is exactly the kind of thing I was hoping to find information on, actually.

 

[DexUK]

I have no vendetta. I am appreciative of your ability to think and sometimes you don’t always get what you want but you always get what you need.

Are you really so presumptuous that you know what someone else needs?

Your (name removed by moderator)ut on this thread, as with others, is deeply uncharitable. You even accuse me of propagandising when I write that someone with GID is suffering from GID! For goodness’ sake, a person with a thing is a person with a thing… Quod erat demonstrandum. It doesn’t matter how it is that the condition came to be. It is. Stop looking for fights where none need to exist.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

Dakota,

Always and when read in the context of

The possibility of considering a not sacred act sacred, it causes reflection.

The issue is not love that concerns me but damage to mind/body/spirit…as this is CAF and I am not reponding to defend love rather to discuss this posting relevant to truth and the faith…

Have you ever considered a need to be charitable and help a person be a better Catholic can sometimes be more important than scoring non-theological ideological points?

snip
I am good, honest and provide the pastoral response that the history of gender as it regards the DSM, the American Psychiatric Association is politicized and to live a good, honest moral life to be in good standing in the Church recognize that the Church teaches in the section Life in Christ virtues, habits and those habits discount Dear Abby responses to same sex love interests…The Catechism is divided in 4 parts…

Profession of Faith
Sacramental Life
Life in Christ
Prayer…

VeryWell says this…

I would expect that a faithful Catholic should recognize that Catechesis is always important in particular Life in Christ that excludes any love interests in this world when it is same sex oriented.
snip

Have you ever considered that there is more than one type of love?

 

[CopticChristian]

If that was what I wanted, sir, I would not be discussing this on the Catholic.com forums, I would have gone to one of the many others that actually specifically cater to people like me who are not interested in pursuing truth and only desire blind acceptance. I do not want blind acceptance and I do not appreciate the implication.

To return this thread to something resembling its original purpose:

.

VeryWell,

I DO want the people giving me advice to fully understand the circumstances; that is not the same as attempting to provide justification.

I gave you my perspective and food for thought. I understand your circumstance.

When you say this, you appear to suggest that love is inseparable from sexual intimacy and that in order to be chaste I must give up both. Could you please elaborate? This is exactly the kind of thing I was hoping to find information on, actually

Read the Catechism “Life In Christ” section and then understand the following.

17As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 18And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. 19“You know the commandments, ‘DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, Do not defraud, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.’” 20And he said to Him, “Teacher, I have kept all these things from my youth up.” 21Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, “One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

Give up all that you have and follow me. Possessions. What do you have that was not given to you. Your life, your body, your mind, your thoughts, your Wishes, your Desires, your preferences are all gifts…on your own you can do nothing…if selling possesions and detachment from the world is what you need to do to follow Christ because they bind you to the world…then detachement from your body, your mind, your Wishes, your Desires, etc…mean just as much…and if you don’t buy that then look at this…

Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. 25“He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal. 26“If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.

You say you are a Faithful Catholic, Ok, and to accept one part of the teaching on sexuality then accept all that it teaches and recognize that you must hate your life, because that too will detract you from knowing, loving serving God. If you are attached to your body, your Wishes, your Desires, your Preferences and you find that some love interest causes you to reflect on chastity and the hope, the possibilities…

then give up all that you have, hate it and gain everything…

Have you by chance read the entirety of the Catechism recently?

 

[CopticChristian]

Are you really so presumptuous that you know what someone else needs?

Your (name removed by moderator)ut on this thread, as with others, is deeply uncharitable. You even accuse me of propagandising when I write that someone with GID is suffering from GID! For goodness’ sake, a person with a thing is a person with a thing… Quod erat demonstrandum. It doesn’t matter how it is that the condition came to be. It is. Stop looking for fights where none need to exist.

Dex,

Please you have made it clear that you accept and believe the American Psychiatric Association and all other society propaganda that

Sexuality is fixed…
Counseling for any sexuality is acceptance

You offer to debate these points, however when challenged to provide proof other than appeals to authority you have recently become mute…

Is it charitable to routinely offer counter opinions to Church teaching? I ask…because…on another thread concerning Church teaching, it is uncharitable for you to offer this propaganda for consideration…**What is Church Teaching on Transgender people…**your point of view is underming the Faithful for reconsideration of Church teaching…

But what if surgery for transgender people was not considered as ‘mutilation’? What if it was considered positive? What if, instead of forcing them to live in a world where their outward appearance belied their inner desires and nature we allowed them to effect that change and live happily ever after? Does that harm society? Does it risk negative consequences to me?

What is love, what is Charity…it is willing God to another and that is in thought deed and action.

If willing God to another is to adhere to Church teaching and not offer secular propanda in opposition to Church teaching then who is more Charitable…those that offer opposition to Church teaching or those that accept Church teaching and in doing so oppose the secular propaganda?

 

[CopticChristian]

Have you ever considered a need to be charitable and help a person be a better Catholic can sometimes be more important than scoring non-theological ideological points?

Have you ever considered that there is more than one type of love?

Dakota,

I discussed the notion of Charity as I see in in a previous posting and I stand by that.

What love is the most important…love of God or love of neighbor…if you were able to find yourself able to complete yourself in all ways and satisfy both…which do you focus on first…love of God or love of neighbor…?

To love neighbor you must love God…and to love God you accept revealed truths that include loving neighbor so as not to detract from the love of God and if in doing so you must distance yourself from your created being in that loving so as not to jeoparadize that love of God…then giving up any notion of harmony in living with someone in a chaste life that may jeoparadize love of God is truly loving God more than self.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

Dakota,

I discussed the notion of Charity as I see in in a previous posting and I stand by that.

What love is the most important…love of God or love of neighbor…if you were able to find yourself able to complete yourself in all ways and satisfy both…which do you focus on first…love of God or love of neighbor…?

To love neighbor you must love God…and to love God you accept revealed truths that include loving neighbor so as not to detract from the love of God and if in doing so you must distance yourself from your created being in that loving so as not to jeoparadize that love of God…then giving up any notion of harmony in living with someone in a chaste life that may jeoparadize love of God is truly loving God more than self.

Coptic Christian:

I would expect that a faithful Catholic should recognize that Catechesis is always important in particular Life in Christ that excludes any love interests in this world when it is same sex oriented.

Life in Christ does not preclude chaste love of another of the same sex, cf David and Jonathan or Newman and Ambrose St. John. Love between men and love between women used to be common until society started sexualising everything.

 

[DexUK]

Dex,

Please you have made it clear that you accept and believe the American Psychiatric Association and all other society propaganda that

Sexuality is fixed…
Counseling for any sexuality is acceptance

You offer to debate these points, however when challenged to provide proof other than appeals to authority you have recently become mute…

Is it charitable to routinely offer counter opinions to Church teaching? I ask…because…on another thread concerning Church teaching, it is uncharitable for you to offer this propaganda for consideration…**What is Church Teaching on Transgender people…**your point of view is underming the Faithful for reconsideration of Church teaching…

What is love, what is Charity…it is willing God to another and that is in thought deed and action.

If willing God to another is to adhere to Church teaching and not offer secular propanda in opposition to Church teaching then who is more Charitable…those that offer opposition to Church teaching or those that accept Church teaching and in doing so oppose the secular propaganda?

You accuse me of becoming ‘mute’? I answer all your points. You just refuse to accept them as answers because you don’t like the conclusions I draw. If you don’t like that, then that’s not my issue. I don’t answer to you. I answer to my faith, to the Church and to God.

You refer to the thread about church teaching on transgender. The very first reply to it is mine, and I recount what the Church teaches about it! I don’t stray an inch from Church teaching on the matter!

Where you and I clearly disagree is on the pastoral application of that teaching. You posit ‘scientific’ opinions as absolutes and provide no practical answers relevant to real life situations. My position is that my pastoral concern is to the person I’m dealing with. It matters not what the cause is. What matters is the person in front of me. I refuse to believe what you believe. I refuse because I believe it’s contrary to everything I have ever leaned about the love for and of Christ.

Yes, ultimately you and I disagree because we have fundamentally different ideas about how we express Christianity in the world. Yours is unbending, unwavering and judgemental regardless of the needs of a person. Mine is flexible, pastoral, and tries to meet the needs of the person while remaining always directed to God.

Which is best? Well, I guess we’ll find out when and if we ever meet our Maker. Until then, I dare say we’re just going to go round and round in these circles until such time as one or other of us gets bored or finds something more fulfilling to do.

 

[CopticChristian]

You accuse me of becoming ‘mute’? I answer all your points. You just refuse to accept them as answers because you don’t like the conclusions I draw. If you don’t like that, then that’s not my issue. I don’t answer to you. I answer to my faith, to the Church and to God.

You refer to the thread about church teaching on transgender. The very first reply to it is mine, and I recount what the Church teaches about it! I don’t stray an inch from Church teaching on the matter!

Where you and I clearly disagree is on the pastoral application of that teaching. My position is that my pastoral concern is to the person I’m dealing with. It matters not what the cause is. What matters is the person in front of me. I refuse to believe what you believe. I refuse because I believe it’s contrary to everything I have ever leaned about the love for and of Christ.

Yes, ultimately you and I disagree because we have fundamentally different ideas about how we express Christianity in the world. Yours is unbending, unwavering and judgemental regardless of the needs of a person. Mine is flexible, pastoral, and tries to meet the needs of the person while remaining always directed to God.

Which is best? Well, I guess we’ll find out when and if we ever meet our Maker. Until then, I dare say we’re just going to go round and round in these circles until such time as one or other of us gets bored or finds something more fulfilling to do.

Dex,

You posit ‘scientific’ opinions as absolutes and provide no practical answers relevant to real life situations.

Real life situations require that someone be told that the secular world and their opinions have lost their minds, and that includes the American Psychiatric Association…Real life situations require that people disregard these Society propositions and seek answers elsewhere…

 

[CopticChristian]

Life in Christ does not preclude chaste love of another of the same sex, cf David and Jonathan or Newman and Ambrose St. John. Love between men and love between women used to be common until society started sexualising everything.

Dakota,

Those people were living in Celibate life situations. To honor these models advice for VeryWell is to become a nun/priest and then find chaste love…

 

[VeryWell]

Dakota,

Those people were living in Celibate life situations. To honor these models advice for VeryWell is to become a nun/priest and then find chaste love…

My situation is celibate. Why is joining a holy order a requirement?

 

[njstevep]

(This is a question that’s been eating me alive to the point that I’ve just crawled out of bed at 2 AM to register on my favorite forum in the world and ask it. Do forgive if I am less than eloquent!)

I am a faithful Catholic and have been for my entire life. I have never strayed from its teachings and I vigorously defend its doctrines, even–and especially–those concerning the Church’s stance on homosexuality. If I were to classify myself, I would say that I am very traditional. However, I also suffer from Gender Identity Disorder. (To clarify, I have not begun hormones or undergone surgery, but I do crossdress, which, as I have gathered from scouring other threads, is not a sin, and thank goodness, because it is a small and much needed respite from my turmoil.)

Of course, knowing that I will never truly be the sex I wasn’t born as, I contentedly resigned myself to a chaste and single life since a very young age, incapable of either marriage or of comfortably joining a holy order. I have never fornicated and I am stubborn enough to think that I never will–I hope I never will, anyway, by grace.

However, I have since found someone that I have fallen irrevocably in love with. They are the same sex as my birth sex. They know that I have GID, and, while straight, they love me anyway. I love them, too, and our attraction is mutual, chaste and not lustful in the slightest. Of course, knowing how things go, we have discussed the issue of the marital act, and on account of my religion (they are not Catholic) and my condition we have come to the understanding that it can never happen between us. Naturally, I am acutely aware that a marriage will never be recognized by the Church.

Despite these discouragements, we want to stay together as a chaste couple. I think that we have the willpower and the strength to do it, and by God’s grace I am sure that we can. It is a rare and powerful love that I do not think is possible for many people, to the point that we would both give up the sacred act. It is a great sacrifice on their part, especially, made more potent on account of the fact that they are the sort of person that could have anyone they desired, really–certainly someone who was not like me, someone who was whole enough to be a proper other half.

I suppose that this must seem a bit convoluted, but my primary question is this: would we be committing a sin anyway for staying together in this way, or does sin only come into play when sexual intimacy does?

May God bless you and your partner! Many people on these boards don’t understand the complexity of transgenderism. I am a cis-gender male. I am in a relationship with a transgender male. Since the church does not recognize my partner’s transition, I am in essence, in the church’s eyes, in a heterosexual dating relationship. I have posted on these boards before asking if the Church would marry us, and I’ve gotten a variety of answers. It works in our favor that we are capable of procreation.

Anyway, best of luck to you and may God bless you!

 

[RoseMary131]

I am a cis-gender male. I am in a relationship with a transgender male. Since the church does not recognize my partner’s transition, I am in essence, in the church’s eyes, in a heterosexual dating relationship.

Hello njstevep,

What are cis-gender male and transgender male? Since you mention you are in a heterosexual dating relationship - one of you is female and one is male, but who is each one.

Peace.

 

[John_of_Woking]

It’s one thing to bear this cross, that is painful enough.

But if this organization tries to tell him/her that he/she can “change,” oh Lord have mercy. Life is painful enough.

Edit: it looks like they do not consider themselves an “ex-gay” organization, but then their testimonials sound like it. So make up your own mind, I suppose.

Quoting from Courage:

Dear Courage, could you possibly be any less sympathetic? Could you do a better job of making these people feel like crud?

Probably not.

Some people change! Please Get over it