Trashing Luther

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MaryT777 said:
We could trade Luther quotes all day of course but I’ll post my favorite.

“We concede — as we must — that so much of what they say is true: that the papacy has God’s word and the office of the apostles, and that we have received Holy Scriptures, Baptism, the Sacrament, and the pulpit from them. What would we know of these if it were not for them?” (Martin Luther, Sermon on the Gospel of St. John, 1537)
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👍

If he have faith, the believer cannot be restrained. He betrays himself. He breaks out. He confesses and teaches this gospel to the people at the risk of life itself.

Martin Luther
 
Luther set in motion a movement that has left Christians divided and many times violently against one another for centuries. Division makes us weak therefore the results of his efforts I find extremely troubling and question the inspiration for them.

We would be much stronger united and that is why the Popes have have reached out and try to reconcile with all Christians. I can’t help but ask myself who gains the most by our division and what part did he play in it.
 
WT1 said:
Luther set in motion a movement that has left Christians divided and many times violently against one another for centuries. Division makes us weak therefore the results of his efforts I find extremely troubling and question the inspiration for them.

We would be much stronger united and that is why the Popes have have reached out and try to reconcile with all Christians. I can’t help but ask myself who gains the most by our division and what part did he play in it.
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Tell that to the Orthodox.

Is that what cradle Catholics are taught? To talk like this - I mean generally the thread not you personally. My God. Where is this coming from? It is hellish. Reminds me of Teresa of Avila’s cupboard - like we live there, 500 years later, no one has let us out.
 
WT1 said:
Luther set in motion a movement that has left Christians divided and many times violently against one another for centuries. Division makes us weak therefore the results of his efforts I find extremely troubling and question the inspiration for them.

We would be much stronger united and that is why the Popes have have reached out and try to reconcile with all Christians. I can’t help but ask myself who gains the most by our division and what part did he play in it.
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I would argue that the conditions which inspired Luther would have inspired another. His inspiration was none other than the corrupt Catholic Church. I think Luther in many ways actually succeeded in reforming the Roman Catholic Church. It just took him way longer than he thought it would. I don’t think Luther would have protested today’s RCC.
 
theropod said:
I would argue that the conditions which inspired Luther would have inspired another. His inspiration was none other than the corrupt Catholic Church. I think Luther in many ways actually succeeded in reforming the Roman Catholic Church. It just took him way longer than he thought it would. I don’t think Luther would have protested today’s RCC.
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This is correct. Read Dante sometime. (And to be fair, many other Catholics were saying pretty much the same thing Luther was, in some cases decades before him.)

And it did take a while didn’t it. But the RCC did get there - in the main.
 
theropod said:
I would argue that the conditions which inspired Luther would have inspired another. His inspiration was none other than the corrupt Catholic Church. I think Luther in many ways actually succeeded in reforming the Roman Catholic Church. It just took him way longer than he thought it would. I don’t think Luther would have protested today’s RCC.
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I agree. Everything that happened was hardly all Luther’s fault. Things were ready to explode by the time he first posted his 95 theses.
 
theropod said:
I would argue that the conditions which inspired Luther would have inspired another. His inspiration was none other than the corrupt Catholic Church. I think Luther in many ways actually succeeded in reforming the Roman Catholic Church. It just took him way longer than he thought it would. I don’t think Luther would have protested today’s RCC.
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He would still protest because of faulty theology.
 
Starwarsfan2 said:
He would still protest because of faulty theology.
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I’m sure that Luther would still object to the doctrine of papal infallibility on matters of faith and morals, something that was not defined dogmatically by the Catholic Church until 1870.
 
theropod said:
I would argue that the conditions which inspired Luther would have inspired another. His inspiration was none other than the corrupt Catholic Church. I think Luther in many ways actually succeeded in reforming the Roman Catholic Church. It just took him way longer than he thought it would. I don’t think Luther would have protested today’s RCC.
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Whether the church was corrupt or not is totally irrelevant . He split from the Church and postulated theology that was unheard of for the 1500 years since Christ founded the church
 
estesbob said:
Whether the church was corrupt or not is totally irrelevant . He split from the Church and postulated theology that was unheard of for the 1500 years since Christ founded the church
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So it doesn’t matter if the Church ever becomes corrupt?
 
estesbob said:
Whether the church was corrupt or not is totally irrelevant . He split from the Church and postulated theology that was unheard of for the 1500 years since Christ founded the church
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Not irrelevant, because Luther taught what the early church taught, the Roman Catholic Church could be argued to have left , not us .

Btw , let’s get back on topic .
 
Starwarsfan2 said:
Not irrelevant, because Luther taught what the early church taught, the Roman Catholic Church could be argued to have left , not us .

Btw , let’s get back on topic .
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So first the church got a right for a few years , then it got it wrong for over a millennia , then Luther came along and got it right.? That presupposes a pretty Inept god does it not
 
estesbob said:
So first the church got a right for a few years , then it got it wrong for over a millennia , then Luther came along and got it right.? That presupposes a pretty Inept god does it not
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I’ve always wondered why, if the truth resides in the Catholic Church, God left the Native Americans in the New World in paganism without access to the Catholic Church for 1500 years? 🤷
 
Thorolfr said:
I’ve always wondered why, if the truth resides in the Catholic Church, God left the Native Americans in the New World in paganism without access to the Catholic Church for 1500 years? 🤷
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So the truth is dependent on how many people it is revealed to .
 
estesbob said:
So the truth is dependent on how many people it is revealed to .
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But you were asking questions about the competence or ineptness of God. I don’t know the answers to these kinds of philosophical questions, but if God could leave large swaths of humanity in paganism for thousands of years through no fault of their own, why couldn’t He have left the Church in error for 1500 years? I don’t think there are any easy answers to these mysteries.
 
estesbob said:
So first the church got a right for a few years , then it got it wrong for over a millennia , then Luther came along and got it right.? That presupposes a pretty Inept god does it not
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No it presupposes sinful people, and the church taught truth for centuries.
 
Not to trash Luther, but he most certainly was not teaching what the early Church taught.

1.) The early Church taught justification by faith and works.
2.) The early Church used the Deuterocanons
3.) The early Church believed in seven sacraments.
4.) The early Church believed that the Mass is a sacrifice.
 
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