Trappist's Church

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Msecc27

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Hello I’m new to site and also to Traditional Catholicism. I found a picture here of a Trappist abbey, Mount St. Joseph Abbey, Roscrea, in my home diocese in Ireland, Killaloe.

nli.ie/glassplates/KE/KE_296.jpg

What confuses me in this picture is on the altar there is 8 candles, usually there is 6 and 7 if the diocesan Bishop is celebrating Pontifical Mass. This looks to me like a Pontifical Mass, so its either Dr. Fogarty the diocesan bishop or Dom McCarthy, the Abbot. Also you can see the 2 acolytes candles on the right, so the 2 extra candles on the altars aren’t acolytes candles.
Also the Throne is on the right and not the left why would this be? I’ve seen in other photographs of the Abbey the throne on the left-side, where it should be.

Thanks.
 
I think they are rubrically justifying this by claiming that the candles on the gradine (the raised shelf on the back edge of the altar) are the actual altar candles, while the flanking two are just random decorative bits.
 
I’m guessing the two flanking candles are for Low Mass, and stand on the altar all the time. This isn’t that unusual in my experience. It would be impractical to move around candlesticks that heavy on a regular basis. Hard to tell if they are lit, but I’m guessing they’re not. Don’t know about the throne.
 
Msecc27 said:
Hello I’m new to site and also to Traditional Catholicism. I found a picture here of a Trappist abbey, Mount St. Joseph Abbey, Roscrea, in my home diocese in Ireland, Killaloe.

nli.ie/glassplates/KE/KE_296.jpg

What confuses me in this picture is on the altar there is 8 candles, usually there is 6 and 7 if the diocesan Bishop is celebrating Pontifical Mass. This looks to me like a Pontifical Mass, so its either Dr. Fogarty the diocesan bishop or Dom McCarthy, the Abbot. Also you can see the 2 acolytes candles on the right, so the 2 extra candles on the altars aren’t acolytes candles.
Also the Throne is on the right and not the left why would this be? I’ve seen in other photographs of the Abbey the throne on the left-side, where it should be.

Thanks.
Click to expand...
This is a Benedictine house. We must keep in mind that in the Benedictine liturgical tradition, the abbot has a lot of freedom with the rubrics as long as he does not change what the Church does not allow to be changed.
 
Some parishes that I have been to use what they call, “Sanctus candles” they are lighted just before the Consecration and extinguished immediately after. A Dominican parish I used to attend used one Sanctus candle , another one used two. ???

Nothing to get picky about, I suppose.
 
I was reading on the internet and found out if the diocesan bishop the throne had to be set up on the Epistle side of the Church.
 
Ad_Orientem said:
I’m guessing the two flanking candles are for Low Mass, and stand on the altar all the time. This isn’t that unusual in my experience. It would be impractical to move around candlesticks that heavy on a regular basis. Hard to tell if they are lit, but I’m guessing they’re not. Don’t know about the throne.
Click to expand...
My parish does the same thing.
 
It’s not a cathedra. It’s the superior’s seat. Benedictines have a special seat for the Abbot.

The candles are not the same as what you would find in a typical Roman Rite church. The Benedictines, even though they are Roman Rite, have a form of their own. Actually, the form of the mass varies from one Benedictine congregation to another. The abbot creates the form and with the form comes the arrangement of the sanctuary.

We have to be careful not to impose our secular tradition on Benedictines and mendicants. It does not work. They’re not perfect fits. It would be like going to a Franciscan TLM and looking for prayers at the foot of the altar. They’re optional for Franciscans. It’s up to the superior, not up to the rubrics. So it is with Benedictines and other of the old orders. They have options that other people don’t have. They also have customs that are very unique to them, such as the Abbot’s Chair, which is like a throne.
 
Luigi_Daniele said:
Yessir. It’s why Abbots dress like Bishops.
Click to expand...
That’s right. In the Benedictine, Augustinian, Franciscan, Jesuit, Carmelite and Carthusian tradition, the Ordinary of the community is treated with great reverence.

The Benedictines call him Abba.

The Franciscans and Jesuits call him Father.

The Augustinians, Dominicans and Carmelites call him Prior.

If anyone listens carefully, when we speak of our founders we refer to them as “our holy father”
 
Msecc27 said:
Hello I’m new to site and also to Traditional Catholicism. I found a picture here of a Trappist abbey, Mount St. Joseph Abbey, Roscrea, in my home diocese in Ireland, Killaloe.

nli.ie/glassplates/KE/KE_296.jpg

What confuses me in this picture is on the altar there is 8 candles, usually there is 6 and 7 if the diocesan Bishop is celebrating Pontifical Mass. This looks to me like a Pontifical Mass, so its either Dr. Fogarty the diocesan bishop or Dom McCarthy, the Abbot. Also you can see the 2 acolytes candles on the right, so the 2 extra candles on the altars aren’t acolytes candles.
Also the Throne is on the right and not the left why would this be? I’ve seen in other photographs of the Abbey the throne on the left-side, where it should be.

Thanks.
Click to expand...
There has been some recent revival of the Cistercian Rite, which this may be. Its hard to tell from the pictures, though that might explain some of the noted differences. It also appears that the two candles on the far right and left are not really on the altar, though it is hard to tell for sure.
 
jwinch2 said:
There has been some recent revival of the Cistercian Rite, which this may be. Its hard to tell from the pictures, though that might explain some of the noted differences. It also appears that the two candles on the far right and left are not really on the altar, though it is hard to tell for sure.
Click to expand...
Are you sure that there is a Cistercian Rite? I know that there is a Carthusian Rite. The Cistercians follow the Rule of St. Benedict, not St. Bruno. I’m confused now.

I know that the Benedictines have many forms of the one Roman Rite.
 
JReducation said:
Are you sure that there is a Cistercian Rite? I know that there is a Carthusian Rite. The Cistercians follow the Rule of St. Benedict, not St. Bruno. I’m confused now.

I know that the Benedictines have many forms of the one Roman Rite.
Click to expand...
Hi Brother,

There is definitely a Cistercian Rite, though it is not widely used.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
In this first picture, if you notice the 6 candles on the altar, and then two other candles to the side and towards the Nave. In a space which was not angled as this obviously is, it might look very similar to what was posted by the OP. I believe without that narrowing angle, those candles would be immediately to the right and left of the altar.



In the second picture, if the we can see the 6 candles on the altar, and one off to the right side. The candle on the left is presumably there, though cut out of the picture. Again, if this space was small as in the picture provided by the OP, those other two candles might end up closer to the altar and look very similar to the picture linked to above.

newliturgicalmovement.org/2013/01/images-from-cistercian-rite.html
newliturgicalmovement.org/2010/07/cistercian-rite-in-wisconsin.html
rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2013/01/a-cistercian-monastery-rediscovers.html
 
jwinch2 said:
Hi Brother,

There is definitely a Cistercian Rite, though it is not widely used.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-jt7BwSw5LhA/UOoomki4wqI/AAAAAAAAWoQ/SzloQSfThVs/s400/mbu_20090113_1.jpg
In this first picture, if you notice the 6 candles on the altar, and then two other candles to the side and towards the Nave. In a space which was not angled as this obviously is, it might look very similar to what was posted by the OP. I believe without that narrowing angle, those candles would be immediately to the right and left of the altar.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-fXnOTxrnc1U/UOGEaxLHXeI/AAAAAAAAA3E/EaR8zye4LPc/s320/Mass.jpg

In the second picture, if the we can see the 6 candles on the altar, and one off to the right side. The candle on the left is presumably there, though cut out of the picture. Again, if this space was small as in the picture provided by the OP, those other two candles might end up closer to the altar and look very similar to the picture linked to above.

newliturgicalmovement.org/2013/01/images-from-cistercian-rite.html
newliturgicalmovement.org/2010/07/cistercian-rite-in-wisconsin.html
rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2013/01/a-cistercian-monastery-rediscovers.html
Click to expand...
Thank you for that.

The candles did not really attract my attention. In our community we use three on either side of the tabernacle and two on the altar. All eight are only used for solemnities. We never use any for the proclamation of the Gospel as do diocesan clergy.
 
Luigi_Daniele said:
Yessir. It’s why Abbots dress like Bishops.
Click to expand...
Abbots also use the bishop’s blessing at the end of Mass. Abbots have more or less the same authority as a bishop, within their abbey, except that they don’t have the authority to ordain.
 
OraLabora said:
Abbots also use the bishop’s blessing at the end of Mass. Abbots have more or less the same authority as a bishop, within their abbey, except that they don’t have the authority to ordain.
Click to expand...
The superiors of the orders of men have jurisdiction over their men and over any layperson attached to their houses and parishes. They need not be bishops. To be an order you must belong to one of the following families either be male or cloistered nun:

Augustinian
Benedictine
Franciscan
Carmelite
Jesuit
Basilian
 
JReducation said:
It’s not a cathedra. It’s the superior’s seat. Benedictines have a special seat for the Abbot.

The candles are not the same as what you would find in a typical Roman Rite church. The Benedictines, even though they are Roman Rite, have a form of their own. Actually, the form of the mass varies from one Benedictine congregation to another. The abbot creates the form and with the form comes the arrangement of the sanctuary.

We have to be careful not to impose our secular tradition on Benedictines and mendicants. It does not work. They’re not perfect fits. It would be like going to a Franciscan TLM and looking for prayers at the foot of the altar. They’re optional for Franciscans. It’s up to the superior, not up to the rubrics. So it is with Benedictines and other of the old orders. They have options that other people don’t have. They also have customs that are very unique to them, such as the Abbot’s Chair, which is like a throne.
Click to expand...
Neat.

Maybe someday I’ll get to experience some of these things. I missed the last “pre-Vatican II” (I have no idea what to call this missal) Dominican Mass in our area.
 
JReducation said:
The superiors of the orders of men have jurisdiction over their men and over any layperson attached to their houses and parishes. They need not be bishops. To be an order you must belong to one of the following families either be male or cloistered nun:

Augustinian
Benedictine
Franciscan
Carmelite
Jesuit
Basilian
Click to expand...
Don’t forget Dominican. 🙂

I believe what he is referring to is that the Abbot, like the Bishop, is considered to be a successor to the Apostles. As noted, this is why you will see him giving blessings in the manner of a Bishop at the end of the Mass. Its also why he wears a mitre, carries a crosier in the shape of a shepherd’s crook, and wears a pectoral cross.

I am unsure if that same relationship is highlighted or thought of in other orders in the same way. My impression is that it isn’t, though I could easily be wrong. I’ve never seen a Dominican prior or any other superior in a religious order dressed in this way or thought of in this way. The lineage between the Abbot and the Apostles really comes out when you read commentaries on St. Benedict’s life, in particular the one by Adalbert de Vogüé, OSB. The miracles he performed all tend to have a Biblical parallel which serves to tie him into the Apostolic tradition.

Also, as you are more than likely aware, the Abbot is also referred to in the Holy Rule as holding the place of Christ. Again, I am unsure if this same relationship between the superior and the members of the community is thought of in the same way in other religious orders. Again, my experience with the Dominicans suggests that it is not, but I am unfamiliar with how other orders think of this concept.
 
jwinch2 said:
Don’t forget Dominican. 🙂

I believe what he is referring to is that the Abbot, like the Bishop, is considered to be a successor to the Apostles. As noted, this is why you will see him giving blessings in the manner of a Bishop at the end of the Mass. Its also why he wears a mitre, carries a crosier in the shape of a shepherd’s crook, and wears a pectoral cross.

I am unsure if that same relationship is highlighted or thought of in other orders in the same way.
Click to expand...
You know, I only learned this recently, but it makes me feel better about my confirmation. I was actually confirmed by an abbot (bishop was busy, and we were a far-flung country parish). It was probably the second time I’d EVER seen a male religious in life and I thought he looked very comical at the time.
 
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