Transitive belief

[JimR-OCDS]

They’re in the works of St Teresa of Avila and St John of the Cross.

The Interior Castle by St Teresa by St Teresa, and the Spiritual Canticle of St John’s.

But, this site for Advanced Christianity may be of help; Advanced Christianity

God Bless
Jim

 

[po18guy]

No. 100% of scriptural references regarding our judgment relate specifically to our acts of charity. Not a peep about faith or belief - both of which are still required.

 

[stpurl]

Wow. . .some pretty questionable things on that site. I love St. Theresa but I’m not too impressed with people who uphold Maria Valtora, Medjugorje, etc.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I don’t know anything about Maria Valtora.

Medjugorje, I have major problems with.

I also saw that they have links to Michael Voris site Church Militant which I think is heretical.

The first part has a audio’s from Carmelite Friars, so I thought that perhaps St Teresa and St John of the Cross info would be there.

However, the site is a compilation of MP3 audio’s by Lighthouse Media and they’re merely providing media links to a host of sites, but I’m not going to recommend that site anymore.

If you want to read about St Teresa and St John of the Cross, I recommend ICS Publications
https://www.icspublications.org/.

They are the official site for Discalced Carmelites and our OCDS group used their publications. We also had talks from the director at that time, Fr Payne.

If you do get any books by St Teresa or St John of the Cross, besure it’s the translation by Kieran Kavanaugh, OCD and Otilio Rodriguez, OCD.

They’re the most uptodate. Allison Peers is an older translation and I found it more difficult to understand.

Jim

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

Belief requires receiving the gift of faith to go with it, otherwise it’s just an intellectual decision to believe and we have plenty of Catholics who follow the religion because of a decision to believe, but have yet to receive faith.

Most who only chose to believe, will become frustrated with religion and leave it.

Those who have faith, practice religion out of love for God, who gives them the grace of faith,

Jim

A Catholic who can believe but has not received faith? What the heck?

A Catholic cannot be anyone but someone who is baptized. And each and everyone who has been baptized cannot be someone who has no faith.

CCC 1253 Baptism is the sacrament of faith. But faith needs the community of believers. It is only within the faith of the Church that each of the faithful can believe. The faith required for Baptism is not a perfect and mature faith, but a beginning that is called to develop. The catechumen or the godparent is asked: “What do you ask of God’s Church?” The response is: “Faith!”

And this faith cannot be taken away because it is a gift by God, and as St. Thomas Aquinas points out, a gift is something that is not meant to be returned (Summa Theologiae, I, Q. 38, A. 2). That is why we do not ever “re-baptize” anyone who has received baptism already (see CCC 1272-1274).

You guys actually have it all backwards, at least if you are Catholic: you always have the gift of faith even if you do not believe. That’s why a baby can be baptized: faith is a gift of God. And that’s why St. James in his epistle can say one’s faith is “dead”: it can be still there, but unless the faith is made alive by love it is useless.

Ugh I can’t believe I’m back at CAF, but these “truths” of the Catholic faith being posted in the Spirituality forums is something I really cannot stand.

 

[Roguish]

It’s a process, a work of God that we’re to cooperate in achieving, not truly consummated until we love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength. […] faith (intellectual assent) alone doesn’t make the cut even as it’s a theological virtue, a supernatural gift along with hope and love.

Thanks, that’s a great reply. “Intellectual assent alone doesn’t make the cut.” Precisely what I was thinking. It must lead into a process, as you said, and that process is consummated only when we love God with our whole being.

It’s felicitious that you used the term “consummation”, because I was just thinking of opening another thread to ask whether Christians shouldn’t have a stronger sense of working toward a consummation, or of being transformed (or purified, or perfected) toward a consummation. Many Christians, Catholics included, seem to feel confident that staying the way they are is quite enough, and react miffedly when anyone suggests that their practice is as yet too “static”. Many Christians don’t seem to understand that they need to be on the move, in the spiritual sense, and that this is more important than doing good works tirelessly.

All this may sound disparaging of other people’s practice, but I’m really rather concerned for certain industrious Marthas that I know personally, who really don’t seem to understand at all that Jesus clearly said Maria’s was the better way (Luke 10:41-42 and preceding). I realize that probably there is no point in worrying about the salvation of others – but it’s hard not to.

 

[fhansen]

fhansen:

It’s a process, a work of God that we’re to cooperate in achieving, not truly consummated until we love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength. […] faith (intellectual assent) alone doesn’t make the cut even as it’s a theological virtue, a supernatural gift along with hope and love.

Thanks, that’s a great reply. “Intellectual assent alone doesn’t make the cut.” Precisely what I was thinking. It must lead into a process, as you said, and that process is consummated only when we love God with our whole being.

It’s felicitious that you used the term “consummation”, because I was just thinking of opening another thread to ask whether Christians shouldn’t have a stronger sense of working toward a consummation, or of being transformed (or purified, or perfected) toward a consummation. Many Christians, Catholics included, seem to feel confident that staying the way they are is quite enough, and react miffedly when anyone suggests that their practice is as yet too “static”. Many Christians don’t seem to understand that they need to be on the move, in the spiritual sense, and that this is more important than doing good works tirelessly.

All this may sound disparaging of other people’s practice, but I’m really rather concerned for certain industrious Marthas that I know personally, who really don’t seem to understand at all that Jesus clearly said Maria’s was the better way (Luke 10:41-42 and preceding). I realize that probably there is no point in worrying about the salvation of others – but it’s hard not to.

Yes, in Catholicism, perfection is the goal, and it’s related to our wills:

1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one’s own responsibility. By free will one shapes one’s own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.

1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil, and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.

 

[Greenfields]

"Liking "your post

 

[ratio1]

industrious Marthas that I know personally, who really don’t seem to understand at all that Jesus clearly said Maria’s was the better way (Luke 10:41-42 and preceding).

Again I have to make my point again. It is about how and why rather than what.
Jesus did not say the Martha being industrious is wrong. Rather her heart was not correct. That is she thought Maria should come and help her. I’m sure if Martha chose to make Jesus welcomed as a guest and take care of Maria as well that would be nothing wrong. It’s not what she’s doing that’s the problem, it’s why she’s doing it and her heart that was the problem. It’s the same EVERWHERE throughout the Gospels. Prodigal son: the elder son was not wrong in obeying his father but he thought he was “slaving” for him and also became “jealous” of his young brother that was the problem. I could go on and on about these examples. Jesus had the divine gift of knowing what other people are thinking (so he often know the Pharisees are hypocrites for example) but we don’t have that gift. We can guess yes and you are probably right. But it’s best not to judge and leave that judgement to God. But by all means help them if you think it’s appropriate to do so by pointing out the “better” way as you said but always do it in a charitable manner because you never know, we could be wrong in our assessment.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Many Christians, Catholics included, seem to feel confident that staying the way they are is quite enough, and react miffedly when anyone suggests that their practice is as yet too “static”. Many Christians don’t seem to understand that they need to be on the move , in the spiritual sense, and that this is more important than doing good works tirelessly.

I think we have to be really careful about judging other people’s faith journeys. I also think Martha gets a bad rap. Jesus was telling Martha to take a break, be calm and spend some time listening to him, experiencing him. He wasn’t advocating that people just skip doing their work, or skip doing good works. The Apostles were pretty busy guys. In addition, Martha plays a key role at the raising of Lazarus when Jesus asks her about her belief before he raises her brother from the dead and she affirms her belief. So Martha wasn’t exactly stuck in a rut.

You may see people who to you are not progressing spiritually because they are not going about it the way you yourself would do. You may think they need some spiritual transformation of a certain type. And they get miffed because they feel they are where they should be, doing what God wants them to do. It’s understandable. Furthermore, if they are “doing good works tirelessly” then they are likely on the right path towards the goal because they are recognizing Christ in others and serving Him.

If someone is living a good life - not committing sins, doing good works, going to Mass at least as required, etc. - I don’t think they need you to be “concerned” for them and their understanding. You can of course pray for them and that’s always helpful, but it’s not like God is going to send them to Hell because they did good works but their faith was too “static”. People don’t get condemned for that. To be honest, your viewpoint sounds a bit like those Protestant faiths who would insist that one needs to be “saved” by personally accepting Jesus in some particular special way and that nothing else matters. You’re also not the spiritual director of these persons and you don’t have a good vantage point for knowing just where they are in their faith journey.

In short, I would say, if you think people need a fuller understanding of the Lord so they can share more in his glory, then pray for the Holy Spirit to enter their hearts and build that relationship…but don’t worry about their salvation when they are already living a good life, and don’t butt into their spiritual life by telling them they need this or need that unless they express some openness to the suggestion. Like, “My prayer life seems really boring lately, what can I do?” THEN you can give suggestions, but you don’t just barge up to your relatives and say, “Your spiritual life seems really static and I worry you’re not going to be saved.” I would laugh and shut the door in the face of anyone who did that with me.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Baptism is a sacrament of faith and infants who are Baptised receive the sacrament because of the faith their parents have, not theirs.

It will take time for that infant to grow into maturity and decide to commit themselves to Jesus Christ and His Church.

However, many reject the faith they received from their parents. Others go along to get along.

Few turn to Jesus and ask for the gift of faith and develop a relationship with him.

Jim

 

[Pug]

Christ will always be an “other” in my way of naturalistic thinking. I am not him, he is not me. When I consider Christ and me, I am talking about two people, not one. Something like, say, love, only means something to me if I love him. Me loving is not all that great without him being there to love. Sure great, I am this lovey-dovey person, but what draws my love is him, not me. It is him that I love, it is he who is good, and draws my gaze.

So I think my understanding of a transitive verb is not meshing with your question. I think you are asking about some type of feeling or recognition of a felt experience, an experience besides one of assent, submission or something of the intellect and will. Or maybe you mean there is the experience of saying I believe something and there is also the experience of submission as well, and one needs to submit also, to the one who reveals. And by that one does experience something and acknowledges the other.

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

Jim, thank you for agreeing with me that faith, at least with Catholics, starts with baptism, even for babies and even with adults who have not received it sacramentally but want it, consciously or subconsciously (“baptism of desire”).

Let us remember though and encourage those who are “in the fence” of committing to having a truly deep relationship with God that, although it does take work, it is easier than most may think, and the rewards are truly amazing.

“Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”

(Matthew 17:20)

 

[nuntym]

Now that’s done let me tackle the OP’s question. Honestly the “transitive/intransitive beliefs” terminology just confuses me. Now if you meant, as ratio1 put it, “knowing about” someone vs “knowing” someone, then both have their places in the process of relationships, in that the “knowing about” part is usually in the beginning and “knowing” part grows more predominant as the relationship deepens. The problem that happens, though, is when you persist in the “knowing about” stage when you should have been deepening the “knowing” stage, and vice versa.

And of course this process is the same with having a relationship with God.

The encounter of Jesus with the Samaritan woman at the well is an excellent, touching example of how this process happens. Note especially what the woman’s kinsmen say at the end (John 4:5-30,39-42).

 

[Vico]

would it be healthy (or rather: sufficiently salvific) to have only transitive belief.

Yes, the extreme case is baptism of Blood: martyrdom of a person who died for the Christian faith before he or she could receive the sacrament.

 

[Benadam]

The encounter of Jesus with the Samaritan woman at the well is an excellent, touching example of how this process happens. Note especially what the woman’s kinsmen say at the end (John 4:5-30,39-42).

Interesting, that is an encounter deeply rooted in nuptial love of Christ.

Five of her husbands were no longer her husband. The husband she had at the time of the encounter was not her husband. Her true husband was yet to come but when He does come He would tell her all things, she tells Jesus. Jesus say’s " I am He, the one who is speaking to you." Her acceptance of Jesus is a sign of her finding her seventh husband in Jesus who is her true husband. The story goes on and we find that Jesus was asked to stay but could only stay a short while, two days. Jesus was on a mission the end of which is destruction. His destruction is a fatal wound but He survives as the eighth husband who is also one of the seven. The Samaritan woman is the only other woman he called ‘Woman’.other than His Mother. Deeply nuptial is this story…I’m betting she went on to become spotless for Jesus.