Transsexualism, why is it so dispised

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Magdelaine,

I believe that in order to distance ourselves from the homosexual community, we need to get out from under the TS banner. So a “Transexual Catholic” ministry would receive a lot of unwanted attention.
Also, what would you have Zoe, Steffie, and me do:confused: We are lesbians!!??:o
We’re kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place!!🤷

Rachel
 
Also, what would you have Zoe, Steffie, and me do:confused: We are lesbians!!??:o
Yes, this was a question I had as well. I believe that if the Church were to come around and acknowledge that physical gender does not always match the internal gender from birth, that morally you can’t have it both ways. If you marry a woman as a man in the Church, and later surgically and legally change to a woman (which is presumably what you were all along), the Church may do one of two things: grant an annulment and/or advise you and your spouse to live as sisters. (I’m aware that the Church currently does not recognize that re-assignment as grounds for annulment, I’m just supposing). If you are re-assigned before marriage, and you are attracted to and desire to marry a man, then the Church would presumably grant permission for this (although it’s extremely unlikely this will be done on anything less than a case by case basis). In other words, Church teaching would be the same for you as “new” women in relationships with women as it would be for homosexuals who were the same sex, outer and inner, from birth.

I think you should be encouraged that the letter to which you refer was “secret”. This means that someone, perhaps some powerful someone(s), was not in agreement with what it contained. Someone else thought that it was necessary given the fact that it is a pastoral reality that has to be dealt with, so yes it was sent. *But a secret letter cannot in any way be construed as established doctrine. * It’s simply a guideline.

I agree with you about the word “transsexual”. I wonder if Zoe has any thoughts on this?
 
Yes, this was a question I had as well. I believe that if the Church were to come around and acknowledge that physical gender does not always match the internal gender from birth, that morally you can’t have it both ways. If you marry a woman as a man in the Church, and later surgically and legally change to a woman (which is presumably what you were all along), the Church may do one of two things: grant an annulment and/or advise you and your spouse to live as sisters. (I’m aware that the Church currently does not recognize that re-assignment as grounds for annulment, I’m just supposing). If you are re-assigned before marriage, and you are attracted to and desire to marry a man, then the Church would presumably grant permission for this (although it’s extremely unlikely this will be done on anything less than a case by case basis). In other words, Church teaching would be the same for you as “new” women in relationships with women as it would be for homosexuals who were the same sex, outer and inner, from birth.

I think you should be encouraged that the letter to which you refer was “secret”. This means that someone, perhaps some powerful someone(s), was not in agreement with what it contained. Someone else thought that it was necessary given the fact that it is a pastoral reality that has to be dealt with, so yes it was sent. *But a secret letter cannot in any way be construed as established doctrine. * It’s simply a guideline.

I agree with you about the word “transsexual”. I wonder if Zoe has any thoughts on this?
Let’s see, how can we complicate our lives a bit more??🤷
At any rate, my spouse was advised that the church will grant an annulment if it can be shown that the condition existed pre-marriage. It did!😊
Heck, my best friend in high school, got an annulment from his first wife. Both were catholic and that was after two children. She left him and the church and he is a strong catholic and so is wife #2. It took about a year and $. They able to have a really nice church wedding.
And you’re right, we can’t have it both ways. Imagine if I wanted to play the game, I could get an annulment and find a woman and in the eyes of the church, legaly marry her!! ( in secret I’m sure ):rolleyes:
The problem is, outside the church I’m legally a woman and same sex marriage is not recognized.
Catch 22 🤷
In the meantime, we continue to be condemned and persecuted by our own church. Pastors and parish priests still qoute from McHugh’s defamation of TS women.
A quote from “FIRST THINGS The Journal of Religion, Culture and Public Life” in an article “Surgical Sex” by Paul McHugh. The article came out in 2004 and was used as if it was new news.

“…The post-surgical subjects struck me as caricatures of women. They wore high heels, copious makeup, and flamboyant clothing; they spoke about how they found themselves able to give vent to their natural inclinations for peace, domesticity, and gentleness—but their large hands, prominent Adam’s apples, and thick facial features were incongruous (and would become more so as they aged)…”

He wrote this in the late “70s”, about 50 TS women. These women did not have access to the proceduers that are available today and the internet was not available.
However, there were many women, Renee Richards for one, who McHugh couldn’t have picked out from a mixed group of TS and natal woman.

The above quote is still being used!:mad:
 
First of all you really insulted a whole lotta decent people out here…since we dont agree with you ,you,as most on the left feel they can get away with…you call us ignorant,bigoted,small minded etc and these are the compliments…Why do we ,who know what we are and what our role is in this world…have to bend our knee to you…shall we allow our innocent daugthers to go to the bathroom and be …whatever…by someone who that day feels he is a female etc…talk of Brave new world nonsense! I have beliefs that run counter to yours and I am somehow stigmatized as being beneath you…I must somehow bend the knee to Globalist media moguls,hedonistic entertainers,political hacks and humanistic academicians…if I dont I will be called.a ‘hater’ ooooo,how disgraceful to have values different from the establishment.the same establishment that live in lilly white neighborhoods,send their kids to expensive ivy league schools…and basically look down at we mortals!!! America is becoming like liberated ! China…very pro-abortion,worship of the state over God,dont disobey if our leaders proclaim 2+2 =5…so be it!!! They who have inherited millions must be obeyed at all costs…well,latest tally reveals that close to a million have protested the ‘tolerant’ Prez and his appearance at NDame to be an outrage…and counting…no force on earth can withstand common sense and decency when arroused…onward Christian soldiers…we defeated the nazis,fascists etc and these secular humanists are cup cake and wimps…all the best…have a cookie…Nino
 
The above quote is still being used!:mad:
Yes, I know about McHugh… I read some articles by him a few weeks ago. I think that this is, again, a conflation of psych with real transex/intersex conditions. From what I have read, there is some validity to McHugh’s conclusions for some individuals. However, the tragedy is that his conclusions are being applied across the board by pastors, etc., thus exacerbating the misunderstanding and lack of charity for what true transexuals have suffered.
 
First of all you really insulted a whole lotta decent people out here…since we dont agree with you ,you,as most on the left feel they can get away with…you call us ignorant,bigoted,small minded etc and these are the compliments…Why do we ,who know what we are and what our role is in this world…have to bend our knee to you…shall we allow our innocent daugthers to go to the bathroom and be …whatever…by someone who that day feels he is a female etc…talk of Brave new world nonsense!
Nino, with all due respect, I think if you read some of the information on true transexual and intersexed conditions in this thread and others you will find that these are conditions with a biological basis that are **not **about sexual license, permissiveness, nor are really about sex at all.

I understand where you are coming from, as I am as concerned as you about where our society is going because of homoactivism. But, I will submit that these folks neither share goals with homoactivists nor are inclined to call you bigoted because of your views. They are too familiar with name-calling themselves to be very indulgent in that arena.
 
🤷
First of all you really insulted a whole lotta decent people out here…since we dont agree with you ,you,as most on the left feel they can get away with…you call us ignorant,bigoted,small minded etc and these are the compliments…Why do we ,who know what we are and what our role is in this world…have to bend our knee to you…shall we allow our innocent daugthers to go to the bathroom and be …whatever…by someone who that day feels he is a female etc…talk of Brave new world nonsense! I have beliefs that run counter to yours and I am somehow stigmatized as being beneath you…I must somehow bend the knee to Globalist media moguls,hedonistic entertainers,political hacks and humanistic academicians…if I dont I will be called.a ‘hater’ ooooo,how disgraceful to have values different from the establishment.the same establishment that live in lilly white neighborhoods,send their kids to expensive ivy league schools…and basically look down at we mortals!!! America is becoming like liberated ! China…very pro-abortion,worship of the state over God,dont disobey if our leaders proclaim 2+2 =5…so be it!!! They who have inherited millions must be obeyed at all costs…well,latest tally reveals that close to a million have protested the ‘tolerant’ Prez and his appearance at NDame to be an outrage…and counting…no force on earth can withstand common sense and decency when arroused…onward Christian soldiers…we defeated the nazis,fascists etc and these secular humanists are cup cake and wimps…all the best…have a cookie…Nino
OMG … didn’t see that one coming!! Another inch and I could have been killed or at least badly injured!😦
I’m assuming that he was refering to me!!?? For some one who is so well educated, he either didn’t read all my posts or any of the others. Or he just didn’t understand us.:confused:
A response to that tirade more than likely wouldn’t matter.
The reason I’m using “he” is because he didn’t have the decency to at least “quote”, and if he follows true to form, I don’t expect to see a reply. He seems to have a “hit and run” style in his posts. 😦
 
🤷

OMG … didn’t see that one coming!! Another inch and I could have been killed or at least badly injured!😦
I’m assuming that he was refering to me!!?? For some one who is so well educated, he either didn’t read all my posts or any of the others. Or he just didn’t understand us.:confused:
A response to that tirade more than likely wouldn’t matter.
The reason I’m using “he” is because he didn’t have the decency to at least “quote”, and if he follows true to form, I don’t expect to see a reply. He seems to have a “hit and run” style in his posts. 😦
Don’t take it personally. He is not, in fact, talking about you at all.
 
First of all you really insulted a whole lotta decent people out here…since we dont agree with you ,you,as most on the left feel they can get away with…you call us ignorant,bigoted,small minded etc and these are the compliments…Why do we ,who know what we are and what our role is in this world…have to bend our knee to you…shall we allow our innocent daugthers to go to the bathroom and be …whatever…by someone who that day feels he is a female etc…talk of Brave new world nonsense! I have beliefs that run counter to yours and I am somehow stigmatized as being beneath you…I must somehow bend the knee to Globalist media moguls,hedonistic entertainers,political hacks and humanistic academicians…if I dont I will be called.a ‘hater’ ooooo,how disgraceful to have values different from the establishment.the same establishment that live in lilly white neighborhoods,send their kids to expensive ivy league schools…and basically look down at we mortals!!! America is becoming like liberated ! China…very pro-abortion,worship of the state over God,dont disobey if our leaders proclaim 2+2 =5…so be it!!! They who have inherited millions must be obeyed at all costs…well,latest tally reveals that close to a million have protested the ‘tolerant’ Prez and his appearance at NDame to be an outrage…and counting…no force on earth can withstand common sense and decency when arroused…onward Christian soldiers…we defeated the nazis,fascists etc and these secular humanists are cup cake and wimps…all the best…have a cookie…Nino
That is a very ignorant diatribe! Please don’t equate me with the left or liberal. I happen to be very right to life, pro gun, and anti new world order. I have friendly aquaintaces in the John Birch society. I even attend the Council of Trent rite Mass once in a while. I didn’t vote for Obama either. What I have is a condition where body and brain don’t match. With over 30 years a good 1/3rd of a century of personal study from multiple angles along with relating it to my personal experience, I take umbrage at people who have studied the subject little telling me I don’t know what I’m talking about or I have a self centered agenda. People with my condition attempt suicide far more than most other segement of the population. Usually the hatred an unaccaptance they experience is a big component of why they try to end their lives. That rests on the soul of those who treat us less than human. I actually very rarely ever call anyone ignorant, but on the occasion I do that person had it coming.:mad:
 
Gay rights and trans rights are two different issues.

And for the record, I’m straight, not lesbian. But as I’m married to another woman, I’m celibate.

The Church would permit the anulment of our marriage, as the condition pre-existed, but we don’t want to split. The vows said “in sickness and in health”, no “oh except for the following medical conditions…”

As regards persecuting Gays for being Gay, I think this is hypocritical. We don’t persecute idolators such as Hindus and Buddhists, yet this is not seen as restricting religious freedom. We don’t persecute those who re-marry after divorce, yet their sin is no less than homosexuality. In fact, there’s large numbers of “continuing and unrepentant sinners” in various ways we don’t persecute.

So there must be something more to it. Something even “true transsexuals” experience, both as perpetrators and victims. Call it what you will, homophobia, transphobia, xenophobia, it’s unreasoning fear and hatred that is only “after the event” justified on political or religious grounds.

People “know” that scripture must condemn us. No matter what it actually says. They “know” we must be part of the “Homosexual agenda”.Even if we’re straight. They “know” we must be slaves to our deviant sexual appetites. Even if we’re celibate. They “know” we must be apart of the Marxist-Socialist political group. Even if we’re conservative.

We can undermine these “justifications” with facts and evidence. We can’t force people to confront their own self-deception though, not even when we’ve removed everything else. They’ll just find a new reason.

The latest is to “save the children from sexual predators”. Because to give rights to transsexuals would supposedly allow sexual predators into restrooms.

How’s that again?

Restrooms are public accomodations. Existing law prohibits discrimination.on the basis of sex. So in theory a man could use a woman’s restroom, and in practice, it happens all the time, single fathers escorting their toddler daughters in to “go potty”.To prohibit this would be discrmination on the basis of sex.

So this campaign is a lie too. One Nico has parroted, likely from carelessness in not ascertaining the true situation. I hope so, anyway. But no matter, because if this reason is exploded, there’ll be another one along shortly he can use to justify his pre-judgement. Or in latin, pre-judice, prejudice.

I used to be against rights for Gays. I’m not now, because I cannot see how I can claim the moral high ground and countenance persecution of another group who I find as strange, viscerally loathsome and inherently sinful as others find me. You see, I have been just as guilty in the past of exactly the same things I’m criticising others for now. It’s one of the reasons why I thank the Almighty for putting me in this position, where I’m persecuted in my turn. No matter what the difficulties and challenges I face, it has opened my eyes to shortcomings in myself I wasn’t aware of. A small price to pay.

One more thing - no, the Church does not allow us to marry. We cannot have children, and as the infamous “sub secretum” letter said, we’re regarded as too mentally unstable to take marriage vows seriously. The irony given my own situation, where I take my solemn vow before God even more seriously than the Church does, doesn’t escape me.

God Bless,
Zoe
 
First of all you really insulted a whole lotta decent people out here…since we dont agree with you ,you,as most on the left feel they can get away with…you call us ignorant,bigoted,small minded etc and these are the compliments…Why do we ,who know what we are and what our role is in this world…have to bend our knee to you…shall we allow our innocent daugthers to go to the bathroom and be …whatever…by someone who that day feels he is a female etc…talk of Brave new world nonsense! I have beliefs that run counter to yours and I am somehow stigmatized as being beneath you…I must somehow bend the knee to Globalist media moguls,hedonistic entertainers,political hacks and humanistic academicians…if I dont I will be called.a ‘hater’ ooooo,how disgraceful to have values different from the establishment.the same establishment that live in lilly white neighborhoods,send their kids to expensive ivy league schools…and basically look down at we mortals!!! America is becoming like liberated ! China…very pro-abortion,worship of the state over God,dont disobey if our leaders proclaim 2+2 =5…so be it!!! They who have inherited millions must be obeyed at all costs…well,latest tally reveals that close to a million have protested the ‘tolerant’ Prez and his appearance at NDame to be an outrage…and counting…no force on earth can withstand common sense and decency when arroused…onward Christian soldiers…we defeated the nazis,fascists etc and these secular humanists are cup cake and wimps…all the best…have a cookie…Nino
unlike some others here i do use the word ignorant to describe some people and their responses to issues such as this

ignorance:
(n.) A willful neglect or refusal to acquire knowledge which one may acquire and it is his duty to have.
(n.) The condition of being ignorant; the want of knowledge in general, or in relation to a particular subject; the state of being uneducated or uninformed

now if you dont want to be referred to as ignorant then go and read up on the facts of the issue that have been shown on this and other related threads before going on such a ridiculous rant.
 
Mr. Nino will not post here again. I reviewed all his posts and didn’t see where he actually participated in a debate. His only interest is to express his opinion. It’s really sad because that mentality is what we have to deal with. It is the mentality that every minority has had to deal with.
And it’s a choice.
People can choose to blind themselves to Christ’s teachings.
The unfortunate thing is that unlike us, the hate etc., can spread to others.
I can sympathize with those that think that a “TS” woman would use a woman’s bathroom to prey on their children.
Who knows, it could happen that some pervert would use that loophole to thier advantage.!?
However, all one needs to do is a search on the internet to see how many times a TS person is involved in child molestation as compared to a parent, a sibling, an uncle, an aunt, a relative, a priest, a nun or a serial child molester.
BTW, you can probaly lump some of those into the “serial” category.
I can speak about one that was not a relative, or a friend but someone that “GOOD CATHOLICS” would look up to. Yes, he sat me on his lap in the sacristy, and let his fingers do the talking. ( I was an alter boy ) I was lucky. For me it was a one time event. Others weren’t so lucky. The really sick thing is that a lot of people would have said it was our fault:mad:
Is that what you would have thought Nino??:mad:
And you worry about a few pre-op TS gals using the lady’s room. Give me a break.:mad:
 
In Nino’s post he refered to us transsexuals as whimps. Iv’e got this to say. You take all the persecution, and hatred. Getting beaten within inches of your life for not being like other boys. Then get back to me!:mad:
 
yes hyflyer some sick minded people do think it is our fault …such as a policeman,psychiatrist and some so called friends who had that attitude after i had been raped for the excuse of wanting to know if having sex with me would be like it is with normal girls.
 
yes hyflyer some sick minded people do think it is our fault …such as a policeman,psychiatrist and some so called friends who had that attitude after i had been raped for the excuse of wanting to know if having sex with me would be like it is with normal girls.
You were raped??:confused:
Oh hun … !
The best I can do is give you a cyber-hug and thank God that it was not worse. My heart goes out to you hun.

Rach
 
As regards persecuting Gays for being Gay, I think this is hypocritical. We don’t persecute idolators such as Hindus and Buddhists, yet this is not seen as restricting religious freedom. We don’t persecute those who re-marry after divorce, yet their sin is no less than homosexuality. In fact, there’s large numbers of “continuing and unrepentant sinners” in various ways we don’t persecute.
I think that I should make clear that I don’t think Gays (or those with SSA) should be persecuted either. You are right…there are a lot of folks out there who are as deserving, or more so, of persecution (your friendly neighborhood abortionist comes to mind).

However, I live in California. I’ve seen how easily the tables can be turned via the law; when speaking out against sin becomes a hate crime because a particular sub-group - defined by behavior - is now “protected”. We only recently succeeded in voting for an amendment that defines marriage as being between a man and a woman by a narrow margin, but the homoactivists are not sated. The fact is that “gay” marriage will sooner or later be a reality in this state *against *the will of the people. And this even when there is no legal difference between the current “domestic partnership” laws and marriage…other than the name. And the fact that photographers, florists, therapists, and fertility clinics who decline to serve homosexuals on moral grounds can and will be sued for “discrimination”. (Actually this has already been happening, with some success).

So I myself am very wary of the idea of special rights being granted to a class of people based on behavior. Because unfortunately their rights apparently trample my rights to live and express my moral convictions and beliefs, and to educate my kids in the public schools without them being taught that what Bob and Larry are doing is a-ok.

(I do not mean the word “homoactivist” to be derogatory; I picked up that word from the gay catholic blogger Dreadnought.)

Their issues are completely separate from was you all have to deal with because of the nature of your bodies and your births.

Actually, I think that Nino has performed a service for us, as he has unwittingly answered Steffie’s original question, “Why are transsexuals so despised?” The answer is:

People don’t know who or what you are.

Change that, and you will see an end to the persecution.

Zoe, the Church does allow for sterile individuals to marry, so I will hold on to my hope and belief that it may be possible for those with TS to be married sacramentally in the Church. I love the way you speak of and honor your commitments; it’s a rare quality to see in someone these days. You are blessed because of it.
 
You were raped??:confused:
Oh hun … !
The best I can do is give you a cyber-hug and thank God that it was not worse. My heart goes out to you hun.

Rach
thanx.(and thanx to you too magdelaine)

the situation i spoke of is the main reason why i have no problem in stepping on peoples toes and using the word ignorant towards them when they are being ignorant.
if i am unaware of the facts of an issue i dont go and display violence or hatred ,instead i go and open my eyes and try to learn what i can about the issue from whatever angles i can.finding out from those directly affected is usually the first step.
its a shame that more people dont educate theselves in this way.it is also a shame that these same people have to often show the violence and/or hatred due to the ignorance of not reaching out to learn before acting in such a horrible way
 
Zoe, the Church does allow for sterile individuals to marry, so I will hold on to my hope and belief that it may be possible for those with TS to be married sacramentally in the Church.
Transmen may not though, not unless they have paid $120,000 and been lucky enough to be in the 1 in 3 where the operation is successful.
IMPOTENCE - Incapacity for marital intercourse. Impotence, unlike sterility, hinders the human act of generation, that is, the copula. Impotence that is prior to marriage and is permanent, whether on the part of the man or the woman, whether known to the other party or not, whether absolute or relative, invalidates marriage by the natural law. Absolute impotence prevents marital intercourse with all other persons; relative impotence prevents it only with a certain person or persons.
STERILITY - The incapacity, because of physical or psychological deficiencies, to reproduce. Sterility, unlike impotence, neither invalidates marriage nor renders it illicit.
Source(s):
www.catholicreference.net
Canon law Can. 1084 §1, states: “Antecedent and perpetual impotence to have intercourse, whether on the part of the man or the woman, whether absolute or relative, nullifies marriage by its very nature”
while Canon Law 1084 §3 states “Sterility neither prohibits nor nullifies marriage, without prejudice to the prescript of Can. 1098.”
So those transwomen whose operations were imperfect - perhaps 10% - cannot marry either.

It could be, and in one infamous court-case in the UK (Corbett vs Corbett) before a Gay judge was, and successfully, argued that a neo-vagina is a mere pouch, a cosmesis.
In any event, however, I would, if necessary, be prepared to hold that the respondent was physically incapable of consummating a marriage because I do not think that sexual intercourse, using the completely artificial cavity constructed by Dr Burou, can possibly be described in the words of Dr Lushington in D-E v A-G (falsely calling herself D-E)b as ’ordinary and complete intercourse’ or as ’vera copula-of the natural. When such a cavity has been constructed in a male, the difference between sexual intercourse using it, and anal or intra-crural intercourse is, in my judgment, to be measured in centimetres.
I believe this is the Church’s view too. Personally, it’s my belief that when the learned Judge said this, it was out of spite. That as Homosexuals like himself weren’t allowed to marry, these “trannies” shouldn’t either. Worse, they were obviously women!! YUK!!!

Saying that the difference between rubbing a penis between the legs, sodomy, and intercourse between a transwoman and her partner is merely “a matter of centimetres”:was obscenely cruel.

I need to work on my charity, I still think some extremely uncharitable thoughts about Lord Justice Ormrod. His view in 1970 set back the rights of TS people all over the world, and continues to be quoted and used to overturn the validity of both Transsexual and Intersexed marriages today. His moment of jealous spite has caused, and continues to cause, untold misery.

I wish I could talk to him over this. If he says 'It was a moment of human weakness, I’m sorry" I’d forgive him in an instant. If he said “it was an honestly held opinion at the time, which later evidence has shown was wrong, and I’m sorry”. Then no forgiveness would be needed, but I’d grant that anyway. If he even said “It was and remains an honest opinion”, then I’d disagree, but no forgiveness would be necessary there either, But as far as I know, he remains unrepentant and uncontrite.

I feel so arrogant, “granting” or “withholding” forgiveness, as if I wasn’t a sinner too. But I’d like to forgive him, purely out of selfish motives. I dislike feeling this way about any fellow human being.
“There’s so much good in the worst of us, and so much bad in the best of us, that it little behooves any of us to talk about the rest of us”
  • John Brantingham
 
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