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Agathon
Guest
This is why one doesn’t read the Gospels in isolation.
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BartholomewB
Guest
As I pointed out in an earlier reply to you on this thread, the Greek word for “brother,” αδελφος (adelphos), occurs 343 times in the New Testament. As far as I know, Jerome usually translates it as frater. Have you found any verses where he uses a different Latin word instead?
If you want to check each one of the 343 occurrences, you will find them listed here:
https://biblehub.com/greek/strongs_80.htm
If you want to check each one of the 343 occurrences, you will find them listed here:
https://biblehub.com/greek/strongs_80.htm
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BartholomewB
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So far, I’m with you all the way. But you go on to say:
Was it really “more common”? And even if it was, the very expression “more common” surely implies that there were exceptions.
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Medawlinno
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OK - finally located it -
The +/- 90 years for Joseph’s age comes form the “History of Joseph the Carpenter”, chapter 14. It does not give the name of his previous wife.
The +/- 90 years for Joseph’s age comes form the “History of Joseph the Carpenter”, chapter 14. It does not give the name of his previous wife.
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BartholomewB
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Okay, I’ve found that in M. R. James’ Apocryphal NT, where he gives the History of Joseph the Carpenter in the form of a very brief chapter-by-chapter summary. He describes it as “not earlier than the fourth century in date, and very probably later.”
I fully agree with you when you say:
I fully agree with you when you say:
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Medawlinno
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In my genealogical experience, it’s more likely for a widower to remarry to a woman relatively near his age. He needs someone with experience in rearing children.
That said, I have seen several examples of where the woman is quite a bit younger. So, there were certainly exceptions, BUT…in the exceptions I have encountered, this had more to do with the available “pool” of marital-age women. If there’s no one around your age in the town/village, you generally ended up marrying someone quite older/younger than you. Possible it could be the case here, but the apocryphal stories don’t seem to suggest this was the case.
A little off track here, but this is quite common for first marriages as well, i.e. marrying who was ‘available’ - oftentimes, the only other perspective marriage partner was a cousin; it’s quite common in early New England and Colonial Quebec to see these (hence the term “kissing cousin”).
That said, I have seen several examples of where the woman is quite a bit younger. So, there were certainly exceptions, BUT…in the exceptions I have encountered, this had more to do with the available “pool” of marital-age women. If there’s no one around your age in the town/village, you generally ended up marrying someone quite older/younger than you. Possible it could be the case here, but the apocryphal stories don’t seem to suggest this was the case.
A little off track here, but this is quite common for first marriages as well, i.e. marrying who was ‘available’ - oftentimes, the only other perspective marriage partner was a cousin; it’s quite common in early New England and Colonial Quebec to see these (hence the term “kissing cousin”).
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Medawlinno
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I don’t know - certainly not uncommon to get advice from younger siblings.
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Medawlinno
Guest
Here’s the 14th chapter from the aforementioned text - originally written in Bohairic Coptic. What’s interesting is that the entire story makes references here and there to very typical ancient Egyptian religious beliefs/practices (as sen in the first part of Chapter 15 below - the reference to silver and gold - the date of his death is 26th Epip on the Coptic calendar - on the current Coptic calendar for this year, this corresponds to August 2nd. The chapter also speaks to his age at death)
“14. It happened after these things that he came down to Nazareth, the town
where he lived and fell into the illness from which he was to die, as it is
appointed to every person. His illness was much more serious than all the
others he had ever suffered in his life. Here is the mode of life of my beloved
father, Joseph. He was 40 when he married and spent another 49 years living
with his wife, and she died. He spent a year alone, and my mother spent
another two years in his house, when she had been given to him by the priests,
who instructed him to watch over her until the time for matrimony. At the
beginning of the third year in his house (when she was fifteen), she gave birth
to me on earth in a mystery. There is no-one who knows it in all creation except
me and my Father and the Holy Spirit, we being a unity.”
Egyptian magical Papyrus Harris, where the bones of the god are silver and his
flesh gold. The ‘flesh’ association with gold can be seen in the designation pr-
nbw (lit. house of gold), meaning the sarcophagus chamber of a royal tomb.
(above from A. Alcock’s translation)
“14. It happened after these things that he came down to Nazareth, the town
where he lived and fell into the illness from which he was to die, as it is
appointed to every person. His illness was much more serious than all the
others he had ever suffered in his life. Here is the mode of life of my beloved
father, Joseph. He was 40 when he married and spent another 49 years living
with his wife, and she died. He spent a year alone, and my mother spent
another two years in his house, when she had been given to him by the priests,
who instructed him to watch over her until the time for matrimony. At the
beginning of the third year in his house (when she was fifteen), she gave birth
to me on earth in a mystery. There is no-one who knows it in all creation except
me and my Father and the Holy Spirit, we being a unity.”
- The total life-span of my father Joseph, the blessed elder, were 111 years,
as my good Father ordained. The day he died was the 26th of Epip. The select
gold began to change, that is the flesh of my father Joseph, and the silver
transformed, that is the intellect and wisdom. He became oblivious of eating
and drinking. His carpentry skills went astray. When the dawn broke on that
day, the 26th of Epip, my father Joseph became very troubled on his bed. He
sighed deeply. He clapped his hands together. He cried out,
Egyptian magical Papyrus Harris, where the bones of the god are silver and his
flesh gold. The ‘flesh’ association with gold can be seen in the designation pr-
nbw (lit. house of gold), meaning the sarcophagus chamber of a royal tomb.
(above from A. Alcock’s translation)
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BartholomewB
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You pointed out in one of your earlier posts that a widower’s marriage for the purpose of providing his sons and daughters with a “new mother” only makes sense if they are still young enough to need a mother to look after them. I’d say that takes care of the “octogenarian Joseph” story:
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BartholomewB
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That reminds me of Sonny, Fredo, and Michael Corleone! It’s the youngest of the three who ends up inheriting the family business.
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mcq72
Guest
No, the question isnt that he used frater as brother but why didnt he use Greek words available that were more succint to cousin, as cognato or consubrino(?), when referring to Jesus’s cousins, as he so taught that they were?
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Agathon
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Like how David was over Eliab, and Solomon over Adonijah, and Moses over Aaron…Medawlinno:
That reminds me of Sonny, Fredo, and Michael Corleone! It’s the youngest of the three who ends up inheriting the family business.
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Agathon
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He might’ve wanted to avoid controversy in the Church.
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Agathon
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Not if they also try to take you by force!
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BartholomewB
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Jerome translated the Bible and he also commented on it. A translation is a translation. A comment is a comment.
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Medawlinno
Guest
I should also add, again in my general genealogical research, that it was actually (at least in New England and French Canada) not overly uncommon for an older man to marry a younger woman. This seems to be particularly true if the man was in a profession that would have been considered rather hazardous.
The idea seems to have been that, if he died “on the job”, the widow would be young enough to not only marry again, but to also be young enough to have several additional children by her second husband. Indeed, I have seen a few examples of younger woman marrying an older man only to be widowed twice and married a third time (at around the age 30, because she was married so young the first time) and have yet several additional children by her third husband. Three marriages by 30 and over 20 children by 40.
Point again being that even if Joseph were say 20 or so years older than Mary, additional children after the birth of Jesus was certainly not out of the question.
As mentioned, to me, most of the apocryphal stories concerning Joseph were written to sort of ‘protect’ the emerging concept of perpetual virginity for Mary.
When looking at all three views regarding siblings of Jesus: Epiphianius - children from a former marriage, Jerome - cousins, not siblings, and Helvidius - actual siblings born after Jesus, to me the Helvidian view, as ‘heretical’ as it sounds, seems to be the most valid and reasonable. It seems to require the least amount of ‘explaining’.
The idea seems to have been that, if he died “on the job”, the widow would be young enough to not only marry again, but to also be young enough to have several additional children by her second husband. Indeed, I have seen a few examples of younger woman marrying an older man only to be widowed twice and married a third time (at around the age 30, because she was married so young the first time) and have yet several additional children by her third husband. Three marriages by 30 and over 20 children by 40.
Point again being that even if Joseph were say 20 or so years older than Mary, additional children after the birth of Jesus was certainly not out of the question.
As mentioned, to me, most of the apocryphal stories concerning Joseph were written to sort of ‘protect’ the emerging concept of perpetual virginity for Mary.
When looking at all three views regarding siblings of Jesus: Epiphianius - children from a former marriage, Jerome - cousins, not siblings, and Helvidius - actual siblings born after Jesus, to me the Helvidian view, as ‘heretical’ as it sounds, seems to be the most valid and reasonable. It seems to require the least amount of ‘explaining’.
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Agathon
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What about:
You didn’t touch on the “restraining part” and you slightly ignored the other part.
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Medawlinno
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With respect to the restraining part, do you mean Mark 3:21?
Advising part - referring to John 7?
Advising part - referring to John 7?
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mcq72
Guest
Well wasnt mother there also, if we are referring to Capernum incident.
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mcq72
Guest
Do you mean a commentary as part of or preface to any bible book translation, or do you mean a “comment” to say a Helvidius?
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