Trayvon Martin: 'Shoot first' law under scrutiny

[Charlotte408]

Did the police say this to the media? It is my understanding that they didn’t arrest the shooter because Florida law protects people who shoot other folks as long as they say that they felt that they were in danger.

Maybe a witness did.

It makes sense that they wouldn’t arrest a man claiming self defense if he had just gotten beat up - that seems to be a case of ‘being in danger’.

**IMHO - I call distraction. **

news.yahoo.com/video/orlandowesh-16122564/sanford-police-speak-out-in-trayvon-martin-case-28640523.html#crsl=%252Fvideo%252Forlandowesh-16122564%252Fsanford-police-speak-out-in-trayvon-martin-case-28640523.html

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Maybe a witness did.

The magic word is “maybe.” I’ll wait to see how the investigation goes.

 

[Charlotte408]

The magic word is “maybe.” I’ll wait to see how the investigation goes.

I don’t believe in magic.

The shooting happened just after 7 p.m. Sunday evening on Twin Trees Lane. A man who witnessed part of the altercation contacted authorities.

“The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, ‘Help! Help!’ and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911,” said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John.

John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot.

“And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point.”

Read more: myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1prrZtVOS

 

[pnewton]

Maybe a witness did.

It makes sense that they wouldn’t arrest a man claiming self defense if he had just gotten beat up - that seems to be a case of ‘being in danger’.

**IMHO - I call distraction. **

news.yahoo.com/video/orlandowesh-16122564/sanford-police-speak-out-in-trayvon-martin-case-28640523.html#crsl=%252Fvideo%252Forlandowesh-16122564%252Fsanford-police-speak-out-in-trayvon-martin-case-28640523.html

An interesting twist. If this turns out to be true, it could be that the worst charge would be involuntary manslaughter. Oh, and still Zimmerman is facing a nasty civil suit.

 

[Charlotte408]

I’m just trippin’ out on how everyone is so angry thinkin’ he’s not going to go to court over this? Thats crazy. Obviously going to face trial. I mean, this is America only an doof would think he wouldn’t; hence Al Sharpton and his ‘Million Hoodie March’.

 

[pnewton]

I’m just trippin’ out on how everyone is so angry thinkin’ he’s not going to go to court over this?

I do think there is a lot of impatience over this. The evidence is going to the Grand Jury. This is being investigated as a crime. If there is sufficient evidence to procede, it will procede. Even then, it is up to a jury. That is how things work in America. No justice, no peace? Are we seriously suggesting that we bring back lynching? That is the only guarantee of punishment, though not of justice.

 

[L_piperatus]

:ehh:

No, the Des Moines Register, like many news outlets in the US, only maintain their online stories for a set period of time. In the case of the Des Moines Register, this means 30 days. Pruning the online stories to only the most recent is a way of keeping expenses down.

If, however, you are willing to pay for access to an older story, the newspaper has contracted their archives out to a third party. Here is a link to buy the Daniel P. Finney article you cited.
pqasb.pqarchiver.com/desmoinesregister/access/2128456011.html?FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Sep+3%2C+2010&author=DANIEL+P+FINNEY&pub=Des+Moines+Register&edition=&startpage=B.2&desc=Police+spokeswoman+moved+after+remarks+on+fairgrounds+fights

Dale, first of all, thank you for correcting me - I was not aware they remove all their online stories after 30 days. It’s a good lesson for me - I better do some research before jumping to conclusions that assume a sinister motive from the part of the media!

Other than that, you Sir rock! I really admire how well informed and civil you are in various discussions, I almost said we need to clone you, but then I remembered that according to the Catholic Church’s teaching, cloning human persons is illegal!

And what does any of this have to do with Trayvon’s death? The existence of racism and racist attitudes or incidents anywhere, is wrong. That has no bearing on the continuing problem of a morally unacceptable practice which places young lives at risk, namely racial profiling.

I was answering this comment:

With all due respect, but why are you, and other posters, keen to play colour-blind in a case where race is clearly relevant? It’s almost though “race” is a dirty word.

I’m genuinely puzzled about how assigning racial motives work in this country and whether there is a consensus out there that could be acceptable to all parties.

In the Beat Whitey Night case, Iowa police came to the conclusion that there was no demonstrable racial element to the incident. I also tried to google whether the Reverend Al Sharpton, and The Black Congressional Caucus, made a statement regarding Beat Whitey Night, but found nothing.

Yet, both Rev. Al Sharpton and the Black Congressional Caucus are very vocal in the case of Trayvon Martin’s death, and they do allege that this was a hate crime motivated by racial hatred.

So, I’m genuinely puzzled, is there some objective standard to deciding when is race involved, and if there is such a standard, what is it?

Regarding a number of news reports saying that George Zimmerman used a racial slur, I looked up the dictionary definition of the word “goon” and this is what I found:

A silly, foolish, or eccentric person

A bully or thug, esp. one hired to terrorize or do away with opposition

(from google.com/search?hl=en&biw=1920&bih=947&q=goon&tbs=dfn:1&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=AGhrT8T9KJDVgAe2itm9Bg&sqi=2&ved=0CCcQkQ4 )

I don’t understand it. How do we now Zimmerman was racially motivated, and what’s the objective standard for deciding it?

 

[Seamus_L]

While I haven’t turned up anything conclusive, I have seen articles on some conservative sites that claim Zimmerman had been knocked down and punched by Martin, and was bleeding from the nose and head when police arrive. If this is true, and I’m not saying it is, it could well be the reason that Zimmerman hasen’t been charged.

 

[L_piperatus]

I admit I haven’t heard the uncensored call, and every version I’ve heard has that portion bleeped or silenced. I’m basing this purely on other people’s reports, and I’ve heard reasonable people say they heard different things.

EDIT: Found an uncensored version of the call, and I must admit I can’t tell what he’s saying. Could be either one to my hears. We need audio experts to slow it down and filter it, IMO.

Peace and God bless!

I listened to the uncensored tape and heard “f—ing goons”. Now I don’t now, is that a racial slur? I had to look it up in various dictionaries because I didn’t really now what it means, and it seems like it generally denotes an aggressive person or enforcer, even a hockey player in this role, but the dictionary definitions did not mention it being a racial slur. I wonder though, are the dictionaries missing something?

 

[Ghosty]

I listened to the uncensored tape and heard “f—ing goons”. Now I don’t now, is that a racial slur? I had to look it up in various dictionaries because I didn’t really now what it means, and it seems like it generally denotes an aggressive person or enforcer, even a hockey player in this role, but the dictionary definitions did not mention it being a racial slur. I wonder though, are the dictionaries missing something?

Here’s an example of the problem we face in determining what he actually said… I hope I’m not violating forum rules by saying that the racial slur in question is “coon”, not “goon”. It’s extremely derogatory, arguably moreso than the n-word, and if he did say it then my view is that race was a motivating factor.

Peace and God bless!

 

[L_piperatus]

From what I understand Zimmerman approached Trayvon, Trayvon got mouthy, the two started fighting, Trayvon got the upperhand (a neighbor saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman punching him) and Zimmerman pulled out his gun ‘in self defense’.

But no one is talking about Zimmerman being beat up

Charlotte, I had no idea of this part of the story, but now I uncovered this - quote from freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2861944/posts :

I heard on Fox news last night that when the cops arrived on the scene Zimmerman had a bloody nose and a wound on his head. Maybe the black kid assaulted Zimmerman. Maybe Zimmerman had to defend himself because the kid beat him and could take the gun.

Also from same website:

“Dude. He killed a kid walking down the street”

Not so. He killed a “kid” who was 6ft 3 and had him down on his back punching him in the face according to an eye witness. Try to keep up.

“Zimmerman was justified in using deadly force according to Florida’s STAND YOUR GROUND LAW because Martin was on top of him beating him in the face.

According to this eye witness quoted in this article Zimmerman was getting the worst of it and calling for help once the fighting started.

“The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, ‘Help! Help!’ and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911,” said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John.

John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot.

“And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point.”

Read more: myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1phFMGCu4

That is why the cops didnt arrest him at the scene after hearing this witness account, observing his bloody nose and his bleeding from the back of he head and grass stains on the back of his shirt. Considering that he had a concealed carry permit, was injured in the scuffle, was in fear for his live, and reasonably thought that Martin was a criminal, The cops let him go after cuffing him when the local prosecutors said there was not enough evidence for manslaughter conviction under Florida’s Stand Your Ground Law.

The witness said it was Zimmerman who was screaming for help and police detectives even ran the 9-11 tapes of the screaming by the “kids” father and the father said the screams were NOT from his son.

news.yahoo.com/video/orlandowesh-16122564/sanford-police-speak-out-in-trayvon-martin-case-28640523.html

Besides Martin is not the angelic 12 year old pictured in almost all the news stories but was almost 18, six foot three, and had been suspended from High School in Miami so he went to Sanford to visit his dad. If you listen to the 9-11 tapes, the kid approached Zimmerman when he was sitting in his truck as a possible intimidation tactic. It is also possible that the kid was not a terrified babe in the woods as portrayed but regarded Zimmerman following him as a white man dissing him and he attacked the watch captain without warning.

news.yahoo.com/photos/neighborhood-watchman-killed-trayvon-martin-ignored-neighborhood-watch-photo-201122767

Granted, Zimmerman was wrong to follow the kid but IF the kid attacked him he is protected from a manslaughter charge by the SYG Law.However,civil lawsuits against him and the housing complex are another matter.

Lets have a Grand Jury review the evidence and then arrest him if the evidence showed he attacked the kid first.

 

[L_piperatus]

Here’s an example of the problem we face in determining what he actually said… I hope I’m not violating forum rules by saying that the racial slur in question is “coon”, not “goon”. It’s extremely derogatory, arguably moreso than the n-word, and if he did say it then my view is that race was a motivating factor.

Peace and God bless!

Ah, thanks!

 

[pnewton]

If all the facts are as Zimmerman said, he is still toast. One can not chase someone down, provoke a fight, then shoot the other person because he is losing. This would lessen the charge, but he is still responsible.

What about the young man? Does he not also have the right to self-defense to some thug chasing him down and attacking him? Does he have to give up his Skittles to this late night candy robber, or does “stand your ground” only apply to white people?

Perhaps here we see the flaw of this law. If both parties stand their ground, it becomes a fight to the death.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

“Dude. He killed a kid walking down the street”

Not so. He killed a “kid” who was 6ft 3 and had him down on his back punching him in the face according to an eye witness.
​

Speculation; not yet proven…

Besides Martin is not the angelic 12 year old pictured in almost all the news stories but was almost 18, six foot three, and had been suspended from High School in Miami so he went to Sanford to visit his dad.

Immaterial

If you listen to the 9-11 tapes, the kid approached Zimmerman when he was sitting in his truck as a possible intimidation tactic.

Speculation.

It is also possible that the kid was not a terrified babe in the woods as portrayed but regarded Zimmerman following him as a white man dissing him and he attacked the watch captain without warning.

Speculation. Drawing a conclusion without proof.

Granted, Zimmerman was wrong to follow the kid but IF the kid attacked him he is protected from a manslaughter charge by the SYG Law.However,civil lawsuits against him and the housing complex are another matter.

Big IF. Speculation. As to the civil lawsuit, Mr. Zimmerman is going to have to pay no small amount defending himself in civil court. Good luck finding a lawyer to defend him. He’s going to wish he had just duked it out with the kid (if the scenario was as described) instead of having gone for his gun.

Let’s have the Grand Jury review the evidence and then arrest him if the evidence showed he attacked the kid first.

No IF. The Grand Jury can use whatever grounds it chooses to have charges brought against him.​

 

[seekerz]

The only thing we have from George Zimmerman regarding race is the 911 call, and it was the 911 operator who asked the race of the “suspect”. George Zimmerman described Trayvon for quite some time without mentioning his race, and had to be asked as standard protocol with 911 calls in order to identify the “suspect” when the police arrive.

If Zimmerman had called 911 and said “there’s a Black kid in my neighborhood” you’d have a point, but he didn’t even offer up that information without prodding from the 911 operator.

Peace and God bless!

Here is George’s friend and neighbor: youtube.com/watch?v=rV-kHFZZ85g (in another part of the same interview, which is not included in this recording, the friend claims that there were 8 burglaries, most of which - not all - were carried out by young black males)

Here are George’s calls: youtube.com/watch?v=a26fn7UYu34 (he seems to think he has a right to know what every young black male in the area is doing; he doesn’t - this is AMERICA)

 

[seekerz]

Perhaps here we see the flaw of this law. If both parties stand their ground, it becomes a fight to the death.

Exactly: Zimmerman claims he felt threatened by someone who obviously felt threatened by him. All he had to do was be a grown up and walk away.

Glad I don’t live in a neighborhood where it’s a crime to walk while black.

 

[seekerz]

Charlotte, I had no idea of this part of the story, but now I uncovered this - quote from freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2861944/posts :

I heard on Fox news last night that when the cops arrived on the scene Zimmerman had a bloody nose and a wound on his head. Maybe the black kid assaulted Zimmerman. Maybe Zimmerman had to defend himself because the kid beat him and could take the gun.

Also from same website:

“Dude. He killed a kid walking down the street”

Not so. He killed a “kid” who was 6ft 3 and had him down on his back punching him in the face according to an eye witness. Try to keep up.

“Zimmerman was justified in using deadly force according to Florida’s STAND YOUR GROUND LAW because Martin was on top of him beating him in the face.

According to this eye witness quoted in this article Zimmerman was getting the worst of it and calling for help once the fighting started.

“The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, ‘Help! Help!’ and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911,” said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John.

John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot.

“And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point.”

Read more: myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1phFMGCu4

That is why the cops didnt arrest him at the scene after hearing this witness account, observing his bloody nose and his bleeding from the back of he head and grass stains on the back of his shirt. Considering that he had a concealed carry permit, was injured in the scuffle, was in fear for his live, and reasonably thought that Martin was a criminal, The cops let him go after cuffing him when the local prosecutors said there was not enough evidence for manslaughter conviction under Florida’s Stand Your Ground Law.

The witness said it was Zimmerman who was screaming for help and police detectives even ran the 9-11 tapes of the screaming by the “kids” father and the father said the screams were NOT from his son.

news.yahoo.com/video/orlandowesh-16122564/sanford-police-speak-out-in-trayvon-martin-case-28640523.html

Besides Martin is not the angelic 12 year old pictured in almost all the news stories but was almost 18, six foot three, and had been suspended from High School in Miami so he went to Sanford to visit his dad. If you listen to the 9-11 tapes, the kid approached Zimmerman when he was sitting in his truck as a possible intimidation tactic. It is also possible that the kid was not a terrified babe in the woods as portrayed but regarded Zimmerman following him as a white man dissing him and he attacked the watch captain without warning.

news.yahoo.com/photos/neighborhood-watchman-killed-trayvon-martin-ignored-neighborhood-watch-photo-201122767

Granted, Zimmerman was wrong to follow the kid but IF the kid attacked him he is protected from a manslaughter charge by the SYG Law.However,civil lawsuits against him and the housing complex are another matter.

Lets have a Grand Jury review the evidence and then arrest him if the evidence showed he attacked the kid first.

Why would the kid be in the wrong if he attacked Zimmerman first? Maybe he felt threatened by Zimmerman - I probably would have too. Does the stand you ground law state prevent the person defending himself from throwing the first punch?

 

[seekerz]

While I haven’t turned up anything conclusive, I have seen articles on some conservative sites that claim Zimmerman had been knocked down and punched by Martin, and was bleeding from the nose and head when police arrive. If this is true, and I’m not saying it is, it could well be the reason that Zimmerman hasen’t been charged.

“Conservative” sites that don’t allow young black males the benefit of “stand your ground”? If a white kid were followed at night by an adult male, would he not be justified in considering himself threatened or is the law only for knuckleheads with guns?

 

[seekerz]

From what I understand Zimmerman approached Trayvon, Trayvon got mouthy, the two started fighting, Trayvon got the upperhand (a neighbor saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman punching him) and Zimmerman pulled out his gun ‘in self defense’.

But no one is talking about Zimmerman being beat up

Trayvon “got mouthy”…that is so condescending, I don’t even need your browser history to figure the rest out.

 

[L_piperatus]

Here’s some data from another article - quote from examiner.com/charleston-conservative-in-charleston-sc/zimmerman-was-on-the-ground-being-punched-when-he-shot-trayvon-martin :

Zimmerman was on the ground being punched when he shot Trayvon Martin
Kyle Rogers
Charleston Conservative Examiner

Almost all of the news items about George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin contains a combination of false statements, opinions presented as facts, transparent distortions, and a complete absence of some of the most relevant details. The media also fills their articles with outdated baby-faced pictures of Trayvon. Very few include that he was a towering 6’2” football player.

All the way back on February 27th, the local Orlando Fox station interviewed the witness who dialed 911. Almost none of the thousands of articles since have mentioned any of the details described by the witness. Some, however, have attributed false statements to this witness. On March 16th, the Sanford police department released new details to the Orlando Sentinel. Once again, these details have been ignored or changed by the media.

1. The witness reports that George Zimmerman was on the ground and Trayvon is on top of him punching him.
2. The witness says that George Zimmerman was screaming and yelling for help.
3. Police arrive and find Zimmerman bleeding on his face and the back of his head. He also has had grass stains on his back. All this confirms the story told by Zimmerman and the witness.
4. Police play the 911 tape for Trayvon Martin’s father, who tells police that the voice screaming is not the voice of his son.

The media also characterizes Trayvon as a “model student.” In fact, he was under a five day suspension when the shooting took place. That is why he was staying at a house so far from his school on a school night. A laywer for Trayvon’s family has blocked access to his school records. However, you have to do something pretty bad to get suspended for five days.

Now that you know the suppressed facts of the case, you can for form a better more balanced opinion. Maybe you still think Zimmerman was wrong to pull the trigger. However, I think you will come to the conclusion that the “mainstream” clearly is pushing an agenda. Even when they have to grossly alter and adjust a story to fit that agenda.

Continue reading on Examiner.com Zimmerman was on the ground being punched when he shot Trayvon Martin - Charleston Charleston Conservative | Examiner.com examiner.com/charleston-conservative-in-charleston-sc/zimmerman-was-on-the-ground-being-punched-when-he-shot-trayvon-martin#ixzz1psOBe72k