Transitional Fossils and the Theory of Evolution in relation to Genesis Accounts

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I never said “it all started with ‘kinds’ 6000 years ago”. Let me try and resolve your obvious confusion: The Bible concerns itself with the relationship between God and man. Genesis is a book of history, but the millions-billions(?) of years of pre-Adamic history is presented in figurative (non-literal) language, coz it is not important. However, when Adam appears in the narrative, Genesis gets much more literal, coz this is the important stuff.

The text suggests that Adam and Eve and their descendants were vegetarians (Gen 1)… until after the Flood, when God gives Noah et al permission to eat meat (Gen 9). This change of diet may have been necessary due to the gradual degeneration of bodily functions brought on by the effects of Original Sin – it got to the stage where humans could no longer survive on a vegetarian diet. The appendix may have played a role in enabling humans to survive on their original vegetarian diet – after the Fall it may have suffered a gradual loss in its original function, thus necessitating the introduction of meat into the human diet (which reminds of when the Dali Lama said he had to start eating meat for the sake of his health).

As for the “kinds” mentioned in Genesis, I’ve never said a thing about it or offered an interpretation. But since you’ve brought it up, “kinds” may be an apt description of what S.J. Gould observed in the fossil record:
”Most species exhibit no directional change during their tenure on earth. They appear in the fossil record looking pretty much the same as when they disappear; morphological change is usually limited and directionless.” (The Panda’s Thumb, p.182);

“Every paleontologist knows that most species don’t change. That’s bothersome … brings great distress … They may get a little bigger or bumpier, but they remain the same species, and that’s not due to imperfection and gaps but stasis. And yet this remarkable stasis has generally been ignored as no data. If they don’t change, it’s not evolution, so you don’t talk about it.” (S.J. Gould, Lecture at Hobart and William College, 14/2/1980)
 
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It warms the cockles of my heart to know I’m biologically related by common descent to fungi.
As I said above, if you are going to be talking about numbers then you need to do the calculations.
“Given a simple little rodent-like animal as our starting point, what does it mean to form a boat in less than ten million years, or a whale in little more time … If an average chronospecies lasts only a million years … then we have only ten or fifteen chronospecies to align, end-to-end, to form a continuous lineage connecting our primitive little mammal with a bat or a whale. This is clearly preposterous … A chain of ten or fifteen of these might move us from one small rodent-like form to a slightly different one … but not to a bat or a whale!” (Steven Stanley, The New Evolutionary Timetable , 1981, p.93-94)
 
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We are searching for truth, not arguments.
Good point. The best scientific argument/explanation for the history of life on earth may be a million miles from the truth - and I strongly suspect it is.
If scientists attempted to explain how Jesus turned water into wine, for example, their best argument/explanation would be laughably off the mark.
 
So when do you think the flood took place?
I don’t know.
The one where every animal on the planet was killed. Apart from some that Noah saved. And from whom all animals must therefore be descended.
The Flood may not have been global, although it may have killed all humanity except Noah and his mob. (I also believe Noah’s wife didn’t like unicorns and wouldn’t allow them on the ark.)
 
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Freddy:
So when do you think the flood took place?
I don’t know.
The one where every animal on the planet was killed. Apart from some that Noah saved. And from whom all animals must therefore be descended.
The Flood may not have been global, although it may have killed all humanity except Noah and his mob.
I think you’re making this up as you go. Not global but it killed everyone? Killed everyone but not all the animals? Or were all the animals killed.

Maybe you can tell us the purpose of the ark if not to save examples of all creatures great and small.
 
I think you’re making this up as you go. Not global but it killed everyone? Killed everyone but not all the animals? Or were all the animals killed. Maybe you can tell us the purpose of the ark if not to save examples of all creatures great and small
I don’t have all the answers. There are many mysteries, which I’m happy to leave as mysteries. For all the answers, ask God when you meet him.
 
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I also believe Noah’s wife didn’t like unicorns and wouldn’t allow them on the ark.
Not quite right. Yes, she didn’t like unicorns. She allowed them on board, but fed them to the lions and tigers during the voyage. 😃
 
Your devotion to scientism is showing again - the Genesis account of creation has not been proved false - certain interpretations of it have been proven false.
The interpretations which the person I responded to holds. It’s not “scientism” to follow evidence and observation, and I’m appalled that you would even say such a thing to a fellow Catholic.
 
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Freddy:
I think you’re making this up as you go. Not global but it killed everyone? Killed everyone but not all the animals? Or were all the animals killed. Maybe you can tell us the purpose of the ark if not to save examples of all creatures great and small
I don’t have all the answers. There are many mysteries, which I’m happy to leave as mysteries. For all the answers, ask God when you meet him.
So just to confirm…you are sure that there was a flood. But…

You have no idea when it might have happened.
You have no idea if it was global.
You have no idea if it killed everyone.
You have no idea if all creatures were killed.
You have no idea why animals were saved on the ark.

We seem to get a lot of posts where you emphatically state that this didn’t happen and that didn’t happen. But the moment we ask you what you think did actually happen, you have no ideas at all!
 
If an average chronospecies lasts only a million years … then we have only ten or fifteen chronospecies to align, end-to-end
They don’t have to be end-to-end. It is more than possible for the duration (“lifespan”) of one species to overlap that of a successor species. In fact it is kind of necessary, since speciation isn’t instantaneous.
 
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Buzzard3:
If an average chronospecies lasts only a million years … then we have only ten or fifteen chronospecies to align, end-to-end
They don’t have to be end-to-end. It is more than possible for the duration (“lifespan”) of one species to overlap that of a successor species. In fact it is kind of necessary, since speciation isn’t instantaneous.
Didn’t I say that we were practically at the point when someone would ask: ‘If we are descended from monkeys… etc’

Techno’s statement is one that illustrates the total lack of knowledge that leads directly to that type of question. And this after a couple of years (I’m not exagerating) of having the process explained to him.

Todays readings:

Amused: 4
Bemused: 8
Frustrated: 8
Depressed: 6
 
False. Life was abundant far before the Cambrian period.
In that case, why do scientists call it the Cambrian EXPLOSION?

You’ve been reading too many Darwinist bed-time stories – try learning some facts instead - the diversity of pre-Cambrian biota was a desert compared to what appeared in the Cambrian. The Darwinist fairy tale can’t account for the sudden and massive jump in complexity, diversity and disparity.
The Cambrian just saw the mass diversification of hard-bodied organisms that create fossils.
All pre-Cambrian fossils are of soft-bodied organisms – then suddenly, organisms with endo- and exo-skeletons appear suddenly in the Cambrian without evolutionary antecedents:

“The seemingly sudden appearance of skeletonized life has been one of the most perplexing puzzles of the fossil record. How is it that animals as complex as trilobites and brachiopods could spring forth so suddenly, completely formed, without a trace of their ancestors in the underlying strata? If ever there was evidence of suggesting Divine Creation, surely the Precambrian and Cambrian transition, known from numerous localities across the face of the earth, is it.” (Peter Douglas Ward, 1992, On Methuselah’s Trail: Living Fossils and the Great Extinctions, p.29)

“Ediacaran fossils provide the earliest evidence of metazoan life on Earth. All are impressions of soft-bodied organisms that live in shallow seas over 600 million years ago, about 50 million years preceding the Cambrian. At any rate, they shed little light on the question of which phyla were ancestral to other phyla, or if indeed, animals have common ancestry .” (V. Pearse, J. Pearse, M. Bushsbaum and R. Buchsbaum, Living Invertebrates, 1987, p.764)
Which is an absolutely illogical notion. Why go through all that trouble of just skipping the whole evolution thing?
I don’t think it’s “an absolutely illogical notion” at all - God had to “skip the whole evolution thing” because one genus cannot evolve into another genus via any natural process. Fossils therefore record an unnatural process – ie, a series of miracles - that’s why there are so many scientifically-inexplicable gaps in the fossil record.
Why did God create so many different prehistoric species and wipe them out if the whole intent of creation was to create man?
Who said the “whole intent of creation was to create man”? Is God not capable of coming up with a new idea? Poor God – lives for eternity but can’t come up with any new ideas – he must be so bored!
Point to me the anatomical changes in the fossil record are when original sin occurred.
What “anatomical changes”?
How did humans suddenly get much worse and imperfect after the fall, when other hominid species have the same issues?
What do you mean by “the same issues”?
 
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God gets all credit for creation. He just didn’t create all of Earth’s species suddenly.
I never said God created all of earth’s species suddenly.
The organization itself is pseudoscientific and founded on the lie that they’re a legitimate scientific research organization. They’re not.
Your comment is completely irrelevant to my request, so I’ll try again:
Please cite one example from any article published on evolutionnews.org that employs a non-scientific argument to criticize Darwinism or to promote ID.
I think you’re making this up as you go. Not global but it killed everyone? Killed everyone but not all the animals? Or were all the animals killed.
“The historicity of the Biblical Flood account is confirmed by the tradition existing in all places and at all times as to the occurrence of a similar catastrophe. F. von Schwarz (Sintfluth und Völkerwanderungen, pp. 8-18) enumerates sixty-three such Flood stories which are in his opinion independent of the Biblical account. R. Andree (Die Flutsagen ethnographisch betrachtet) discusses eighty-eight different Flood stories, and considers sixty-two of them as independent of the Chaldee and Hebrew tradition. Moreover, these stories extend through all the races of the earth excepting the African; these are excepted, not because it is certain that they do not possess any Flood traditions, but because their traditions have not as yet been sufficiently investigated. Lenormant pronounces the Flood story as the most universal tradition in the history of primitive man, and Franz Delitzsch was of opinion that we might as well consider the history of Alexander the Great a myth, as to call the Flood tradition a fable. It would, indeed, be a greater miracle than that of the Deluge itself, if the various and different conditions surrounding the several nations of the earth had produced among them a tradition substantially identical. Opposite causes would have produced the same effect.”
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Deluge
 
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Not quite right. Yes, she didn’t like unicorns. She allowed them on board, but fed them to the lions and tigers during the voyage.
They must have run out of cat food. I suppose the local supermarket could supply only so much.
So when do you think the flood took place?
”Genesis places the Deluge in the six-hundredth year of Noah; the Masoretic text assigns it to the year 1656 after the creation, the Samaritan to 1307, the Septuagint to 2242, Flavius Josephus to 2256. Again, the Masoretic text places it in B.C. 2350 (Klaproth) or 2253 (Lüken), the Samaritan in 2903, the Septuagint in 3134. According to the ancient traditions (Lüken), the Assyrians placed the Deluge in 2234 B.C. or 2316, the Greeks in 2300, the Egyptians in 2600, the Phoenicians in 2700, the Mexicans in 2900, the Indians in 3100, the Chinese in 2297, while the Armenians assigned the building of the Tower of Babel to about 2200 B.C. But as we have seen, we must be prepared to assign earlier dates to these events.”
https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04702a.htm
 
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Freddy:
So when do you think the flood took place?
”Genesis places the Deluge in the six-hundredth year of [Noah]…
I thought you said you didn’t know. It seems that you have a reasonable idea. About 2,000 BC give or take a millenium. That’ll do.

So do you have a reasonable idea as to why all the animals had to be taken aboard the ark?
 
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In that case, why do scientists call it the Cambrian EXPLOSION?

You’ve been reading too many Darwinist bed-time stories – try learning some facts instead - the diversity of pre-Cambrian biota was a desert compared to what appeared in the Cambrian. The Darwinist fairy tale can’t account for the sudden and massive jump in complexity, diversity and disparity.
The abundance of life and its prevalence are completely unrelated. Don’t know how you confused the two.
All pre-Cambrian fossils are of soft-bodied organisms – then suddenly, organisms with endo- and exo-skeletons appear suddenly in the Cambrian without evolutionary antecedents:
Wrong. Many precambrian species, like Spriggina, were hard-bodied. They just aren’t as common as hard-bodied fossils are in the Cambrian beds.
I don’t think it’s “an absolutely illogical notion” at all - God had to “skip the whole evolution thing” because one genus cannot evolve into another genus via any natural process.
Is God incapable of making it so?
that’s why there are so many scientifically-inexplicable gaps in the fossil record.
Except there aren’t many gaps in the record, and those that exist can be explained and have been in this very thread.
What do you mean by “the same issues”?
Useless body parts and diseases affecting the body are present before the fall.
I never said God created all of earth’s species suddenly.
Okay, then how do new species come about? Don’t contradict yourself this time.
Please cite one example from any article published on evolutionnews.org that employs a non-scientific argument to criticize Darwinism or to promote ID.
The arguments employed are irrelevant when the organization itself has absolutely 0 credibility.

Notice how my replies have gotten shorter? You’ve provided less and less substance as things have gone on. If you’re running out of ideas, just say so and we can both stop wasting our time.
 
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