Transsexualism, why is it so dispised

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here is one tiny example of how being in the wrong body makes one not function as well. In the last day or two one would notice this thread has heated up in the amount of post done in it. While mine has gone down. When I see transsexualuals getting to live as they should, as women I get down about my situation. I see several posters here all transsexuals getting to live as whats natual for them, while I still have to pretend and live awkwardness almost 24/7, and the " if onlys" start going through my mind rampantly. If I could live as the real me there would be mental and emotional relief for sure… Ohwell:( By the way I still do want them to keep posting here. You have been a big help in this debate.
 
Well, remember he got a ringside seat at age 3 to all the changes. I used to look male, and 3 months later, I looked female. I do some simple sleight-of-hand stage magic, he thought this was just a really clever trick.

He calls me “Zeddie”, or “Zo”. When hurt or frightened, “Daddy”. Sometimes, when we’re cuddling, he forgets and calls me “Mummy”. But usually, just “Zo” in social situations. It stops him having to explain stuff. Even at age 7, he’s learnt that most people either don’t understand, or more usually, just plain don’t believe him.

Like 5% of the couples here in Canberra, we appear to be just your normal, average, everyday pair of lesbians. Again, it stops us from having to explain stuff. The wedding rings we wear are taken as an affectation, as same-sex marriage is illegal here.

sigh Why does life have to be so complex?
Zoe
Oh Zoe, yes, why does life have to be so complex??
I’ve posted this before, if someone is really interested in taking a glimpse into the life of a TS woman, pick up “She’s Not There: A life In Two Genders” by Jennifer Finney Boylan.
She’s a professor of english at the University of Maine. I had the privilege of meeting her and she has been a guess on “Oprah”. Jenny, really fought being TS. She married in the hope that love and living a “normal” life would cure her. She has two boys and when younger, they called her “maddy”. ( mommy/daddy ) Jenny reached a point where she could no longer continue. You have to read the book.
 
However, I didn’t realize how uncomfortable I felt in my overweight body until I had lost the last 10 pounds. I felt so liberated! Like I was finally “me” again.

So maybe that is a small smidgen of what you feel…but there is no diet that will get you “back to right”. But does alteration really accomplish that either?
You’re correct, you do understand a small smidgin of what it’s like. The quantity is infinitely greater, but the feeling is of that type.

Now, try to imagine this… you’ve given birth (under anaesthetic). And when you wake up, your doctor tells you that your baby is fine, but you’ve had some hormonal problems.

You look down, and see you’ve got male genitalia now. And facial and body hair.

Your feelings haven’t changed. Your mind is just the same. But you’ve been assigned a new first name, “Matthew” rather than “Magdalena” because the latter doesn’t fit your appearance.

But wait! The doctor says there’s a treatment that can fix this.

A purely cosmetic surgery? A mere change of appearance? Or a restoration of your birthright as a woman, and a prevention of living a life that feels perverted, strange, un-natural and contrary to your every instinct. A treatment that will stop you from having to learn how to swagger like a man and not swing your hips, A treatment that means you won’t have to learn to suppress your natural body language in order not to be physically assaulted as a “f@ggot” and a “freak”. A treatment that means you won’t have to become an expert male-watcher, copying their outward emotional reactions while wondering how anyone could possibly feel that way.

Maybe you could live with it, at least for a while. But be warned, instead of getting easier over time, it gets worse. The male hormonal mix combined with female cellular receptors in the brain will slowly erode your sanity, till you spiral down into depression, despair, and death. All from purely biological causes that no amount of anti-depressants will touch. It might take two years, or it might take many decades. And every morning of those years, you will wake up from a pleasant dream, and suddenly realise that *there’s something terribly wrong with your body!!! * Every morning, the same few seconds of confusion, as you wonder where your breasts are. And every morning, having to accept reality, and to come to terms with it anew. Because in your dreams, your body is correct, and this terrible thing didn’t happen.

Imagine not even being able to cry, because the testosterone in your body makes you unable to express your feelings,You have to internalise, and stare into a fire, as men do. The male hormones help there.

That was the worst part for me. To be in that situation, and not even being able to cry.

Now instead of imagining it happening in childbirth, imagine it happened when you were only a child of 13. Facing a future like that, and longing for a swift, painless death every single day of every single month of every single year, year after year after year… But knowing that your suicide would hurt all those you love and care about.

Perhaps you would find solace in God. Or perhaps you might just cry “Father! Why hast thou forsaken me?” Before picking up your cross, and trying to be a decent human being, despite everything. Your life isn’t worth living, but maybe you can help someone else whose cause is not hopeless.That would be a victory, and make your existence something meaningful, instead of a hopeless, pathetic and shameful farce.

If you can imagine this, then you have an inkling of what it must be like. Imagining it is one thing though, experiencing it, another.
 
When I see transsexuals getting to live as they should, as women I get down about my situation. I see several posters here all transsexuals getting to live as whats natual for them, while I still have to pretend and live awkwardness almost 24/7, and the " if onlys" start going through my mind rampantly. If I could live as the real me there would be mental and emotional relief for sure.
I had no idea you were pre-op. I’m so sorry for being so thoughtless.

One word of hope though. When you get things fixed, it’s not as good as you thought it would be. It’s infinitely better. No matter how long you have to wait, it’s worth it.

You may think you know the meaning of the word “happiness” now. You do know moments of joy, and peace, and contentment. Fleeting glimpses only, but they exist.

But you don’t know what others take for granted. You don’t now what it is to be happy.

Not yet.

Hugs, Zoe :hug3:
 
I had no idea you were pre-op. I’m so sorry for being so thoughtless.

One word of hope though. When you get things fixed, it’s not as good as you thought it would be. It’s infinitely better. No matter how long you have to wait, it’s worth it.

You may think you know the meaning of the word “happiness” now. You do know moments of joy, and peace, and contentment. Fleeting glimpses only, but they exist.

But you don’t know what others take for granted. You don’t now what it is to be happy.

Not yet.

Hugs, Zoe :hug3:
Thats very caring. More so than many of the “Catholics” :)here
 
Zoe, whoa. It is really hard work even imagining such a thing. I’m putting some effort into it. I think I “saw” it for a moment.

I still have a hard time accepting that surgery is the answer. Why couldn’t I just live as a feminine man? My hair is very short, actually a man’s cut. If a man wore the makeup I wore every day, you couldn’t tell he was wearing any. For months and years I wore my husband’s clothing (when I was “bigger”). But then the reality of living in the world this way, as you describe below…I’m still obviously female. What if I was not-so-obviously male? I don’t know what it’s like to face discrimination like this.
A treatment that will stop you from having to learn how to swagger like a man and not swing your hips, A treatment that means you won’t have to learn to suppress your natural body language in order not to be physically assaulted as a “f@ggot” and a “freak”. A treatment that means you won’t have to become an expert male-watcher, copying their outward emotional reactions while wondering how anyone could possibly feel that way…
Do you think that there are perhaps two classes of TS? Some psychological, some biological? Psychological TS not being helped by surgery, biological…maybe? And so I understand, your own story is that you were born more or less male but you self-identified female, correct?

Whew…heavy stuff.
 
Thats very caring. More so than many of the “Catholics” :)here
I’ll give you :hug3:too, Steffie. You can come to Mass with me anytime. 😉

If you don’t mind my asking, you are married…where is your wife on all of this?
 
Zoe, whoa. It is really hard work even imagining such a thing. I’m putting some effort into it. I think I “saw” it for a moment.

I still have a hard time accepting that surgery is the answer. Why couldn’t I just live as a feminine man? My hair is very short, actually a man’s cut. If a man wore the makeup I wore every day, you couldn’t tell he was wearing any. For months and years I wore my husband’s clothing (when I was “bigger”). But then the reality of living in the world this way, as you describe below…I’m still obviously female. What if I was not-so-obviously male? I don’t know what it’s like to face discrimination like this.

Do you think that there are perhaps two classes of TS? Some psychological, some biological? Psychological TS not being helped by surgery, biological…maybe? And so I understand, your own story is that you were born more or less male but you self-identified female, correct?

Whew…heavy stuff.
Magdelaine, my experience was different than Zoe’s, however, although some can live an androgonous existance, for the majority of us the bottom line is always the same, we can’t live a life of ambiguity. I was trying to keep the “family jewels” in an attempt to save my marriage but that wasn’t working. For me it came down to “I’m a woman and a woman does not have a penis”. If I hadn’t gone to a surgeon, I have no doubt that I would have attempted the dead myself. That’s how revolting “it” became to me.
There is only one “class” of TS and it’s not psychological. There are different levels of intensity, as Harry Benjamin identified. We here on CAF appear to all be “high intensity”.
Surgery was/is our only option.

Rachel
 
Magdelaine, my experience was different than Zoe’s, however, although some can live an androgonous existance, for the majority of us the bottom line is always the same, we can’t live a life of ambiguity. I was trying to keep the “family jewels” in an attempt to save my marriage but that wasn’t working. For me it came down to “I’m a woman and a woman does not have a penis”. If I hadn’t gone to a surgeon, I have no doubt that I would have attempted the dead myself. That’s how revolting “it” became to me.
There is only one “class” of TS and it’s not psychological. There are different levels of intensity, as Harry Benjamin identified. We here on CAF appear to all be “high intensity”.
Surgery was/is our only option.

Rachel
Thanks for your response. In looking at the link that you posted, I’m wondering if male to female TS is more the “norm” than not? Are female to male TS relatively rare? And do you know of any instances of individuals who were allowed to marry in the Church as their “new” gender?

Anyway, this really does strike me as a condition that should be separated from homosexuality on a number of levels. Justice requires it!
 
Thanks for your response. In looking at the link that you posted, I’m wondering if male to female TS is more the “norm” than not? Are female to male TS relatively rare? And do you know of any instances of individuals who were allowed to marry in the Church as their “new” gender?

Anyway, this really does strike me as a condition that should be separated from homosexuality on a number of levels. Justice requires it!
Yes MtF is a lot more prevalent than FtM and I’ve heard of marriages in the curch but believe it might have been done by a priest that was probably not in good standing. really not sure. Zoe seems to be the one that has that type of info at her finger tips.🙂

There those that are attempting to get the term “True Transexual” changed to HBS ( Harry Benjamin Syndrome ) and apparently a group formed under that banner but have fallen out of favor because they took on this “holier than thou” attitude and were bashing the GLB community. They also came up with their own “standards of care” which didn’t mesh with the existing SOC.

And Magdelaine, thank you for your kind, christian attitude:)
 
And Magdelaine, thank you for your kind, christian attitude:)
Thank you, but it’s an honest response to the information that Zoe and others (like yourself) are providing on this condition. This conversation has been very illuminating for me. I am in the process of formulating my thoughts on this, and I will post later on (after the kiddos are fed). 🙂
 
Hun, can I ask a couple straight questions and get a couple straight answers?? Please!
Are we in agreement that the Vatican, in it’s “secret” document to the bishops, made a point that in “extreme cases” SRS was morally acceptable??
Do you just want us to go away:confused::o

Rachel
As I’ve mentioned several times, I do not pretend to be a Vatican expert. That would be a very dangerous thing to pretend. Feel free to do your own research, and again, stop making me responsible for your research.

I have a straight question for you, requiring a straight answer: Why are you persecuting me? Why are you making me out to be your enemy – if you are – or to require me to do your bidding, if that’s what you seek? This is clearly an issue for you. My response to it is as I’ve always stated: It’s completely unChristian for Catholics to be persecuting anybody – whether they understand a lifestyle, agree with a lifestyle, feel uncomfortable about a lifestyle, etc. I’ve never said anything else. Yet you seem to be singling me out just because I’m not specifically getting on an Advocacy Bandwagon of my own accord. I don’t oppose you. I just have other causes I am passionate about that require my attention, and the subjects in those cases are dependents. Thus, I feel a much greater sense of mission and responsibility for them.

But obviously that’s not good enough for you. You won’t be satisfied until you gain an activist in me, or a proponent. It’s just not my thing, and that doesn’t make me less Catholic or less Christian than someone who chooses to be an activist for this particular concern. I wish you well, just don’t distort what I said. Thank you.

As to your snide question about whether I “just want [you] to go away,” feel free to consider such remarks and attitudes Christian. They are not. Nor are they truthful.

What I do want to “just go away,” is some of the judgmentalism on this thread by some advocates who apparently consider themselves spiritually superior to the rest of us. Wow.
 
Aussie Jaz:
and TS should also be recognised as a seperate situation to TG.
Ah poo… Would you mind explaining to me what the difference is again?
Oh dear. I am afraid I am arriving to the game too late, but someone mentioned before that Wikipedia had a good definition noting the distinction between the two. Would this be it?
The word transsexual unlike the word transgender has a precise medical definition.[49] It was defined by Harry Benjamin in his seminal book “The Transsexual Phenomenon”. [49] In particular he defined transsexuals on a scale called the “Benjamin Scale”, which defines a few different levels of intensity of transsexualism.[49] Listed as “Transsexual (Nonsurgical)”, “True Transsexual (moderate intensity)”, and “True Transsexual (high intensity)”.[49] Many transsexuals believe that to be a true transsexual one needs to have a desire for surgery. [50] However it is notable that Benjamin’s moderate intensity “true transsexual” needs estrogen medication as a “substitute for or preliminary to operation.”[49] There also exist people who have had SRS but who do not meet the definition of a transsexual such as Gregory Hemmingway.[51][52] While other people do not desire SRS yet they clearly meet Dr. Benjamin’s definition of a “true transsexual”. [53] Beyond Dr. Benjamin’s work which focused on Male to Female transsexuals there is the case of the Female to male transsexual for whom surgery is not practical.[54]
Outside of the above medical definition there are a wide range of gender expressions which are contrary to the heteronormative expression. Cross dressers, Drag queens, transvestites, Transvestic Fetishist etc.It is notable that many transsexuals go through one of those self identifications before realizing that they are in fact transsexual.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender
What stands out most for me is the focus on male to female, almost disregarding female to male transsexuality. This seems odd, but I am probably misunderstanding something.
 
As I’ve mentioned several times, I do not pretend to be a Vatican expert. That would be a very dangerous thing to pretend. Feel free to do your own research, and again, stop making me responsible for your research.

I have a straight question for you, requiring a straight answer: Why are you persecuting me? Why are you making me out to be your enemy – if you are – or to require me to do your bidding, if that’s what you seek? This is clearly an issue for you. My response to it is as I’ve always stated: It’s completely unChristian for Catholics to be persecuting anybody – whether they understand a lifestyle, agree with a lifestyle, feel uncomfortable about a lifestyle, etc. I’ve never said anything else. Yet you seem to be singling me out just because I’m not specifically getting on an Advocacy Bandwagon of my own accord. I don’t oppose you. I just have other causes I am passionate about that require my attention, and the subjects in those cases are dependents. Thus, I feel a much greater sense of mission and responsibility for them.

But obviously that’s not good enough for you. You won’t be satisfied until you gain an activist in me, or a proponent. It’s just not my thing, and that doesn’t make me less Catholic or less Christian than someone who chooses to be an activist for this particular concern. I wish you well, just don’t distort what I said. Thank you.

As to your snide question about whether I “just want [you] to go away,” feel free to consider such remarks and attitudes Christian. They are not. Nor are they truthful.

What I do want to “just go away,” is some of the judgmentalism on this thread by some advocates who apparently consider themselves spiritually superior to the rest of us. Wow.
You have not answered MY question. Can we agree to disagree?
 
Can we agree to disagree?
No! :extrahappy:

Sorry, just thought amidst the intense seriousness, the atmosphere could use a little lightening up.

Even between those who disagree passionately, there can be love for one’s fellow human being.
 
What stands out most for me is the focus on male to female, almost disregarding female to male transsexuality. This seems odd, but I am probably misunderstanding something.
No, you’re not. It is anomalous. FtoMs are accepted in a way MtoFs are not. It’s far more acceptable for a ‘girl’ to be a tomboy than a ‘boy’ to be a sissy.

MtoFs get sexualised and objectified in a way that FtoMs do not. It’s at this point I’d normally start spouting Feminist cant about the Patriarchy,but I’m not sure my audience would appreciate that. Let’s just say that many men with feminised bodies can adopt a pseudo-male gender role and still not appear different, while that option isn’t available to girls.

Without this, the number of FtoMs and MtoFs would be comparable, rather than the 3:1 ratio that’s found in most countries.
 
As I’ve mentioned several times, I do not pretend to be a Vatican expert. That would be a very dangerous thing to pretend. Feel free to do your own research, and again, stop making me responsible for your research.

I have a straight question for you, requiring a straight answer: Why are you persecuting me? Why are you making me out to be your enemy – if you are – or to require me to do your bidding, if that’s what you seek? This is clearly an issue for you. My response to it is as I’ve always stated: It’s completely unChristian for Catholics to be persecuting anybody – whether they understand a lifestyle, agree with a lifestyle, feel uncomfortable about a lifestyle, etc. I’ve never said anything else. Yet you seem to be singling me out just because I’m not specifically getting on an Advocacy Bandwagon of my own accord. I don’t oppose you. I just have other causes I am passionate about that require my attention, and the subjects in those cases are dependents. Thus, I feel a much greater sense of mission and responsibility for them.

But obviously that’s not good enough for you. You won’t be satisfied until you gain an activist in me, or a proponent. It’s just not my thing, and that doesn’t make me less Catholic or less Christian than someone who chooses to be an activist for this particular concern. I wish you well, just don’t distort what I said. Thank you.

As to your snide question about whether I “just want [you] to go away,” feel free to consider such remarks and attitudes Christian. They are not. Nor are they truthful.

What I do want to “just go away,” is some of the judgmentalism on this thread by some advocates who apparently consider themselves spiritually superior to the rest of us. Wow.
" Why are you persecuting me?"
Well Hun, just because you’re there!!😃
Seriously, I’m sorry you feel that way!!😦

However, this is one of the first posts you made on this thread;
**"An awful lot of posters have exercised an awful lot of patience engaging in discussions about this issue on CAF. However, clearly some people are not satisfied with the answers and wish to change minds, and/or to have the issue supersede other issues in importance & prominence.

To oneself, one’s own problems and sufferings tend to be the most important things in the world. And if a lot of other people are experiencing similar problems, one can receive a lot of empathy and practical support. But if very few people share that situation, it is not realistic to expect that forum participants will want to open yet a fifth thread about the same topic that has already been rehashed and patiently discussed. Same for my own specialty, rare, or unique problems. If I had such specialty situations (and I have – just different ones than this topic), I would seek a specific niche support group in which I could find common ground with others – rather than seeking a conservative or mainstream forum for an extreme or (relatively) rare problem, especially if my moral viewpoint did not coincide with the forum I had already approached unsuccessfully 4 or 5 times, minimum."**

You were one of the first to respond to this thread and unfortunately the majority of posters who feel that what we’re doing is wrong, made their little shpeal and have not been back. And really I’m not not here to make anybody an activist or a proponent. I really could care less.🙂
What I’m here for, if at all possible, is to help make people understand that we are not the SINFUL, HOMOSEXUAL PSYCHOS that a lot of so called Christians are trying to make us out to be. Somehow, I want to make people realize that there are those of us who are not part of the general TG culture that is popularized in the tabloids and on Jerry Springer.
Yes the Vatican stated that we suffer from some psychosis and that surgery does not change anything, etc. What else would you expect from the Vatican, especially in light of the person that they received council from.!!??
However, they did give us a back door, “extreme cases”. Interesting isn’t it!!??😉

What I’m saying is that if people accept that there are “extreme cases”, that would, hopefully, result in a bit less bias.🙂
There are people who make statements based solely on “biased opinion”. They are not willing to do a bit of research on the subject They express their opinion and then fade away. They don’t want to hear or see anything that would bring about a more Christian understanding.
In our case when those opinions are allowed to be expressed whithout challenge, the result is “persecution” and often death.
Zoe has presented some very disturbing reports and there are lots more.😦

Again, I’m sorry you feel the way you do! From now on I will refrain from responding to your posts.😊

Rachel
 
What else would you expect from the Vatican, especially in light of the person that they received council from.!!??
However, they did give us a back door, “extreme cases”. Interesting isn’t it!!??😉
I don’t think that in light of what the Canon lawyer wrote here and here that this is a very charitable thing to say. While I do believe there is a conflation between those who may be suffering some sort of psychiatric disorder and an actual condition, it is clear that the Church leaves door open here, even if it must be considered on a case by case basis.
What I’m saying is that if people accept that there are “extreme cases”, that would, hopefully, result in a bit less bias.🙂
Yes! Exactly. I am beginning to see transsexualism as a condition, not a perversion. The biggest difference between the two is that a condition is something that affects you, while a perversion is a choice. You could say that homosexuality and alchoholism are also “conditions”, but counseling on those things, from a Christian perspective, is relatively easy. Abstain! The sin is in the act, not the desire. The desire is the cross you bear. But what the h - e - double toothpicks are you supposed to abstain from as a true transsexual? Medical treatment?

I think that the Church is correct in saying that a self mutilation resulting from a psych condition is a sin. But clearly there is room, in the silence if you were, for a different position on true transsexual conditions.

The answer, I maintain, lies in education and distancing TS from the homosexual community. Is there a Transsexual Catholic ministry out there? Anyone want to start one?
 
I don’t think that in light of what the Canon lawyer wrote here and here that this is a very charitable thing to say. While I do believe there is a conflation between those who may be suffering some sort of psychiatric disorder and an actual condition, it is clear that the Church leaves door open here, even if it must be considered on a case by case basis.
Yes! Exactly. I am beginning to see transsexualism as a condition, not a perversion. The biggest difference between the two is that a condition is something that affects you, while a perversion is a choice. You could say that homosexuality and alchoholism are also “conditions”, but counseling on those things, from a Christian perspective, is relatively easy. Abstain! The sin is in the act, not the desire. The desire is the cross you bear. But what the h - e - double toothpicks are you supposed to abstain from as a true transsexual? Medical treatment?

I think that the Church is correct in saying that a self mutilation resulting from a psych condition is a sin. But clearly there is room, in the silence if you were, for a different position on true transsexual conditions.

The answer, I maintain, lies in education and distancing TS from the homosexual community. Is there a Transsexual Catholic ministry out there? Anyone want to start one?
I’d be glad to help start one. But I’m unemployed and taking care of a partially disabled spouse now. I’d like to start a TS right to life group too. But daily survival **** is getting in my way! That could very well be the root cause of my diagnosed depression called disthymia.
 
I don’t think that in light of what the Canon lawyer wrote here and here that this is a very charitable thing to say. While I do believe there is a conflation between those who may be suffering some sort of psychiatric disorder and an actual condition, it is clear that the Church leaves door open here, even if it must be considered on a case by case basis.
Yes! Exactly. I am beginning to see transsexualism as a condition, not a perversion. The biggest difference between the two is that a condition is something that affects you, while a perversion is a choice. You could say that homosexuality and alchoholism are also “conditions”, but counseling on those things, from a Christian perspective, is relatively easy. Abstain! The sin is in the act, not the desire. The desire is the cross you bear. But what the h - e - double toothpicks are you supposed to abstain from as a true transsexual? Medical treatment?

I think that the Church is correct in saying that a self mutilation resulting from a psych condition is a sin. But clearly there is room, in the silence if you were, for a different position on true transsexual conditions.

The answer, I maintain, lies in education and distancing TS from the homosexual community. Is there a Transsexual Catholic ministry out there? Anyone want to start one?
:o Sorry I wasn’t specific. I was referring to Cardinal Navarrete as “the Vatican” and McHugh:mad: as the council.
And in stating that they left us a “back door”, I was inferring that maybe they did see that there was probably something more to it than what McHugh seems to believe.
And why was the document sent in secret:confused: I can imagine why.:o
Can you imagine the can of worms that this whole thing opens up to The Church:eek:
 
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