Transubstantiation and Catholic Scientists

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Have the ‘blessed’ hosts ever been subjected to chemical tests ? I’d suspect not. We are not to put God to the test. I don’t think the Vatican would allow such experiments, since its been hard to even get the approval to test the Shroud of Turin.

How can the creation ‘test’ for the Creator ? Christ’s risen body is Supernatural, invisible, and probably beyond our Organic [carbon-based] Chemistry / Physics. I’d suspect if the host were tested … we would only find bread & wine molecules upon organic analysis. Yet, Catholics know Christ resides within the host. A Supernatural event has occurred … but, its doubtful even a Believing Catholic could detect a ‘chemical’ or ‘physical’ change, with our lab ‘probes’.

What do our Church or Vatican Scientists say or allow … on the matter of investigation ?
 
There is no need for chemical tests because there is no expectation that the host should appear as anything other than bread. Catholic dogma makes no claims about physically observable characteristics of the host. And non-Catholics are certainly are not making any such claims either. So since no one expects a difference, why should anyone look for one, as opposed to spending their time looking for other scientific phenomena?
 
I am a chemist and a Catholic. While I have not done any studies to analyze the host before and after transubstantiation, I do not believe that one would find a difference, chemically speaking of course… Chemical analysis is of the human world, and would never be considered to explain the divine.

I think that the key to understanding transubstantiation is that Jesus has chosen to communicate with us in forms that are familiar to us, such as baptism by water (not fire), appearing as a baby and man (as opposed to a burning bush) and in the form of wine and bread (something that we see everyday, even 2000 years later).

The unique things about Jesus and the New Testament is that we are spoken to and directed by Jesus in ways that are uniquely human. Jesus gave the Sermon on the Mount where he deliver the beatitudes and moral lessons through parables. He did not sent a messenger to the top of Mt. Sinai to deliver stone tablets, but he spoke to us in a way that we could understand. He suffered a human death and appeared in bodily form after his resurrection because that is what humans understand. It only makes sense that Jesus would come to us during mass in a form that we know and recognize, bread and wine. It is our belief and his gifts that make the bread and wine something that is more than what they appear, as Jesus himself was more than what his appearance would imply.
 
brb3 said:
Have the ‘blessed’ hosts ever been subjected to chemical tests ? I’d suspect not. We are not to put God to the test. I don’t think the Vatican would allow such experiments, since its been hard to even get the approval to test the Shroud of Turin.

How can the creation ‘test’ for the Creator ? Christ’s risen body is Supernatural, invisible, and probably beyond our Organic [carbon-based] Chemistry / Physics. I’d suspect if the host were tested … we would only find bread & wine molecules upon organic analysis. Yet, Catholics know Christ resides within the host. A Supernatural event has occurred … but, its doubtful even a Believing Catholic could detect a ‘chemical’ or ‘physical’ change, with our lab ‘probes’.

What do our Church or Vatican Scientists say or allow … on the matter of investigation ?
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Scrutinizing under a microscope would do nothing, since the accidents of bread and wine remain after they are transformed into the body and blood of Christ.

Steve Ray says in his video (and I’m paraphrasing) that if you put Christ’s flesh under a microscope while He was walking the earth, you would not have seen His divinity. Same goes for the Eucharist.
 
RosaryFan said:
Steve Ray says in his video (and I’m paraphrasing) that if you put Christ’s flesh under a microscope while He was walking the earth, you would not have seen His divinity. Same goes for the Eucharist.
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Yeah, but I wonder what his DNA would have looked like. After all, only one of his parents was a mortal human being.
 
Young_Thinker said:
Yeah, but I wonder what his DNA would have looked like. After all, only one of his parents was a mortal human being.
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The Church has addressed this. They say Jesus got the full compliment of maternal DNA from Mary … thus Son of Man.

But, on the Paternal side, Christ could of obtain the male DNA complement in a variety of ways. The full genetic paternal DNA could of been created de novo, or perhaps only the Y-Chromosome. Some or all of the male DNA was God-Breathed transformed or Pre-existing matter … thus also Son of God.

Certainly the Risen Christ obtained a Supernatural constitution, that allowed him to pass thru Carbon-based structures/walls, etc.
 
Chemical analysis can not detect transubstantiation. If someone claimed that it could, it would be a hoax.

Accidents (or appearances) are those qualities that are apparent to our senses–or to any scientific instruments, which are only extensions of our senses.

We cannot get at the underlying substance of any object except through its accidents. And in transubstantiation, it is the accidents that remain the same.
 
Young_Thinker said:
Yeah, but I wonder what his DNA would have looked like. After all, only one of his parents was a mortal human being.
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I know He got all of his DNA from Mary, so it must’ve looked like hers. I guess they didn’t do DNA testing back then. 😃
 
Chemistry, biology, and physics study the physical accidents of objects. To expect any physical science to penetrate the mystery of the Eucharist is to expect too much. We need to give credit to God, not the flawed eyes of we sinners.
 
RosaryFan said:
I know He got all of his DNA from Mary, so it must’ve looked like hers. I guess they didn’t do DNA testing back then. 😃
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I know, but you have to have some DNA coming from the father. Otherwise, Jesus’s DNA would look like He was His Mother’s identical twin (other than Him having a Y chromosome, which, of course, must be given by the father).
 
brb3 said:
The Church has addressed this. They say Jesus got the full compliment of maternal DNA from Mary … thus Son of Man.

But, on the Paternal side, Christ could of obtain the male DNA complement in a variety of ways. The full genetic paternal DNA could of been created de novo, or perhaps only the Y-Chromosome. Some or all of the male DNA was God-Breathed transformed or Pre-existing matter … thus also Son of God.

Certainly the Risen Christ obtained a Supernatural constitution, that allowed him to pass thru Carbon-based structures/walls, etc.
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I see. Thank you for explaining this.
 
A consecrated host would appear exactly like an unconsecrated host to any chemical analysis. The accidents of the bread and wine remain but the form changes to the body and blood of Christ. This is a mystery of the faith, but it is important to stress that the doctrine of transubstantiation faces no problems of logical coherence. What a thing is is logically independent of how it seems to our senses. Hence, to use only an approximate example, Iron Pyrite looks a lot like gold but it isn’t. Seeming like gold is not logically sufficient for being gold. Likewise, seeming like bread and wine is not logically sufficient for being bread and wine. In most cases, our only knowledge of a thing is via its accidents and so we don’t normally assume that two things with the same accidents have different forms. The Eucharist is, however, an extraordinary or “miraculous” occurance and so we cannot analyze it the way would the normal cases.
 
brb3 said:
Is there more information on this event ? Perhaps in Vatican files ?
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If there is, let me know about it. You know how to find me here.

You won’t be able to find what you are looking for if you expect the socratic method to be used, which believers have stated does not apply to their belief system. Special knowledge arguments and other impediments remain to an honest and open discussion about this matter of faith. Faith is able to overcome all obstacles because …
 
I just stumbled upon this yesterday. Is this a known hoax?

Ron Wyatt talking about JESUS blood sample
brb3 said:
The Church has addressed this. They say Jesus got the full compliment of maternal DNA from Mary … thus Son of Man.

But, on the Paternal side, Christ could of obtain the male DNA complement in a variety of ways. The full genetic paternal DNA could of been created de novo, or perhaps only the Y-Chromosome. Some or all of the male DNA was God-Breathed transformed or Pre-existing matter … thus also Son of God.

Certainly the Risen Christ obtained a Supernatural constitution, that allowed him to pass thru Carbon-based structures/walls, etc.
Click to expand...
 
TrueLight said:
I just stumbled upon this yesterday. Is this a known hoax?

Ron Wyatt talking about JESUS blood sample
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If you are unable to have discernment over the veracity of this Ron Wyatt, then does this mean the bible is not to be taken literally at all times? Or only in some parts? Which ones?

Who will say?

If you think it is Ron Wyatt who should be praised or shunned is something that the Holy Spirit should guide people with clean hearts to, right?

So why does he have a ministry if that is the case?
 
StrawberryJam said:
If you are unable to have discernment over the veracity of this Ron Wyatt, then does this mean the bible is not to be taken literally at all times? Or only in some parts? Which ones?

Who will say?

If you think it is Ron Wyatt who should be praised or shunned is something that the Holy Spirit should guide people with clean hearts to, right?

So why does he have a ministry if that is the case?
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Strawberry J. …

Watched the video. First I’ve every heard about this Ron Wyatt. What is his background, this ministry you allude to, what do you know about him ?

Any lab techs or pathologists/hematologists here that can comment on ‘dried blood’ … and what happens if it is cultured in growth media ?

Any geneticists here … who can comment on blood having only 23 haploid, maternal DNA and a single Y-chromosome ?
 
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