Trayvon Martin: 'Shoot first' law under scrutiny

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Lujack said:
Why should the benefit of the doubt go to Zimmerman and not to Martin? Because Martin is dead and can’t defend himself? Because he was a teenager?

And Zimmerman could have been mistaken. His belief could have been unreasonable without lying.
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Exactly.
 
Lujack said:
Why should the benefit of the doubt go to Zimmerman and not to Martin? Because Martin is dead and can’t defend himself? Because he was a teenager?

And Zimmerman could have been mistaken. His belief could have been unreasonable without lying.
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But what evidence do you have that says he was wrong in thinking the kid looked suspicious?
 
Lujack said:
Why should the benefit of the doubt go to Zimmerman and not to Martin? Because Martin is dead and can’t defend himself? Because he was a teenager?

And Zimmerman could have been mistaken. His belief could have been unreasonable without lying.
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Until the evidence is laid out against Zimmerman, which it doesn’t so far, and a case can be made to prove he’s lying and guilty of the charges that haven’t been brought against him, he is as innocent and free as you or I.

I’d have to be pretty far gone to bother to call 911 and report someone acting like they were on drugs, and they were just walking down the street.

Giving Martin the benefit of the doubt means you’ve convicted Zimmerman already. As I’ve asked before, will you overturn your own sentence of Zimmerman if this is thrown out?

Before you respond with, “Do you want him to go to trial?” I’ve said before, if I was Z I’d be begging for the trial.
 
Lujack said:
Why should the benefit of the doubt go to Zimmerman and not to Martin? Because Martin is dead and can’t defend himself? Because he was a teenager?

And Zimmerman could have been mistaken. His belief could have been unreasonable without lying.
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Exactly.

I sympathize with the person who had to opt out of this thread, because so many arguments are lacking in Christian charity towards the victim. The arguments seem almost to celebrate this killing.

There’s really not much to say on this subject except We Demand Justice, and the killer being released uncharged after only a couple hours of investigation, in such a murky and suspicious case as this, is not justice.
 
Bocephus said:
Eh…you might want to rethink that.

Evidence that Z is wrong, is evidence that Z is guilty.

Without evidence against Z, he’s a free man whether you like it or not.
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Z might have thought that every black male in the neighborhood - with a HOODIE on -
looked suspicious (to him). Recent burglaries were ascribed to black males. If that
view governed Z’s perceptions he could have been in error in his perceptions while not guilty of following and killing the stranger on purpose. Yet he did fiollow and kill him.
 
Dawnia said:
It is if you want to be taken seriously.🤷
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Read Post 961.
This is a THIRD thread on same subject
so Post is really Post (3)961.
Zimmerman may have had false suspicions.
No one needs to prove that.
 
Lujack said:
English common law is the basis of American jurisprudence. John Marshall, the first chief justice of the Supreme Court, relied very heavily on it.

Yes, but unlike Louisiana, Florida uses English Common Law as the basis of its laws. Louisiana uses the Code Napoleon.

It is also the source of most other principles of American jurisprudence.

Are you really arguing that the American Revolution was fought out of a desire to avoid the duty to retreat?

Anyway, the Founders of the Revolution were first trying to claim their rights as Englishmen before switching to a demand for independence, and the influence of English legal scholars like Blackstone is visible in the Federalist Papers, the Constitution, and the rulings of Justice John Marshall. So English Common Law is with us from the get-go.

This is your interpretation. Martin’s family is claiming that Zimmerman began the altercation and Martin defended himself, in which case Zimmerman would be in the wrong. He was already in the wrong for getting out of his vehicle and following Trayvon Martin.

I don’t care about “most of you”, because “most of you” didn’t unlawfully shoot Trayvon Martin.

Anyway, I am trying to look at this topic through the lens of Catholic grace and truth, exercising charity and mercy in my regard of both sides. So, my anger at culture war attacks on American gun rights has much abated.

God loves you,
Don.
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This case has nothing to do with gun rights and everything to do with the right of Trayvon Martin to exist without being shot down in the street.

Hi, again,

Well, maybe it’s time that American law replaced English common law in this nation.

No, sir, I’m arguing that the American Revolution was fought to:
  1. Become free of all English law, other than that chosen by the revolutionaries.
  2. To gain freedom of religion.
  3. To escape taxation without representation.
  4. To enjoy profits from America’s bounty.
  5. As well as all the other reasons taught in different levels of schooling.
The Martin family members were not present at the shooting, so how could they know what happened?

Trayvon Martin was lawfully shot.

No. This case has to do with and orchestrated attack by media, FBI and DOJ (witch hunt) against the Florida “Stand your Ground” (NOT “shoot first”) law. Trayvon’s death is incidental to the powers that be who want to dismantle Florida’s laws. That young man’s tragic death is just a pretext to some powers that be.

God loves you,
Don
 
Lujack said:
I am. And my anonymous header actually does show my religion. I choose to post anonymously because there is no need for people on here to know my real name. Although for all you know my last name might be Lujack.

That’s right. If people simply accepted what the police said was the end of the story, the story would have been over. But it seems from a lot of the evidence that the police work done in this case was somewhat shoddy.

So it is unCatholic to feel that cases should be investigated further?
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Hi, again,

Thank you, Lujack, for discussing yourself with me.

Who complained about the police work? IE, who started this witch hunt?

No, it’s not unCatholic. But it is uncharitable to the Sanford PD to reinvestigate.

God loves you,
Don
 
donsnow said:
Trayvon Martin was lawfully shot.

**Sorry, don. There is no way to state that without reservation.
There is an investigation underway concerning that. **

No. This case has to do with and orchestrated attack by media, FBI and DOJ (witch hunt) against the Florida “Stand your Ground” (NOT “shoot first”) law. Trayvon’s death is incidental to the powers that be who want to dismantle Florida’s laws. That young man’s tragic death is just a pretext to some powers that be.

God loves you,
Don
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donsnow said:
Hi, again,

Thank you, Lujack, for discussing yourself with me.

Who complained about the police work? IE, who started this witch hunt?

No, it’s not unCatholic. But it is uncharitable to the Sanford PD to reinvestigate.
God loves you,
Don
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I have not heard the Sanford PD say so.
In fact, the Snaford PD asked for an arrest warrant!
 
Lujack said:
I am saying that many old English principles have been incorporated into American law, and that if you stripped out every principle of English law left int the American legal system, it would fall apart entirely.

The original law, yes. But they use a legal code today that is rooted in English Common Law.
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Lujack,

You’re entitled to your opinion and I’m entitled to my opinion. Whether or not America’s legal system would fall apart without the English common law contents remains speculative.

I don’t know about Spanish common and Canon law being cast out of Florida and our American SouthWest. Could you provide a link to your source for that statement?

God loves you,
Don
 
donsnow said:
No, it’s not unCatholic. But it is uncharitable to the Sanford PD to reinvestigate.

God loves you,
Don
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Why? For the life of me I can not figure out why it is uncharitable to attempt to find the truth.
 
donsnow said:
George Zimmerman’s “ground” was as neighborhood watchman.
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There is no legal position in a neighborhood watchman. He had no authority in this position other than to report and watch. When he left his vehicle, this position was abbrogated.
As far as “using a weapon if threatened” is a strawman argument. I have worked armed off and on in cab driving and for two different Texas security companies. I worked with other armed cab drivers and then with other armed uniformed security guards
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Then you should be well aware of the limitations of those who are not law enforcement. I wish Zimmerman knew his limitations. A young man would be alive today. I do not wish to argue against another’s experience, but rest assured my law enforcement experience is sufficient for me to rely on my own opinions in such matters.
 
pnewton said:
There is no legal position in a neighborhood watchman. He had no authority in this position other than to report and watch. When he left his vehicle, this position was abbrogated.
Then you should be well aware of the limitations of those who are not law enforcement. I wish Zimmerman knew his limitations. A young man would be alive today.
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Quite so.
 
catharina said:
Z might have thought that every black male in the neighborhood - with a HOODIE on -
looked suspicious (to him). Recent burglaries were ascribed to black males. If that
view governed Z’s perceptions he could have been in error in his perceptions while not guilty of following and killing the stranger on purpose. Yet he did fiollow and kill him.
Click to expand...
Possibly, but not every black man in a hoodie acts like he’s on drugs. Although Zimmerman didn’t detail Martins behavior, he did attribute an unusual description to it. That would lead one to believe Martin wasn’t just another black man in a hoodie. Remember, this is a mixed race neighborhood, apparently Martin wasn’t the only black person Z has seen in that area.
 
Jerry_Miah said:
Exactly.

I sympathize with the person who had to opt out of this thread, because so many arguments are lacking in Christian charity towards the victim. The arguments seem almost to celebrate this killing.

There’s really not much to say on this subject except We Demand Justice, and the killer being released uncharged after only a couple hours of investigation, in such a murky and suspicious case as this, is not justice.
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Good evening, Jerry,

I doubt that what you want is Justice.

I can see very little of Catholic charity and mercy toward George Zimmerman. Both Zimmerman and Martin should receive the same amount of Catholic charity and mercy. That would be justice, in my opinion…

God loves you,
Don
 
Bocephus said:
Possibly, but not every black man in a hoodie acts like he’s on drugs. Although Zimmerman didn’t detail Martins behavior, he did attribute an unusual description to it. That would lead one to believe Martin wasn’t just another black man in a hoodie. Remember, this is a mixed race neighborhood, apparently Martin wasn’t the only black person Z has seen in that area.
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OR — maybe Zimmerman was hot on the hunt,
too engrossed in his “preceptions” to be fair about them.

What in heaven’s name does “acts like he’s on drugs” mean to Zimmerman?
That has not been explained in any reasonable way to anyone.

There might be days when strangers saw me stumbling/limping around
from rheumatoid arthritis but THEY decide I’m acting like I’m on drugs.

Thanks - but no thanks.
 
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