Trayvon Martin: 'Shoot first' law under scrutiny

[SouthCatholic]

I just want to point out that 911 dispatchers aren’t “officers” and even if they were we, as Americans, are not under any obligation to “obey” them.

True!

However, George Zimmerman is also not a police officer; therefore, Trayvon Martin was under no obligation to obey him or answer any of his questions. By chasing him down, it is Zimmerman who became the aggressor and Trayvon Martin was well within HIS rights to defend himself. You do not get to claim self-defense in an altercation you started. This is why people are ticked off that Zimmerman has not been charged.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

No kidding.

Remember the woman in the trailer with two guys breaking in? Didn’t the dispatcher asked the woman if she had a place where she could HIDE. This poor woman had an infant with her.

She would have been dead if she had listened to the dispatcher.

I would think the difference was that in the scenario with the woman with the trailor, they were breaking into her home. Besides she was told “do what you need to protect that baby.”

Trayvon Martin was walking, that’s all he was doing. Pretend for argument’s sake he had stolen something, It would have been petty theft, a police officer would have to announce to him that he was a police officer.

Zimmerman wasn’t an officer, and how could Martin determine who was following him?

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

True!

However, George Zimmerman is also not a police officer; therefore, Trayvon Martin was under no obligation to obey him or answer any of his questions. By chasing him down, it is Zimmerman who became the aggressor and Trayvon Martin was well within HIS rights to defend himself. You do not get to claim self-defense in an altercation you started. This is why people are ticked off that Zimmerman has not been charged.

I agree how could Martin know who Zimmerman was?

 

[L_piperatus]

The TV channels are showing these baby-faced pictures of a 12-year old Trayvon Martin and talking about George Zimmerman having had a prior arrest and resisting police in 2005.

The alternative media is talking about Trayvon Martin currently being almost 18-year old, a towering football player 6 ft 3’ tall, who was suspended from his Miami high school for 5 days when he was shot, and who was on top of Zimmerman punching him in the face, while Zimmerman was laying on the ground and screaming for help.

You practically have to play the detective, trying to piece together the full picture.

 

[ringil]

If you are new to this thread, perhaps you missed Zimmerman using “f-g coon” on the tape. After hearing that, I will not be convinced that this is not about race. No one has mentioned a rope and a tree or said he was guilty. It is the lack of charges that is discussed. But go ahead and judge away and perpetuate the irony.

I really want this case to go forward and Zimmerman to face justice.

I believe there certainly is a chance that race did play into this tragedy, however, it is hard to tell if he is saying “punk” or “coon”. It certainly could be coon- it’s just very difficult to tell.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

I really want this case to go forward and Zimmerman to face justice.

I believe there certainly is a chance that race did play into this tragedy, however, it is hard to tell if he is saying “punk” or “coon”. It certainly could be coon- it’s just very difficult to tell.

For me, its hard to tell whether he is saying “coon” or “goon”. Considering Martin was a 6’3" football player, goon is a real possibility.

I am going to stop fueling speculation about this case until more facts come out.

 

[ringil]

The TV channels are showing these baby-faced pictures of a 12-year old Trayvon Martin and talking about George Zimmerman having had a prior arrest and resisting police in 2005.

The alternative media is talking about Trayvon Martin currently being almost 18-year old, a towering football player 6 ft 3’ tall, who was suspended from his Miami high school for 5 days when he was shot, and who was on top of Zimmerman punching him in the face, while Zimmerman was laying on the ground and screaming for help.

You practically have to play the detective, trying to piece together the full picture.

Good point.

 

[Ghosty]

Your post is making me think that Zimmerman didn’t have his gun out. If he did, how in the world did he end up on the ground being beaten?

I don’t know about anyone else that carries concealed, but I don’t brandish my weapon. It stays neatly tucked away. That is until I feel the need to take it out, if I feel threatened. That has happened only once. I certainly wouldn’t walk up to someone that I perceived as a threat with my weapon still tucked away. Okay, I wouldn’t walk up to someone I perceived as a threat, BUT if I was going to walk up to someone that I thought was threatening, I would have my weapon out. That only makes sense.

So why didn’t he?

We don’t know if Zimmerman had his weapon out or not; it’s not unheard of for someone with a weapon drawn to end up getting beaten before they open fire. All we know is that a non-uniformed Zimmerman approached Martin at night after following him in his truck for some time. We know this because that’s what Zimmerman indicates in his 911 call.

Peace and God bless!

 

[pnewton]

You practically have to play the detective, trying to piece together the full picture.

Unfortuantely, you are right about this. Such is the media we have. Most of the time, there is a message that overlays and influences the way facts are presented.

 

[pnewton]

I must have missed where they have determined that he said that. I was under the impression that others heard other words like, goon or punk. Or am I wrong?

I can only speak to what I heard. I know what I heard. There was no “g” sound at the start of the word, and no “k” sound at the end. Maybe he tripped on a traffic cone, and was saying “cone” or stepped in raccoon droppings and was cursing them.

 

[pnewton]

I just want to point out that 911 dispatchers aren’t “officers” and even if they were we, as Americans, are not under any obligation to “obey” them.

No they are not. However, if one disobeys instructions from 911 dispatchers in a crisis, they take their liability into their own hands. That is why he is going to get fried on the lawsuit.

 

[mlund]

We’ll definitely have to see how the actual evidence plays out. Witness testimony puts Zimmerman on the ground with blood on the back of his head before the shooting.

Initiating a confrontation is stupid, but initiating violence is different. If Zimmerman got into a shouting match with Taylor accusing Taylor of being a burglar and Taylor laid him out, started putting the boots to his head, and Zimmerman pulled his gun and shot him from the ground its a completely different kettle of fish than Zimmerman running down Taylor, brandishing a gun at him, and then shooting him.

Things get very murky when battery with non-lethal force (fists) starts to look like it could become lethal force (kicking a man in the head while he’s down, choking someone, bashing someone’s head against the curb). That’s why we have a justice system. You can’t just presume someone guilty because they were armed, or innocent because they were on the losing end of a fight.

In all my time living in Arizona I’ve never heard a Hispanic person (Zimmerman is a Spanish-speaking Hispanic man, not some crazy banjo-picking Anglo like people seem to want to depict. Likewise Taylor is not a 12-year old boy, but a 6’3" football player.) refer to a Black person as a “coon” when racial epithets were flying.

• Marty Lund

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

No they are not. However, if one disobeys instructions from 911 dispatchers in a crisis, they take their liability into their own hands. That is why he is going to get fried on the lawsuit.

Disregards…not disobeys. 911 dispatcher don’t have any authority that we are obligated to obey.

 

[pnewton]

Disregards…not disobeys. 911 dispatcher don’t have any authority that we are obligated to obey.

Okay, disregards. The liability remains. Likewise, disregarding neighborhood watch principles of being the eyes of the police, but not the hands, as the National Sheriff’s Association established the program, is not disobedient, but one carries responsibility for one’s actions.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Okay, disregards. The liability remains. Likewise, disregarding neighborhood watch principles of being the eyes of the police, but not the hands, as the National Sheriff’s Association established the program, is not disobedient, but one carries responsibility for one’s actions.

Right. I am not sure that he is going to be charged with a criminal offense, everything seems very vague at this point as to whether there is intent or even a crime, according to the law. However, I agree that he is going to get hammered in a civil wrongful death suit and will probably loose, just based on what we know now.

 

[L_piperatus]

I can only speak to what I heard. I know what I heard. There was no “g” sound at the start of the word, and no “k” sound at the end. Maybe he tripped on a traffic cone, and was saying “cone” or stepped in raccoon droppings and was cursing them.

One light moment in an otherwise sad story. Those mischievous raccoons!

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Right. I am not sure that he is going to be charged with a criminal offense, everything seems very vague at this point as to whether there is intent or even a crime, according to the law. However, I agree that he is going to get hammered in a civil wrongful death suit and will probably loose, just based on what we know now.

His attorney in a civil suit will pick him clean. He doesn’t seem to be the sort of person who has enough with which to pay a lawyer to defend him.

 

[Godfollower]

Here’s what I’m trying to figure out: what possible conversations could they have had?

Reportedly Martin was saying on the phone that he was being followed and was trying to get away. Meanwhile, Zimmerman is out of his truck and following Martin despite the 911 dispatcher’s comments.

(It’s really a shame Martin didn’t call 911. With any luck, they could’ve said “Hold it, guys, you’re both talking to us, and everything’s cool”).

So: Zimmerman follows Martin. If he started the conversation, was it “Halt! Who goes there?” or more of an “Excuse me, can I help you?” Or maybe just “Hi! I’m with the neighborhood watch. Are you lost?”

Assuming good faith on Zimmerman’s part, I’m hard-pressed to think of anything reasonable Zimmerman would say that would provoke a response other than “Oh, thank God, I thought you were a mugger!” Obviously there are outrageous things he could’ve said that he should’ve known would provoke an attack – fighting words, etc. – that would lay the blame on him; but, assuming good faith, I can’t think of anything coming out of Zimmerman’s mouth that would’ve resulted in Martin dying.

On the other hand, if Martin started the conversation, it doesn’t matter what he said; Zimmerman could just respond by saying “Neighborhood Watch.” End of fear on both sides. Again, assuming good faith, I don’t see how Martin dies.

That leaves two possibilities: no conversation at all (one of them just up and attacks the other, in which case the one who started it is probably responsible), or one of them was acting in bad faith.

And all we have so far is Zimmerman poking his head in where it didn’t belong – a self-appointed “neighborhood watch guy” who clearly doesn’t like black people, carrying a weapon while “on patrol” and pursuing someone after being asked not to.

Yes, the police found blood on his head (which explains and probably justifies the lack of arrest at the time); but the injuries don’t sound like the kind you would get from a 17-year-old sitting on top of his prone body beating him with his fists; they’re too light.

Here’s where CSI comes in: if Zimmerman’s story is true, then the evidence should back up a point-blank shot from below, with serious injuries to Zimmerman from the “scared for his life” beating he was taking. If Zimmerman’s story is false, then the evidence should point to something else – e.g., a shot from further away, a more level bullet trajectory, and so on.

And for that, we’ll have to wait for the grand jury’s report.

 

[Lujack]

Well Obama didn’t wait long to jump on this. Told you I called distraction.

Obama, 15 minutes ago - ‘If I had a son…he would have looked like Trayvon’

God forbid he express some sympathy for the family.

"When I think about this boy, I think about my own kids, and I think every parent in America should be able to understand why it is absolutely imperative that we investigate every aspect of this…If I had a son he would look like Trayvon and I think they [his parents] are right to expect that all of us as Americans are going to take this with the seriousness it deserves.

I imagine most parents of any race would have a similar feeling-the ultimate nightmare scenario is for your child to go out on a walk and never come home. I imagine that most black parents are having even more intense feelings.

I’m not even a parent, but I have taken a walk after the sun has gone down up to the local 7/11 to buy a box of candy on occasion. Its a safe neighborhood-there’s very little crime. And I am white. And because I am white, nobody will ever wonder for even a second why I’m walking on a public sidewalk after the sun has gone down. I don’t have to worry about a Goetz or a Zimmerman shooting me for “looking suspicious” even if its cold and I’m in a coat or a hoodie. Nobody will even look at me funny. And this bothers me-all these things I don’t have to worry about are things that I would have to take into account if I looked like Trayvon Martin.

 

[mlund]

Its a safe neighborhood-there’s very little crime. And I am white. And because I am white, nobody will ever wonder for even a second why I’m walking on a public sidewalk after the sun has gone down.

Where I grew up, 13-17-year old white males were routinely surveyed or questioned by police officers for being out after dark on foot. They kept trying to put a curfew in effect too.

Even back in the 90s when I lived in Boston walking through Roxbury in broad daylight got me suspicious looks from the residents. They seemed mostly confused because a collared shirt and slacks indicated I probably wasn’t moving drugs.

I don’t have to worry about a Goetz or a Zimmerman shooting me for “looking suspicious” even if its cold and I’m in a coat or a hoodie.

Where I live it would totally depend on how old you looked. If you’re a male between the ages of 13 and 25 in a hooded sweatshirt after dark you’re totally suspected of being a delinquent - heck, even the Asian kids got that rap and almost nobody ever stereotypes Asian kids as being gangsters if they are a neighborhood minority.

For the case, however, I suspect they got into a fist-fight. Zimmerman was way out-matched, got knocked down and hit his head on the ground, then pulled his gun and shot Taylor right then and there from the ground.

I’m dubious that Zimmerman just walked up and executed the young man.

I’m also dubious that Taylor knocked Zimmerman down, got on top of him, and started trying to bust his skull open on the pavement and somehow Zimmerman miraculously got his gun free and shot Taylor while having his brains dashed out.

• Marty Lund