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JRKH
Guest
Jan -
Why do you require that Jesus reinforce this at the last supper? This WAS clarified between Jesus and the 12 already in John 6…there was no need for Him to repeat Himself at that time…
In John 6…When many disciples left over what he was saying, Jesus turned to the 12 and asked if they were going to leave as well. Peter, speaking for all said, “Where shall we go, you have the words of eternal life”. They did not fully understand (just as we don’t fully understand even today) but they were going to stay with Jesus.
So at the last supper, when Jesus said “This is my Body” and “This is my Blood”, they who were with him at the time of John 6 could hardly have missed the significance of what he was saying…No need to repeat it…
AND - as at least a couple of us have pointed out to you…The idea of the presence being symbolic is foreign to the faith from the time of Paul, who wrote of it in his first letter to the Corinthians, all the way down to the time of Luther (who also believed in the Real presence).
East and West agreed that Christ is truly present in the Holy Eucharist - Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.
I give this answer in equal humility to your question as a gentle fraternal correction of my (brother?/sister?) in Christ.
Peace
James
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spockrates
Guest
Hi, Janx. John 6 is one of the reasons I considered returning to Catholicism. Before that, I was Fundamentalist Baptist and then Evangelical. I suppose I should take a fresh look at the passage. Will you answer some questions for me? If you are willing, here is my first question: Where in the Bible is the meaning of the metaphor of eating flesh and drinking blood explained?
J
JRKH
Guest
I’m glad that this astonishes you…What it should hopefully do is to give you pause and a desire to understand why the Council felt the need to compose this canon they way that they did.
Perhaps it would help you to understand by reading ALL of the session on the matter of the Holy Eucharist. The Documents are HERE.
From this I am sure you will gather just how much importance the Ancient Church places on the Holy Eucharist.
Peace
James
C
Cinette
Guest
51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats of this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
52 The Jews then disputed among themselves saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you,
unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day;
55 for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink.
56 Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me and I in them.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so whoever eats me will live because of me.
As can be seen Jesus keeps repeating himself in succession. Don’t you think that he was insisting on what he was saying?
52 The Jews then disputed among themselves saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you,
unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day;
55 for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink.
56 Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me and I in them.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so whoever eats me will live because of me.
As can be seen Jesus keeps repeating himself in succession. Don’t you think that he was insisting on what he was saying?
C
Cinette
Guest
*Since you reject the Real Presence which the Cathecism calls the “source and summit” of our Catholic Faith, what makes you Catholic? *
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Cinette
Guest
Absolutely! Can you imagine the unworthy consumption "is eating and drinking damnation unto oneself" for a symbol? Could a symbol evoke such punishment?
C
Cinette
Guest
You are sooo RIGHT!
J
janxharris
Guest
Hi spockrates,
John6:30-35:
So they asked him, “What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’”
Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
“Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread.”
Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.
Jesus says that ‘whoever comes to me will never go hungry’, not ‘whoever eats a piece of consecrated bread will never go hungry’.
I understand the later verses (50-58) in this light.
In verse 29 we have:
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
Jesus, in his ministry, emphasises again and again that belief in him is the key. If John 6:53 (Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.) is to be taken literally then it would seem to negate the importance of simple belief without ceremony (and in particular the Eucharist). It seems that the Catholic understanding of this verse is (please correct me if I am wrong):
Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you partake of the Catholic Eucharist, you have no life in you.
Cheers,
Jan
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janxharris
Guest
Hi James,
Before I reply please tell me how important is the Eucharist to you? Is it an absolute necessity for salvation? How literally do you take Jesus’ words in John 6:53:
Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
Jan
po18guy
Well-known member
The Holy Eucharist is Christ Himself made present. There is no greater presence on earth. It is the source and summit of our Catholic faith. Tomorrow I am going to spend time with our Eucharistic Lord. Miracles have occurred in His presence. Supernatural things that make no sense in the secular world. The consolation of the Holy Spirit. Healing. Comfort. Peace. These are not remote, distant occurrences. They are intensely personal, as I have experienced them.
J
janxharris
Guest
Thanks for this Po18guy…but is the Eucharist an absolute necessity to you in view of Jesus’ word…‘unless you eat…and drink…you have no life in you’?
In your view, if I don’t take the Catholic Eucharist before I die, what will happen to me?
H
harrisrose77
Guest
Matthew 16:4-12.
‘‘An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign; and a sign will not be given it, except the sign of Jonah’’ And he left them and went away.
And the disciples came to the other side of the sea, but they had forgotten to bring any bread. And Jesus said to them, ‘‘Watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.’’ They began to discuss this among themselves, saying ‘‘He said that because we did not bring any bread.’’ But Jesus aware of this said, ‘’ You men of little faith, why do you discuss among yourselves that you have no bread? Do you not yet understand the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets full you picked up? or the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many large baskets full you picked up? How is it that you do not understand that I DID NOT speak to you concerning bread? but beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.’’ Then they understood that He did not say to beware the leaven of the bread, but of the TEACHING of the Pharisees and the Sadducees. Sharron.
po18guy
Well-known member
Jesus’ command to the Apostles was to “take, eat” and “take, drink” He commanded this immediately after giving thanks and identifying what appeared to be bread as His Body, and what appeared to be wine as His Blood. Jesus is incapable of either deceiving or of being deceived, thus we take His words at absolute face value. The Eucharist is the fulfillment of His promise in Matthew 28:20 to be with us, “even to the end of the age”
Consider also after His resurrection, at Emmaus. He was made known in the breaking of the bread (Luke 24:35). He was not known until He gave thanks and broke the bread. The two disciples, who had walked and talked with Him along the way, were prevented from recognizing him until He repeated His actions at the last supper in the upper room. He disappeared, but the bread remained. That is telling.
As to yourself, you are held accountable for what you, in your heart, believe to be true. That is on the one hand. On the other hand rests the responsibility to seek the truth, wherever it leads you, and no matter the cost.
J
janxharris
Guest
So, in summary, you would say that all those that refuse the Eucharist are not saved?
po18guy
Well-known member
Careful! Are you, by your own authority and private interpretation of scripture, denying the belief and practice of the Apostles themselves? The belief and practice that the Apostles handed on to those who came after them, and which are still practiced and believed today? Of all of the churches on earth, only two trace directly to Christ. Both believe, and have always believed, in Christ’s presence in the Eucharist. Think of this: you are judging even Martin Luther to be wrong! Are you certain that you want to do this?
The verses you cite have nothing to do with Christ making Himself present or known in the breaking of the bread. Rather, Christ was speaking of and condemning the hypocrisy of the Pharisees.
The Eucharist is not, and never has been, a sign. It is Jesus Christ made present. Why? He said so. Matthew, Mark, Luke and Paul confirm this.
Christians must not rely on the private interpretation of scripture, as the bible prohibits this. We must not use the bible alone, as the Church was not founded on a bible. Jesus sent Apostles forth, not bibles. The bible was a much later development of the Church.
po18guy
Well-known member
If they know and believe in the Eucharist, and reject it, they are rejecting Christ. That is clear. Yet, for those who do not yet believe in His presence, but who love the Lord, of course salvation is possible. Yet, do not be tricked into believing that one is saved while yet on earth. We are saved once we enter heaven. Paul wrote of those Christians who “are being saved.” He admonished us to work out our salvation “with fear and trembling.” He told us to run the race that is set before us. Jesus told us to “persevere to the end” to be saved. It is not a one-time event, but an entire life in Christ.
J
janxharris
Guest
Forgive me po18guy, but in saying this you are not taking Jesus completely at his word. John 6:53 says:
Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
po18guy
Well-known member
He was speaking to those who believed His every word - as He intended it. Read Luke 12:42-48. We receive according to our knowledge of the truth. For those of us who know much, much will be required of us. Those of us who know little, little will be required of us. Our reward or punishment is according to what has been given us, and what we have done with it. Those who misunderstand and who do not carry out Jesus’ commands will receive less of a beating.
Yet, we are not talking technicalities here, but seeking the truth as best we know how and always relying on the Lord’s mercy. For those of us who trust that Jesus is present in the Eucharist, it is worth dying for. Yet, if you do not, or cannot believe this, but still love the Lord, His mercy is still there for the asking on that Day.
What we are called to do is to give ourselves fully to the Lord, and so receive the fulness of life in return. If we stop short of seeking the full truth, we cannot have the fulness of life within us. Whether you ever believe in the Eucharist or not, it is what the Apostles believed and handed on. For my part, I cannot leave my Lord in the Eucharist, as I know He is there. He has revealed that to me in unmistakable ways.
From the most simple to the most profound faith, it is all God’s grace.
S
spockrates
Guest
Hey, Jan. I like that you quote from the NIV. It has been my Bible of choice since I was a teen.
When I had a similar discussion with the Catholics here years ago, I said much the same. They told me that they agreed with Jesus. He is the bread of life they must eat to continue to have eternal life–he is the bread and wine. I began to see they believed the Bible, too–they just took his words more literally than I did.
Would you agree that the difference of understanding between Catholics and non-Catholic Christians is in part caused by biblical texts that are misinterpreted? Would you say such misunderstandings are sometimes due to the ambiguous wording of some scriptures?
Well, that’s the point of disagreement over how to interpret to text, isn’t it? Catholic Christians believe Jesus meant this:
Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man [which is the bread] and drink his blood [which is the wine] you have no life in you.
Non-Catholic Christians might believe Jesus meant this:
Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you [believe in] the flesh of the Son of Man and [believe in] his blood, you have no life in you."
That is, we don’t have to believe we must eat the bread and drink the wine, for eating and drinking are simply metaphors for believing in Christ’s flesh and blood.
But I want to be sure I’m not misinterpreting what you wrote! Please tell me if I’m understanding your understanding of the verse correctly. If I am, then please tell me what it is about the flesh and blood of Christ that Christians must believe in order to have eternal life.
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