Transubstantiation and Real Presence

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What exactly does transubstantiation mean? I seem to encounter so many different understandings and explanations, and I just get more and more confused. Many explanations refer to old language of substance and accident which are hard to understand today. What is the best way to describe the specific change that occurs in the bread and wine during consecration using 21st century terminology?

I am also confused about what beliefs can be included in the frequently used term “Real Presence.” This term seems very vague and can include so many different understandings to different people. Does this term have an exact definition? Or is it somewhat subjective as to what can be included in this category?
 
“Transubstantiation” refers to an action. It is the change from bread and wine into Christ’s body and blood. The bread and wine are no longer there, but only their physical properties.

“Real Presence” refers to a state of being. It is Christ’s body and blood being on the altar, even though it looks like bread and wine.

The reason there is technical metaphysical terminology and not just inexact, vague definitions, is because of different heresies and errors that arose. Some men taught, for example, that Christ is only present during the rite, or only for those who have faith. Such errors have huge consequences – for example, if you think it goes back to bread, then why not simply discard what’s left over? But if it is Christ’s body, that would be so disrespectful to our God. Some errors are very subtle, and require theological precision to correct. But us laymen don’t have to be experts. It is enough to believe what the Church teaches, and to accept correction when we are wrong.
 
“Transubstantiation” refers to an action. It is the change from bread and wine into Christ’s body and blood. The bread and wine are no longer there, but only their physical properties.
In what ways do the bread and wine actually change?
 
Transubstantiation:
the conversion of the substance of the Eucharistic elements into the body and blood of Christ at consecration, only the appearances of bread and wine still remaining.

I like to think of it this way, The moment that the priest raises the bread and wine up during consecration he reaches through time and space to that important moment at Calvary, and when he reaches back down what was once bread and wine is now Body and Blood.

Here’s a link with pictures that help to visualize.
adoroergosum.blogspot.com/2014/09/3-great-reminders-of-what-really.html?m=1

And here’s a link with an exceptional (in my opinion) explanation. (It also includes pictures:))
michaeljournal.org/articles/roman-catholic-church/item/the-holy-mass

Hope this helps.👍
 
In what ways do the bread and wine actually change?
That question can’t be answered without getting into metaphysics, which really requires technical terminology for precision. Short of that the best I can do is to say, the bread and wine disappear, except for their physical properties (appearance, taste, texture, etc). In other words, there is more to a thing than what we perceive with our senses. But that’s getting into metaphysics and you didn’t want that.
 
Don’t want to start yet another Eucharist thread so I’ll post my question here. Hope its ok with OP 🙂 if not please ask moderation to delete.

For those non Catholic Christians who believe in real presence. Do you bow before receiving the body and blood? Do you genuflect to the Lord in the tabernacle? Assuming you have a tabernacle? If not, why not?

Thanks
 
I’ll try my hand at explaining.

You talked about “substance” and “accidents.” Substance is what an object actually is. Accidents is what it appears to be.

Remember how Jesus appeared to the two disciples walking, talking about how He had been crucified, but they didn’t recognize him? It was really Jesus there, but they couldn’t see Him for who He actually was. Similarly, we can’t see the Eucharist for what- rather, who- it actually is.
 
I’ll try my hand at explaining.

You talked about “substance” and “accidents.” Substance is what an object actually is. Accidents is what it appears to be.

Remember how Jesus appeared to the two disciples walking, talking about how He had been crucified, but they didn’t recognize him? It was really Jesus there, but they couldn’t see Him for who He actually was. Similarly, we can’t see the Eucharist for what- rather, who- it actually is.
Are there any other examples where the accidents of an object do not match what the substance is?
 
What exactly does transubstantiation mean? I seem to encounter so many different understandings and explanations, and I just get more and more confused. Many explanations refer to old language of substance and accident which are hard to understand today. What is the best way to describe the specific change that occurs in the bread and wine during consecration using 21st century terminology?

I am also confused about what beliefs can be included in the frequently used term “Real Presence.” This term seems very vague and can include so many different understandings to different people. Does this term have an exact definition? Or is it somewhat subjective as to what can be included in this category?
Transubstantiation means that the bread and wine become the entire Christ and miraculously appear to be bread and wine. Not only the entire Christ is present but the Trinity due to the penetration and indwelling of the three divine persons reciprocally in one another.
 
Don’t want to start yet another Eucharist thread so I’ll post my question here. Hope its ok with OP 🙂 if not please ask moderation to delete.

For those non Catholic Christians who believe in real presence. Do you bow before receiving the body and blood? Do you genuflect to the Lord in the tabernacle? Assuming you have a tabernacle? If not, why not?

Thanks
Though I usually don’t reply to a question so couched or addressed (as you likely know), …
  1. I kneel to receive my Lord. As do all in the the Mass who receive, unless physically unable. And no one, not in Orders, will touch the confected sacrament, save in receiving it. That is, no Extraordinary Ministers of Communion. And there is a
    piscina/sacrarium, which connects to consecrated ground, and where the altar vessels and cloth are washed, separately.
  2. I either genuflect, or bow, in reverencing the Presence on the altar. Typically, bow, as I approach the rail.
  3. You may assume the altar has a tabernacle, yes. Where the Blessed Body is reserved.
Standard for traditional Anglo-Catholic parishes.
 
Though I usually don’t reply to a question so couched or addressed (as you likely know), …
  1. I kneel to receive my Lord. As do all in the the Mass who receive, unless physically unable. And no one, not in Orders, will touch the confected sacrament, save in receiving it. That is, no Extraordinary Ministers of Communion. And there is a
    piscina/sacrarium, which connects to consecrated ground, and where the altar vessels and cloth are washed, separately.
  2. I either genuflect, or bow, in reverencing the Presence on the altar. Typically, bow, as I approach the rail.
  3. You may assume the altar has a tabernacle, yes. Where the Blessed Body is reserved.
Standard for traditional Anglo-Catholic parishes.
Thanks.

I was part of a traditional Anglican parish…and they genuflected. However, i was told it was basically just a target for worship. Where as in the Catholic faith it was made very clear to me who was in the tabernacle and why we bow or genuflect. And so this has piqued my interest for those who believe in real presence…if things are clearly explained and how many who hold real presence belief actually demonstrate it with these actions.

Also was in LCMS for a stint. Seemed some folks genuflect and cross themselves and others did not.
 
That question can’t be answered without getting into metaphysics, which really requires technical terminology for precision. Short of that the best I can do is to say, the bread and wine disappear, except for their physical properties (appearance, taste, texture, etc). In other words, there is more to a thing than what we perceive with our senses. But that’s getting into metaphysics and you didn’t want that.
If the appearance, taste, texture and chemical composition of an object remains the same, in what ways does it change?
 
Thanks.

I was part of a traditional Anglican parish…and they genuflected. However, i was told it was basically just a target for worship. Where as in the Catholic faith it was made very clear to me who was in the tabernacle and why we bow or genuflect. And so this has piqued my interest for those who believe in real presence…if things are clearly explained and how many who hold real presence belief actually demonstrate it with these actions.

Also was in LCMS for a stint. Seemed some folks genuflect and cross themselves and others did not.
For Catholics this is central , the core of our faith. That Jesus Christ is really there present in the Eucharist. The Eucharist IS HIS Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.

Those Catholics who partake in the Eucharist, without believing this are committing Sacrilege. There can be no greater offense to the Holy Trinity then rejecting that the Eucharist is Jesus Christ’s Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.

Susiano through the mystery of the Eucharist, Jesus Christ is present at every Mass, and changes the bread and wine into His Body and Blood, through the consecrated hands of His Priests.
 
Thanks.

I was part of a traditional Anglican parish…and they genuflected. However, i was told it was basically just a target for worship. Where as in the Catholic faith it was made very clear to me who was in the tabernacle and why we bow or genuflect. And so this has piqued my interest for those who believe in real presence…if things are clearly explained and how many who hold real presence belief actually demonstrate it with these actions.

Also was in LCMS for a stint. Seemed some folks genuflect and cross themselves and others did not.
It is also made clear in my parish. Catholic faith, yes. Quite clear.

Haven’t had a Eucharistic Benediction in years, but the monstrance is still in the sacristy.
 
Christ demonstrated that he could do miraculous things with his body, and he also demonstrated miraculous multiplication (loaves and fishes). So, I then imagine what would happen if the actual particles (protons, neutrons, electrons) are particles from his body, miraculously multiplied. Since the appearances are taken from the arrangement of those particles into atoms and then molecules, then the appearances wouldn’t change.

Please understand, I’m NOT saying that’s what happens. But that’s how I can imagine the substance of a thing changing, but not its accidents. Since we’re no longer educated in philosophy these days, that analogy is easier for me to understand than things like pointing out that the “chairness” of a chair doesn’t depend on the materials it’s made of. But those examples obviously work for a lot of people!
 
For Catholics this is central , the core of our faith. That Jesus Christ is really there present in the Eucharist. The Eucharist IS HIS Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.

Those Catholics who partake in the Eucharist, without believing this are committing Sacrilege. There can be no greater offense to the Holy Trinity then rejecting that the Eucharist is Jesus Christ’s Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.

Susiano through the mystery of the Eucharist, Jesus Christ is present at every Mass, and changes the bread and wine into His Body and Blood, through the consecrated hands of His Priests.
Real presence was not a big issue for me.

Because I saw the scriptural support going back to the OT and the mountain of ECF support…

And if we can believe that God came to earth in a human body and ate and went to the bathroom, it’s not difficult to believe that when he says he will be with us always, he also means through consecrated elements at Holy Communion.

Now, transubstantiation is a six syllable word that scares people away, lol. But it’s the best that human effort could produce.
 
If the appearance, taste, texture and chemical composition of an object remains the same, in what ways does it change?
If a person is no good, thief, murder, just plain rotten to the core, imagine that person.
Now let’s imagine that something happens and this person becomes the most wonderful person in the world charitable, kind, etc.

We could say that person has truly changed inside, but this person’s appearance wouldn’t have changed, this person’s DNA wouldn’t have changed, this person’s blood type, height, eye color, etc. all would remain the same.
Yet there would be a change.

Now this is only meant as a simple analogy (probably not the best analogy) in laymens terms.

Hope this helps.👍
 
If the appearance, taste, texture and chemical composition of an object remains the same, in what ways does it change?
I am unable to give any kind of explanation in a short post. But perhaps it would help to recognize that the opposite happens quite commonly (that is: the accidents (appearance, taste, texture, et cetera) change while the substance remains unchanged)?

You are not the same as you were when you were an infant, nor a child, nor a year ago, nor a day ago, nor a minute ago – You have ingested resources, expelled wastes, changed in appearance, experienced new thoughts, ideas, and sensations. Yet you remain identical to that infant-you, that child-you, that year-ago-you, that day-ago-you, that minute-ago-you. You have never ceased being you*. Your substance has remained unchanged even while your accidents have changed dramatically.

(* Or, if you would argue that you now are not identical to the yous of the past, I would ask: When did you stop being the you of the past and become the you of today? How did you know?)

:twocents:
tee
 
If the appearance, taste, texture and chemical composition of an object remains the same, in what ways does it change?
From Fr. John Hardon, S.J. Modern Catholic Dictionary:
TRANSUBSTANTIATION. The complete change of the substance of bread and wine into the substance of Christ’s body and blood by a validly ordained priest during the consecration at Mass, so that only the accidents of bread and wine remain. While the faith behind the term was already believed in apostolic times, the term itself was a later development. With the Eastern Fathers before the sixth century, the favored expression was meta-ousiosis “change of being”; the Latin tradition coined the word transubstantiatio, “change of substance,” which was incorporated into the creed of the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215. The Council of Trent, in defining the “wonderful and singular conversion of the whole substance of the bread into the body, and the whole substance of the wine into the blood” of Christ, added “which conversion the Catholic Church calls transubstantiation” (Denzinger 1652). After transubstantiation, the accidents of bread and wine do not inhere in any subject or substance whatever. Yet they are not make-believe; they are sustained in existence by divine power. (Etym. Latin trans-, so as to change + substantia, substance: transubstantiatio, change of substance.)”
Here is a lengthier article regarding transubstantiation from the Catholic Encyclopedia, and a link to a Called to Communion website regarding the Church fathers on the change in the bread at the Consecration.

Fr. Antoninus Wall, O.P. asks these questions of those who question, do not grasp, or who deny transubstantiation: "What did you have for breakfast this morning? Toast? What became of that toast when you ate it? Did it not become your living flesh, your body automatically converting it? If your perishable human body can convert bread into living flesh, how can you deny that God did the same, when He specifically says that He did?

Another way of looking at it is to consider the hypostatic union, which all Christians believe. Even though Christ’s human body remained fully human, it was alloyed/fused/united with the Divine, although not changed in appearance or function (“accidents”) in the slightest. Arius and his spiritual descendants, the Jehovah’s Witnesses denied(y) that Christ was divine, in part because His appearance was fully and completely human. Yet, we Christians know with certainty that His 100% human Body contained the Divine nature.

Consider also the tomb as Jesus passed through either the earthen walls or the stone: Their appearance (“accidents”) did not change even though their substance contained Christ in both His human and Divine nature as He passed through them. The same may be said for the locked doors of the upper room when our Lord appeared to the disciples: Those locked doors did not change in appearance (“accidents”), but the Lord was fully present in them as He passed through them. Jesus passed through the stone and the doors, but chose to remain in the consecrated bread - the only difference. Keep in mind that, as the Passover Lamb, He had to be eaten and so He sacramentally inhabits/possesses the bread, changing its substance so that that we might receive the Bread come down from Heaven, eat it and never die.

As an aside, the empty tomb and locked doors also indicate the rationality of the Catholic doctrine of Mary’s perpetual virginity. Just as Jesus passed through the walls/stone of the tomb and the locked doors without physically altering them; as their accidents remained unchanged, so also He passed from Mary’s womb to earthly life without physically altering Mary’s body. The principle involved is that Creation yields to Creator.
 
I’ll take a swing at trying to simplify this, but please forgive any errors and feel free to correct me. :o

Aristotle made a distinction between the essential and accidental properties of a thing. For example, a chair can be made of wood or metal, but this is accidental to its being a chair: it is in essence still a chair regardless of the material from which it is made.

To put this in technical terms, an accident is a property which has no necessary connection or effect to the essence or substance of the thing being described.

Catholic theologians such as Thomas Aquinas have employed the Aristotelian concepts of substance and accident in articulating the theology of the Eucharist, particularly the transubstantiation of bread and wine into body and blood.

The accidents of the appearance of bread and wine do not change, but the entire substance changes from bread and wine to the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ.
 
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