Transpecies, transgender

[Dale_M]

Didn’t you read the Church position in the link I gave earlier? Its a grave sin.

Its far from clear that your statement is true. Your link icites, for its reasoning, one priest’s interpretation of Church teaching and also a leaked news report about a purported secret document which has never surfaced.

That news leak, if it is to be trusted, states that the secret document okays sex change as morally permissible in extreme cases.

An analysis of the moral licitness of “sex-change” operations.

It concludes that the procedure could be morally acceptable in certain
extreme cases if a medical probability exists that it will “cure” the
patient’s internal turmoil.

ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/CatholicTSDecision.html

 

[mgreen77]

Didn’t you read the Church position in the link I gave earlier? Its a grave sin.
Here is the link again.

webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.religioustolerance.org/transsexu15.htm

I’ve seen those, but assumed they were speculation, opinion and rumor, not offficial doctrine. But then I don’t really understand how the Church works, so perhaps I’m interpreting that incorrectly?

 

[mgreen77]

Didn’t you read the Church position in the link I gave earlier? Its a grave sin.
Here is the link again.

webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.religioustolerance.org/transsexu15.htm

So basically, a transitioned (anatomically) transsexual:

1. 
   *]Can’t marry (either sex)
   *]Can’t have a physical relationship (with either sex)
   *]Will still be registered as, and considered to be, their birth sex by the Church (even though legally and anatomically female)
   *]Can’t participate in Eucharist unless they confess to now regretting everything they’ve done, and proclaim themselves as male
   *]Probably needs to undo as many physical and legal changes as they can to stop perpetuating the sin, essentially becoming an apparent female-to-male transsexual to strangers
   *]Can’t enter religious life
   *]Accept that the Church considers them untrustworthy and mentally unstable mutilated males
   
   Is that pretty much the deal for a transsexual to be Catholic then?

 

[thistle]

So basically, a transitioned (anatomically) transsexual:

1. 
   *]Can’t marry (either sex)
   *]Can’t have a physical relationship (with either sex)
   *]Will still be registered as, and considered to be, their birth sex by the Church (even though legally and anatomically female)
   *]Can’t participate in Eucharist unless they confess to now regretting everything they’ve done, and proclaim themselves as male
   *]Probably needs to undo as many physical and legal changes as they can to stop perpetuating the sin, essentially becoming an apparent female-to-male transsexual to strangers
   *]Can’t enter religious life
   *]Accept that the Church considers them untrustworthy and mentally unstable mutilated males
   
   Is that pretty much the deal for a transsexual to be Catholic then?

1. 
   Basically a person who is, for example, born male is ALWAYS a male no matter what they think or feel about that and no matter what operations they have to change their sex, and no matter what any civil law might say. You are what you are born.

 

[mgreen77]

Basically a person who is, for example, born male is ALWAYS a male no matter what they think or feel about that and no matter what operations they have to change their sex, and no matter what any civil law might say. You are what you are born.

Right, I understand, but then the religious and living consequences as a Catholic would be as I listed?

I mean there’s no way for a transsexual (born male) to participate in Church services and sacraments AS a female, right?

It’s kind of ironic. A crossdresser really has no problems, as long as they confess to whatever might be needed. A transgender person (who “presents” as a female but remains male) can still participate too, as they really haven’t changed anything.

But an actual transsexual, someone who’s gone through this whole process precisely to AVOID scandal, to fit into traditional roles, to play fair by being at (most of) the same physical disadvantages of other females, to “fit in” and be a normal person living an ordinary life… is pretty much out of luck.

If them’s the rules of God’s Word then it is what it is, and transsexuals have to accept the consequences of their actions, no matter how distasteful. But I just want to be clear those ARE the blunt, honest consequences?

 

[thistle]

Right, I understand, but then the religious and living consequences as a Catholic would be as I listed?

I mean there’s no way for a transsexual (born male) to participate in Church services and sacraments AS a female, right?

It’s kind of ironic. A crossdresser really has no problems, as long as they confess to whatever might be needed. A transgender person (who “presents” as a female but remains male) can still participate too, as they really haven’t changed anything.

But an actual transsexual, someone who’s gone through this whole process precisely to AVOID scandal, to fit into traditional roles, to play fair by being at (most of) the same physical disadvantages of other females, to “fit in” and be a normal person living an ordinary life… is pretty much out of luck.

If them’s the rules of God’s Word then it is what it is, and transsexuals have to accept the consequences of their actions, no matter how distasteful. But I just want to be clear those ARE the blunt, honest consequences?

If they have undergone sex change surgery :

1. Can they marry? NO.
2. Can they have a sexual relationship? NO. A sexual relationship is only allowed between a male and female who are married.
3. Will a biological male or female always be considered the gender they were born? YES.
4. Can they receive the Eucharist without repenting their sin? NO.
5. A man who has had a vasectomy and confesses and repents is not required to have it reversed so if a transsexual truly repented and confessed and had no further surgery he could receive absolution.
6. Can they enter religious life? As far as I can tell, NO.
7. I don’t understand your question. Where does “untrustworthy” come in?
   As for grossly mutilating their bodies YES that is what they have done.

 

[mgreen77]

1. A man who has had a vasectomy and confesses and repents is not required to have it reversed so if a transsexual truly repented and confessed and had no further surgery he could receive absolution.

Transsexuals continue to take hormones after surgery, hormones which may morph their appearance further and affect mood. Plus if they truly regret their choices, shouldn’t they return to being a male as much as possible to prove it? At least so they can again “pass” as a male in public and church so as to not knowingly “deceive” anyone further with their delusion?

1. I don’t understand your question. Where does “untrustworthy” come in?.

I interpreted “because their mental state casts doubt on their ability to make and uphold their marriage vows” as considering them untrustworthy and unstable, unable to keep a promise, etc.

 

[PRmerger]

I mean there’s no way for a transsexual (born male) to participate in Church services and sacraments AS a female, right?

Just so we’re clear–if by “Church services” you mean “Mass”, then, yes, of course a transsexual could participate in the Mass! And if he’s Catholic he could receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation and Anointing of the Sick.

 

[thistle]

Transsexuals continue to take hormones after surgery, hormones which may morph their appearance further and affect mood. Plus if they truly regret their choices, shouldn’t they return to being a male as much as possible to prove it? At least so they can again “pass” as a male in public and church so as to not knowingly “deceive” anyone further with their delusion?

I interpreted “because their mental state casts doubt on their ability to make and uphold their marriage vows” as considering them untrustworthy and unstable, unable to keep a promise, etc.

The priest will tell him what needs to be done.

As for “untrustworthy” you should not put your own interpretation on this.

 

[mgreen77]

Just so we’re clear–if by “Church services” you mean “Mass”, then, yes, of course a transsexual could participate in the Mass!

But could he participate in Mass, dressed as a modest female, knowingly “fooling” everyone into believing he’s really a she? Isn’t that just perpetuating the sin?

And what about participating in church things like bake sales or something? Should he just do those things as a female, allowing everyone to assume he’s really a she?

Ah sorry, I see a a poster beat me to it, suggesting a priest be consulted. Still, though I’m curious on opinons?

 

[PRmerger]

But could he participate in Mass, dressed as a modest female, knowingly “fooling” everyone into believing he’s really a she?

Is he intending to fool people?

 

[mgreen77]

Is he intending to fool people?

At the very least, he knowingly allows it to happen, knowing he COULD do otherwise.

I mean if a homosexual has to both confess AND stop his activities, shouldn’t a transsexual have to do so as well if possible? I realize he can never repair his genitals, but clothing can be changed, breasts could even be removed, etc.

 

[PRmerger]

At the very least, he knowingly allows it to happen, knowing he COULD do otherwise.

Not sure what you mean here. Is he intending to fool folks?

I mean if a homosexual has to both confess AND stop his activities, shouldn’t a transsexual have to do so as well if possible? I realize he can never repair his genitals, but clothing can be changed, breasts could even be removed, etc.

Are you under the misapprehension that homosexuals cannot attend Catholic church “services”, Marie? I would like to assure you that they are most certainly welcome.

As far as the transsexual needing to stop his sins, well, of course he does. But there is nothing sinful about sitting in a church, offering prayers, singing songs, kneeling, sitting, right?

 

[RosalieM]

animals are objects, you can’t marry an object, besides he can’t fill out the paper work

Animals aren’t objects. They have animal souls. Chairs and rocks are objects.
My cat is a handsome “tuxedo” cat named Aslan Max. We had our 3rd anniversary recently and he got to have an extra tin of tuna for cats. He could use his paw print as a signature on any paperwork. (sorry, couldn’t resist

 

[mgreen77]

Not sure what you mean here. Is he intending to fool folks?

Well ironically, I’d guess someone who DIDN’T regret their actions, who still believed they were female, wouldn’t be intending to deceive.

But someone who’d confessed, who knew they were male yet intentionally wore female clothing and kept their female physical attributes… why else do that other than to continue the deception?

Are you under the misapprehension that homosexuals cannot attend Catholic church “services”, Marie? I would like to assure you that they are most certainly welcome.

Oh sure I realize they’re welcome, but I’m guessing if they held hands or kissed in church it’d be rather frowned upon. Isn’t a transsexual showing up as a convincing female the same idea?

And beyond church, doesn’t he sin every day he “deceives” people in public life? Writing “female” on applications? Using women’s rooms?

 

[PRmerger]

Well ironically, I’d guess someone who DIDN’T regret their actions, who still believed they were female, wouldn’t be intending to deceive.

So then he’d still be welcome to worship at Mass, even dressed as a female, but would not be able to partake of the Eucharist. Just like an adulterer, even if he does not regret his actions, is welcome to pray and worship too.

But someone who’d confessed, who knew they were male yet intentionally wore female clothing and kept their female physical attributes… why else do that other than to continue the deception?

Confessed what? That he wants to be a woman and had surgery to promote this desire?

If he confessed and is repentant, then he won’t be appearing in church in women’s dress, right?

Oh sure I realize they’re welcome, but I’m guessing if they held hands or kissed in church it’d be rather frowned upon

Right. Just like an adulterer with his mistress wouldn’t get the if he wanted to hold hands or kiss in church. But they are still welcome.

Isn’t a transsexual showing up as a convincing female the same idea?

Yes. He probably wouldn’t get a on that either. But he’s still welcome.

And beyond church, doesn’t he sin every day he “deceives” people in public life? Writing “female” on applications? Using women’s rooms?

Absolutely.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

At the very least, he knowingly allows it to happen, knowing he COULD do otherwise.

I mean if a homosexual has to both confess AND stop his activities, shouldn’t a transsexual have to do so as well if possible? I realize he can never repair his genitals, but clothing can be changed, breasts could even be removed, etc.

The prohibition against wearing the clothes of the other gender is in Deuteronomy, the OT, which is no longer in force and I don’t see things against it in the New Testament. OTOH Homosexual acts being intrinsically wrong is a precept of natural law meaning it is still in force, it has always and will always be in force.

Animals aren’t objects. They have animal souls. Chairs and rocks are objects.
My cat is a handsome “tuxedo” cat named Aslan Max. We had our 3rd anniversary recently and he got to have an extra tin of tuna for cats. He could use his paw print as a signature on any paperwork. (sorry, couldn’t resist

Can he function as executor of your estate? Make medical decisions in case you are incapacitated?

Well ironically, I’d guess someone who DIDN’T regret their actions, who still believed they were female, wouldn’t be intending to deceive.

But someone who’d confessed, who knew they were male yet intentionally wore female clothing and kept their female physical attributes… why else do that other than to continue the deception?

Oh sure I realize they’re welcome, but I’m guessing if they held hands or kissed in church it’d be rather frowned upon. Isn’t a transsexual showing up as a convincing female the same idea?

And beyond church, doesn’t he sin every day he “deceives” people in public life? Writing “female” on applications? Using women’s rooms?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...i_Pietro_e_Paolo_Messina_Museo_Regionale_.jpg


ma’am, guys have been kissing in Christianity for a long time

What’s wrong with holding hands?

 

[Ana_v]

Dear thread participants,

The recent responses are interesting and worth discussing, however, I really don’t want us to get in trouble with the moderators. I think digression has surfaced (of course, the comments are not entirely irrelevant to the original issue posted, nevertheless, things are moving outside of its scope).

Remember that in the OP I had stated:

By “transgender”, I am not referring to persons born with ambiguous sexual organs.

I perhaps should have left out the words “sexual organs” and simply stated : I am not referring to persons born with genetic/physiological gender-related abnormalities (i.e. persons whose genders were ambiguous from birth).

I prefaced my post the way I did, precisely because I didn’t want the discussion to get caught up in talking about individuals whose genders are not biologically/practically discernable. These are exceptions.

 

[mgreen77]

I prefaced my post the way I did, precisely because I didn’t want the discussion to get caught up in talking about individuals whose genders are not biologically/practically discernable. These are exceptions.

Right, so I assume you’re objecting to the normalization of the idea that perfectly healthy and physically normal people can “change sexes,” that the idea is as outrageous as “changing species,” and that it’s frustrating that people don’t seem to notice this normalization seeping into society?

 

[RosalieM]

Can he function as executor of your estate? Make medical decisions in case you are incapacitated?

Perhaps not, but he can jump to the door top from the desk, which is infinitely more amusing.