Translations versus Interpretations of The Our Father

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I understand you. And I’m familiar with lectio divina. My RCIA instructor taught us how to read Scripture using that method.

What confuses me is why are you worried about praying for others? At least for me, it’s simple: I pray for others as a spiritual work of mercy. That’s my basic intention behind it. If I wanted to go really Ignatian about it, I’d intend it also as a work for the greater glory of God.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
That’s pretty easy to do…
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Not sure if I am right here, but I’d say it’s easier (simpler) to understand than to do… the doing of forgiveness is la via dolorosa…

We’ve never met, Tis_Bear, but I would bet you’re a cool guy… Maybe mercy comes easier for some than others, but - in my case - I’m trying to learn all I can about it… It’s the bread of angels anyway, so why wouldn’t anyone want to enjoy the grace of contemplating it?
 
Um… I’m sorry to tell you; but Tis is a woman. But, as for how cool she is: Totally agree with you. I’d like to meet her over coffee or after praying a Daily Rosary after Mass.
 
Wm777 said:
Not sure if I am right here, but I’d say it’s easier (simpler) to understand than to do… the doing of forgiveness is la via dolorosa…
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Once again, you’re seizing on one word and making a point from that. Of course it’s not always easy to forgive, but it’s clear from my context I was talking about it being easy to understand what Jesus is asking us to do. I easily understand that Jesus wants us to treat other people as we want to be treated. I’m not saying it’s a walk in the park for me to actually DO that all day.

I think perhaps this may just be the way your mind works, or the way you comprehend reading Scripture. It’s interesting because not everybody’s mind works in this way. It’s also something that I think comes up in RCIA, group Bible study, or Lectio Divina, that Person A may really have a confusion or have many questions based on the use of a word (like whether it says Debt or Trespass) while Person B will be sitting there wondering why Person A is even concerned about this.
 
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Just to be clear, I’m not as “worried” about it as this thread is diverging into…

I am a schooled accountant, and I’ve worked in a public accounting firm for the past ten years, and I deal with other people’s financial information daily. It’s part of my professional vocation to deal with their financial and economic interests both objectively and responsibly. And, I have to do so in keeping with secular laws, even though I favor the mercy and simplicity of the religious laws.
 
The Via Dolorosa? Is he talking about the Seven Sorrows of Our Lady?
 
Tis_Bearself said:
It’s also something that I think comes up in RCIA, group Bible study, or Lectio Divina, that Person A may really have a confusion or have many questions based on the use of a word (like whether it says Debt or Trespass) while Person B will be sitting there wondering why Person A is even concerned about this.
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That makes sense.

I’ve noticed it too in Bible studies. It seems like Bibles Studies can often get to a point where people start getting ready to throw the book at one another over particular opinions and ideas. I’ve never been able to explain it, but I think it has something to do with our sinful nature coming out when that happens. I mean, we’re all always going to get to that point where we do “trespass” against each other, disagree with each other, or simply hold differing opinions of the same thing. In the context of mercy, it all works out, but - when people start getting defensive over splinters - I think that’s when we fail to see the beam in our own eye.

Personally, I just love studying all of this stuff as much as I can… I mean, I love praying, thinking, contemplating God’s universe, scripture, and so on… That’s what I think we should be doing…

I didnt mean to suggest forgiveness was easy for you or other people; or, if I did, then I apologize… Forgiveness isn’t always easy… it’s like, when we see that moment of disagreement, which is what motivates so many of the arguments even on this site, or in Bible studies, or all the way to the Holy wars in Jerusalem… it’s like… so important to understand the fifth petition in all of its divine Glory… really… I guess my concern is just that people dont always see it, and yet we lose sharing in the Glory of God’s Love and Charity when we have difficulty simply seeing the disagreement, trespass or debt or whatever it’s called… is somehow still okay…

I mean, it’s like, it IS a trespass… but then… we’re also asking God for the same thing…

It sometimes becomes very hard (for me anyway) to discern what to admit and what to decline as an appropriate action of justice… It’s a sort of “be careful in how you measure things… for what you measure out to others will be measured out to you” type of moment…
 
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Wm777 said:
Matthew was an accountant, and Luke was a doctor.
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Yes.
Matthew’s Gospel has a particular sensitivity to the “little ones”, the people who live in precarious material conditions. I think Luke is indeed concerned about health, not least spiritual health.

And FWIW, I understand why you’re asking the question ; my (Protestant pastor) husband used to have a St. Anselm quote on the door of his office : Credo ut intelligam (I believe, so that I can understand).
 
Michael16 said:
The Via Dolorosa? Is he talking about the Seven Sorrows of Our Lady?
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The Via Dolorosa is the name of that Jerusalem street which was the path Jesus took to the Calvary. It means “the Way of Suffering”. I think @Wm777 simply is saying that he’s struggling with forgiveness, and that forgiving is often a painful path for him. Of course, I could be wrong 😉
 
Michael16 said:
The Via Dolorosa? Is he talking about the Seven Sorrows of Our Lady?
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No, La Via Dolorosa is “The Way of the Cross”… sort of like as depicted in The Stations of the Cross… except I was referring to life in general…

The idea is, forgiveness isn’t always easy… Jesus mercifully walked the way of the cross in redemption for our sins, so it was hard, painful work… That’s the “downside”… That we’re called to do that kind of work, too… by forgiving peoples debts…

The upside is we have an example in Jesus himself as our Savior… We find support and redemption in Him… knowing if we forgive others their trespasses, then we can also ask him for the same with respect to ourselves…
 
OddBird said:
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Michael16:
The Via Dolorosa? Is he talking about the Seven Sorrows of Our Lady?
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The Via Dolorosa is the name of that Jerusalem street which was the path Jesus took to the Calvary. It means “the Way of Suffering”. I think @Wm777 simply is saying that he’s struggling with forgiveness, and that forgiving is often a painful path for him. Of course, I could be wrong 😉
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No, you’re correct…

I enjoy prayer, studying, contemplation, etc… but I’m kind of selfish about it too, I guess… I’d like to be more outgoing, though…

I have asperger’s, so it’s usually a little difficult to “flex” with other peoples ideas and such…

I need people to forgive me, though… so I have to be forgiving first… but, if you think about it, it’s kind of hard to know what to expect… I mean, how to be forgiving, if you haven’t even been offended yet? LOL Just give it time… but then what to do?
 
Gotcha.

The Sorrowful Mysteries are my favorite Mysteries in the Rosary. I often find a lot of good ideas on how to handle stress and suffering in the world by just contemplating the Passion; especially the start point, the Agony in the Garden.

The funny thing was just today: I was driving my niece back from the market and I found myself contemplating the Passion as a theology. The concept of the Passion as an model for life on Earth: Suffering, stress and adversity handled by staying “ heads down “ in love; offering up my sufferings for others and living out love to the point of self sacrificial death.

By the way, I love your husband’s quote. I bet your husband doesn’t understand how Catholic that quote can be. 😏
 
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Michael16 said:
My question is: Why are you thinking this out?

I mean, when I pray the Our Father; I don’t over think it. I pray it, I mean it and I understand the plain reading of the text.

So, I’m not understanding your question.
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Every word that Jesus spoke, including these words in the Our Father, has been translated into English from the Evangelists’ Greek. The translators, by and large, take care to make a good job of it. Do you really think the choice of words is unimportant? Are the translators wasting their time?
 
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Wm777 said:
Why would the NABRE, which is (I think?) supposed to be the official version of the Bible, use “debts”, but the ordinary form use “trespasses”?
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This is a really good question, and once that I’ve thought about myself. I personally use the NRSV-CE as it’s one of the few modern, scholarly English translations that’s both Catholic approved (for personal use and study) and Anglicised. But it’s not approved for liturgical use.

In reflection, I suppose it’s mostly the result of a divergence in purpose: a translation for personal use and study places a higher priority on translation accessibility, accuracy and literal ness. Liturgy often stresses a translation that is consistent with the Latin source text and lies in continuity with traditional translations. Particularly, we often regard these traditional translations as the most aesthetically pleasing and suitably reverent (hence why it can be hard to shake off deeply ingrained translation choices such as “trespasses”). All these principles are valid and where they conflict, they just have to be negotiated on a case-by-case basis.

For example, the NRSV-CE was rejected for liturgical use due its (relatively) greater use of gender inclusive language. For translation purposes, a priority was placed on translating the semantic range of words and, to a lesser extent, also showing courtesy to female worshippers. Of course, the Ordinary Form isn’t explicitly against gender inclusive language: it often uses “brothers and sisters” in English whereas the Latin source text uses “fratres” only. But I can only assume that the Vatican thought the NRSV-CE to be too divergent.
 
BartholomewB said:
Every word that Jesus spoke, including these words in the Our Father, has been translated into English from the Evangelists’ Greek. The translators, by and large, take care to make a good job of it. Do you really think the choice of words is unimportant? Are the translators wasting their time?
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I think Michael means that when he prays the Our Father in the words approved by the Church, or uses a translation approved by the Church, he trusts the translator and the Church approver to have provided the right word and he just takes the teaching generally as a whole, and doesn’t worry about what individual word is used. That’s how a lot of people do it. They can even find it frustrating to start picking the teachings of Jesus apart at the individual word level. I personally see that sort of cherry picking of words very often from sola scriptura Protestants. Of course, I also see it from serious scholars of the original Bible languages and Bible history, and then it can be interesting.
 
He said he couldn’t understand the question.
Michael16 said:
So, I’m not understanding your question.
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I see that as analogous to, “I just drive my car, I never look under the hood. Why would you want to look under the hood? I’m not understanding that.”
 
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Michael’s a new Catholic and has a lot of faith so he doesn’t feel a need to look under his hood for small things like this (it’s a small thing to him, not to the OP) and isn’t aware that there are people who will be looking under the hood every day.

Part of being Catholic is learning that other Catholics get focused on the darndest things, things that never would have occurred to you yourself in a million years.
 
Thank you, Tis. Pretty much if the Church approves it, I defer and I do it.
 
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