Transitional Fossils and the Theory of Evolution in relation to Genesis Accounts

[Buzzard3]

If the alternative offered is ID and/or creationism, then Bill was probably right

In the Catholic context, God is an intelligent designer.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

If the alternative offered is ID and/or creationism, then Bill was probably right

In the Catholic context, God is an intelligent designer.

Naturally. But for any scientifically literate Catholics, or those who are scientifically literate who are thinking of becoming Catholic, these threads, including your contributions, risk turning them away from the church.

If someone was of a mind to damage the Catholic church in some way then I couldn’t think of an easier method than signing up to a forum and spending a few minutes each day denigrating science, ridiculing those who understand scientific concepts and using demeaning schoolyard terms such as ‘evos’ and ‘bug-men’.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Buzzard3:

“Evolution is the greatest engine of atheism ever invented” – William Provine.

If the alternative offered is ID and/or creationism, then Bill was probably right.

How did the universe come into existence by natural causes, and as you have said, we don’t know.
How did the first life happen by natural causes, we don’t know.
How did evolution happen purely by natural causes; and again, we don’t know.

Sure there are plenty of arguments, but we only argue about things we don’t know.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

bug-man

Bugs never turned to humans. Either you don’t understand what you claim to refute or you’re being obtuse on purpose.

Darwinism convinces many people that life on earth didn’t require a Creator, which can result in atheism.

A lot of things do that, and not all of them are from the Devil. Why evolution specifically? Certainly hasn’t proved problematic for me or many others like me.

In the Catholic context, God is an intelligent designer.

Designer of laws, not of creatures. God didn’t make every species by hand, they evolved as a consequence of the laws God made to govern our universe.

How did the universe come into existence by natural causes, and as you have said, we don’t know.

Well, we kinda do. Where everything came from, we can’t know. We can basically know everything from the Big Bang onwards, though.

How did the first life happen by natural causes, we don’t know.

Some scientists theorize, but it’s hard to gather evidence for this. That’s why I generally reject it.

How did evolution happen purely by natural causes; and again, we don’t know.

No, we do know this one. Mutations, and their passing on via natural selection.

 

[rossum]

God didn’t have to use evolution to create anything.

But, being omnipotent, God could have used evolution as easily as any other method.

If we assume that God is not a liar, then the evidence of the world that God made is sufficient to tell us that of the multitude of methods God could possibly have used, the method He chose was evolution.

Of course, if you think that Loki/Trickster created the world, then the evidence of the world cannot be considered reliable.

 

[rossum]

How did the universe come into existence by natural causes, and as you have said, we don’t know.

There is a slim chance we might know in future, but that is a very slim chance.

How did the first life happen by natural causes, we don’t know.

We know part of it and are learning more. You are in danger of putting your God into a gap, which is dangerous for your God. Science works to close gaps, making the gods in those gaps smaller. Thor and Zeus used to be in the gap called: “What causes thunder?” That gap was closed by science, and look where those gods are now. Do you want your God to be reduced to a comic-book hero?

How did evolution happen purely by natural causes; and again, we don’t know.

We do know. Your source for this was misinforming you. We understand how evolution happens: imperfect reproduction is a situation of resource constraints. We understand it enough to write successful genetic algorithms for computers.

 

[buffalo]

No, we do know this one. Mutations, and their passing on via natural selection.

Maybe you have not been kept up to date.

 

[buffalo]

We know part of it and are learning more. You are in danger of putting your God into a gap, which is dangerous for your God.

Nonsense. There will always be a gap.

 

[rossum]

There will always be a gap.

So, now you are a prophet? Or are you just guessing? A guess carries even less scientific weight than an interpretation of a 2000 year old religious text.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

There is a slim chance we might know in future, but that is a very slim chance.

So we don’t know how the universe came to be by natural causes. I can’t see that happening in my lifetime either.

We know part of it and are learning more.

The part we know is not convincing, so we don’t know how the universe came to be by natural causes.

. We understand how evolution happens: imperfect reproduction is a situation of resource constraints. We understand it enough to write successful genetic algorithms for computers.

You say we understand how evolution happens by natural causes because we can write genetic algorithms for computers. It takes intelligent design to make a computer, it takes intelligent design to programme genetic algorithms for computers.

Take away intelligent design and you have no genetic algorithms for computers.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

The universe is governed by simple mathematical laws. Evolution isn’t some extremely complicated mechanic, it’s a consequence of how life is structured and how physical laws interact with biological creatures.

 

[whatistrue]

Take away intelligent design and you have no genetic algorithms for computers.

False equivalence. We understand it enough to create something that behaves the same way, but that in no way requires the original process to have been engineered. Of course, I believe that God did set up the process, but that cannot be proven or disproven by science.

 

[rossum]

The part we know is not convincing, so we don’t know how the universe came to be by natural causes.

I suspect you meant to type “life”, rather than “the universe” there.

Can you show us any amino acids created by a deity? Can you show us any life that does not use amino acids? I can show you amino acids made by natural processes. We have even detected amino acids in meteorites arriving on earth from space. You are betting against the evidence already available.

You say we understand how evolution happens by natural causes because we can write genetic algorithms for computers. It takes intelligent design to make a computer, it takes intelligent design to programme genetic algorithms for computers.

We can program computers to predict the tides. Are you saying tides are not caused by the moon? We can program computers to predict the paths of the planets. Are you saying that the paths of the planets through space are not caused by gravity?

The ability to model something does not mean that the original was designed. A sculptor can carve a statue of Jesus. Does that imply the Jesus was designed?

Here is an artist’s painting of the Trinity:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Does that painting mean that the Trinity was designed?

 

[buffalo]

If there are no gaps in knowledge between us and God, then we are all knowing and are God.

 

[Techno2000]

Bugs never turned to humans. Either you don’t understand what you claim to refute or you’re being obtuse on purpose.

You know what he means.

“If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ exists which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.”-Darwin

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

You know what he means.

Of course I do. A strawman is still a strawman, even if I see through it. Basic respect for our position would be nice.

“If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ exists which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.”-Darwin

I mean, Darwinism isn’t the basis of evolutionary theory anymore. Don’t know why this is relevant.

Oh, and you never answered:

Do you think the age of Earth is artificially inflated to provide credibility to evolution?

 

[rossum]

“If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ exists which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.”-Darwin

Professor Behe made an attempt to show such examples with his concept of Irreducible Complexity. He managed to modify the theory of evolution slightly with his hypothesis, but he did not succeed in showing any unevolvable traits.

An IC system cannot evolve by the serial direct route. However, IC systems can evolve by other routes, such as parallel direct or scaffolding.

 

[Anrakyr]

Thor and Zeus used to be in the gap called: “What causes thunder?” That gap was closed by science, and look where those gods are now. Do you want your God to be reduced to a comic-book hero?

Oi, shots fired.

 

[Buzzard3]

Naturally. But for any scientifically literate Catholics, or those who are scientifically literate who are thinking of becoming Catholic, these threads, including your contributions, risk turning them away from the church. If someone was of a mind to damage the Catholic church in some way then I couldn’t think of an easier method than signing up to a forum and spending a few minutes each day denigrating science, ridiculing those who understand scientific concepts and using demeaning schoolyard terms such as ‘evos’ and ‘bug-men’.

You have a keen sense of humour, I must say. So you’re an atheist who is concerned that some folks might be turned off the Catholic Church? I’ve never heard that joke before - so original!

Btw, I’m not a YEC, if that’s what you’re thinking - I accept that life on earth could have begun millions-billions of years ago.
And I don’t denigrate science, although I have been known to denigrate the Darwinian explanation for the history of life on earth, a theory which is contradicted by the fossil record.

 

[Buzzard3]

Bugs never turned to humans. Either you don’t understand what you claim to refute or you’re being obtuse on purpose

Yeah, yeah - - humans allegedly evolved from a hominid and the first life-form was a prokaryote. You’re being pedantic - this isn’t a science forum.

A lot of things do that, and not all of them are from the Devil. Why evolution specifically? Certainly hasn’t proved problematic for me or many others like me.

… so says someone who thinks an “ensouled” human breeding with a “non-ensouled” human is a reasonable hypothesis!

You’ve never noticed that neo-Darwinism does a very good impression of a cult and you think there is no possible link between that cult and demonic influence?

Designer of laws, not of creatures. God didn’t make every species by hand, they evolved as a consequence of the laws God made to govern our universe.

No one can know - or ever know - how God brought creatures into existence. You need to get off your science high-horse and realise that creation is a miracle from start to finish, the process of which can’t be explained by puny humans.

Are you saying God is not an intelligent designer?

No, we do know this one. Mutations, and their passing on via natural selection.

We don’t “know” how a bird (allegedly) evolved from a reptile, for example - a mere theory is not knowledge. We don’t even know that a bird did in fact evolve from a reptile, so your claim to “know” how it happened is laughable.

Neo-Darwinism can’t explain how a double-circulation heart could have evolved from a single-circulation heart, for example.

Of course I do. A strawman is still a strawman, even if I see through it. Basic respect for our position would be nice.

So sorry to offend your delicate scientific sensiibilties, your Highness!

A “strawman”? Hw did you work that out?