Tredentine Mass Is Our Right

[cothrige]

Perhaps the Holy Father does, perhaps he doesn’t. He is certainly in a position to act on what he believes best. I guess when the Holy Father acts, we will know what he thinks.

I believe that he has acted, and firmly. His will has also apparently been revealed by a prelate close to him and with authority to speak on this subject. The Pope certainly has clearly articulated that the EF is a spiritual good for the Church and it is his will that it be available to people, and it hardly seems likely he only has in mind select small groups. If we don’t try to make these spiritual goods available as widely as possible, and instead wait to be commanded to do that, then how have we done right? If we reject spiritual blessings because they have not been commanded have we really shown ourselves to be good children of the Church?

 

[CassiusLonginus]

Perhaps the Holy Father does, perhaps he doesn’t. He is certainly in a position to act on what he believes best. I guess when the Holy Father acts, we will know what he thinks.

One would think he does. His actions are pretty clear…Make the enemies of the TLM within the episcopate irrelevant. Under JPII the ‘wide and generous’ indult (or whatever) required permission from the bishops, under BXVI no such permission is required and he made it quite clear that the EF has never been abrogated and can be celebrated by any priest, contrary to popular belief. Now if only bishops would stop it with the ‘latin’ tests.

 

[pnewton]

One would think he does. His actions are pretty clear…

i know he believes in making it available. I am glad of that. I believe priests and bishop should minister to all the faithful in every way possible. I was referring to making it mandatory everywhere, like some have suggested.

 

[ethelzguy]

Wow, deacon, it’s wonderful to hear an OF person say that. Now if only catharina and ethelzguy would realize what you have. Thank you for your candor.

I think you misunderstand me. I don’t particularly like “guitar” Masses, but I respect the pastor’s authority to have such. I don’t particularly like LifeTeen Masses, but I respect the pastor’s authority to have such.

Personally, I prefer the NO, with “old school” music played on a pipe organ. But I respect the fact that I am not in authority to make those decisions.

That being said, I could never, ever muster up the sanctimonious attitude to march into my pastor’s office and “demand” my right to anything.

As the old saying goes, your rights end at my nose. While a TLM fan may wish to assert their right to a TLM, does that give them the right to impose on an entire parish? If a parish has 4 jam-packed Masses every weekend, by one priest, (three in English and one in Spanish), does somebody demanding their right to a TLM trump everyone else in those 4 existing Masses?

What constitutes a “stable” group? Two? Twenty-Two? A Hundred and Two?

I don’t think it’s practical for each parish to just drop everything and reshuffle the Mass schedule to accomodate a TLM if half-a-dozen people ask for it.

 

[AlexV]

In other words, mediocrity reigns supreme. We can always find room for that “Guitar Mass”, but the TLM…get ready for a huge laundry list of excuses.

 

[pnewton]

I don’t think it’s practical for each parish to just drop everything and reshuffle the Mass schedule to accomodate a TLM if half-a-dozen people ask for it.

No, but if one had half a dozen men who wanted the TLM that had voiced that desire, the priest should accommadate them one occasion and see if interest increases, or more people come forward with the same desire. that would be pastoral and offer a reasonable compromise. If enough start to desire it after and occasional offering, then change the smallest Mass to the TLM and go up (or down) from there.

 

[ethelzguy]

No, but if one had half a dozen men who wanted the TLM that had voiced that desire, the priest should accommadate them one occasion and see if interest increases, or more people come forward with the same desire. that would be pastoral and offer a reasonable compromise. If enough start to desire it after and occasional offering, then change the smallest Mass to the TLM and go up (or down) from there.

I won’t disagree at all. “Voicing desire” is however, different than “demanding ones right”.

 

[LilyM]

No, but if one had half a dozen men who wanted the TLM that had voiced that desire, the priest should accommadate them one occasion and see if interest increases, or more people come forward with the same desire. that would be pastoral and offer a reasonable compromise. If enough start to desire it after and occasional offering, then change the smallest Mass to the TLM and go up (or down) from there.

Of course. He should drop everything, all the many needs of his hundreds of other parishioners, and either go learn the TLM so that he can say it (which takes just a little longer than the half-an-hour an extremely lucky priest might be able to spare in a day) or locate (not usually easy at all) a priest who a) knows the TLM ad b) is near enough to the parish, or willing enough to travel and c) with enough free time to come and say it (after all, he’s probably equally busy).

Jesus advocated going after the lost sheep, of course, but you can’t presume that people are lost without the TLM. IMHO they would be equally if not more lost without the marryings, buryings, baptisings, confessions and anointings that the priest would be neglecting to devote his time to the TLM demands of 12 parishioners.

 

[EasterJoy]

Please excuse me intruding but I am curious about something. I think what you say here makes sense, and of course all people should be willing to consider what demands are placed on both the ordinary and the priests. But I cannot help but wonder why it is so impossible for priests, who undertake study to be able to offer the sacraments, to be able to say two forms of Mass? Why does this really require so much of anybody that we cannot imagine being able to offer both?

It seems to me that the local parish priest must be able to pray the breviary, the Mass, Benediction, Stations of the Cross, as well as be able to celebrate all the other sacraments and rituals of the Church including baptisms, confirmations, marriages, blessings of peoples, places and objects and so on and so on. On top of this most priests celebrate a number of Masses during the week and on Sunday. Why would one of these Masses being in an alternative form which is equally valid be so much of a burden considering that it would be the very vocation of the priest to be able to celebrate Masses? If it is such a burden or demand then why are all these other many things not being denied for the same reason?

Please understand that I am actually not trying to be argumentative, and I am not suggesting that we should treat our priests and bishops like beasts of burden. However, I am just not convinced that being able to say Mass is such a remarkable demand that in most or many cases it should be expected not to be provided.

Well, it is a demand, as you know. I know a priest who is near retirement and who was quite adept at the TLM–and who really did not like it when he had to switch over to the current OF, so we are not talking Fr. Guitar Mass–told me he doesn’t even know if he could do a Mass in Latin any more. The priests ordained since have no experience at this whatsoever.

Yes, they could learn. But to be honest, we have more of a desire for priests who are willing to learn to celebrate Mass in the Spanish vernacular than in Latin. More of the faithful want that.

Again, I am not talking about not offering the TLM. I am talking about some literally exhausted priests, priests who are taking on parishes of their own far sooner after their ordination than in the past. They are stretched very thin. It is not reasonable to require every one of them to offer a form of the Mass so that a few people don’t have to drive a few miles, when what we need is more priests who can hear confessions in Spanish.

I’m just trying to be adamant here, not angry. Keep in mind that I live in Oregon. It is a state with a lot of rural areas. I grew up three miles from church, but more like ten miles from a grocery store or a gas station. The faithful are not going to buy the idea that anybody has some right to walk to the parish of their choice. If your parish is small and it has a priest at all, you feel lucky.

Why put the faithful out (even if this has been the constant practice for 40 years)? Why should the faithful have to continue to suffer? I’ve used this example before and I’ll use it now. My mom likes to ride her bike, walk, or jog to Mass at the church that has been her parish for the last 34 years. If she and a stable group wanted the TLM how would they feel to be told that they have to go to the next closest church which is three miles further? It add another hour or so to the priest’s morning by having to celebrate two Masses. In the parishes that have more than one priest (like my mom’s that has 4, and has more priests regularly visiting), it’d be even easier. One priest does the OF, the other the EF.

Well that’s the point, people want to attend Mass at their own parish without having to inconvenience themselves. Even an extra three miles is quite a difference when you’ve been going to your regular parish church that is two blocks from the house for the last 34 years…

It is very nice if you get to live walking distance from your parish church, and really great if that is a parish with more than one priest, but very few people in our state have that luxury…and it is a luxury.

I’m trying to think of a church in our Archdiocese that isn’t attached to a monastery and that has more than two priests in residence. There have to be more, but the only one I can think of is Holy Rosary. It is run by the Dominicans, and one of their priests is over 90. Our parish, which used to be half its current size, used to have three priests. Now we have one. The vicar of clergy, who has a desk job at the chancery office, has a parish, too.

I said it before, but I’ll say it again: Our priests are exhausted. They are run ragged. In our archdiocese, the normal retirement age for priests is 70. A great many who are still active are over 60. A number of those over 70 have kept working, to cover the need for Sunday Masses.

Our archbishop loves Latin. He was all set to teach Latin at the seminary when the requirements for seminary were changed. He is also at his wits’ end just to offer any kind of Mass at all in as many parishes as possible every weekend. It is not reasonable for him to ask every parish to offer a TLM on top of that when the demand is, to be blunt, very small compared to the other liturgical demands in the diocese.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Wow, deacon, it’s wonderful to hear an OF person say that. Now if only catharina and ethelzguy would realize what you have. Thank you for your candor.

I don’t think it’s an issue of a Novus Ordo person (OF) saying it, but rather those on both sides of the aisle saying it.

This next statement is NOT directed at you, but I do believe that some who oppose the Novus Ordo to the extremes that they do, are actually SSPXers in sheep’s clothing trying all they can to do to inflict as much disruption as they can. I know some SSPXers. Those I know are some of the most humble people I know. But the point is they do not attack Holy Mother Church, at least not with me, as I have seen some do on this forum. Even though I say over and over (and I do believe Catharina and Ethelzguy also hold this) that we should respect each others preferences for the form of the mass which Holy Mother Church allows us to have. That does not seem to be enough for some. Just keep these in prayer, sincere prayer. And all the rest of us also
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[pnewton]

Of course. He should drop everything, all the many needs of his hundreds of other parishioners, and either go learn the TLM so that he can say it (which takes just a little longer than the half-an-hour an extremely lucky priest might be able to spare in a day) or locate (not usually easy at all) a priest who a) knows the TLM ad b) is near enough to the parish, or willing enough to travel and c) with enough free time to come and say it (after all, he’s probably equally busy).

I did not suggest he drop anything or abandon any parishoners. You present a false dichotomy. No other function should be abandoned. I think you over estimate how difficult it would be to say the TLM. After all, it is not like it would have to be memorized and all priests can read Latin. If perchanve a priest is totally incompetant and this would present a hardship, then he would not be able to this. My experience is that most priest have are reasonably intelligent, though, or at least are not slow.

 

[EasterJoy]

I did not suggest he drop anything or abandon any parishoners. You present a false dichotomy. No other function should be abandoned. I think you over estimate how difficult it would be to say the TLM. After all, it is not like it would have to be memorized and all priests can read Latin. If perchanve a priest is totally incompetant and this would present a hardship, then he would not be able to this. My experience is that most priest have are reasonably intelligent, though, or at least are not slow.

I don’t know any priests whose standards for liturgy, let alone Mass, do not far surpass “not totally incompetent.”

I have been told by a priest who used to say the TLM that he does not know if he could do it anymore. Remember also that Latin does not have the place that it used to have in the seminary curriculum. Based on this, I think you underestimate the difficulty of learning the TLM well enough to celebrate it fluidly, reverently, and in total correctness.

Better to have the TLM celebrated very well, but in fewer places, than being content with havingmore TLMs, but at the standard of “not totally incompetent.”

I also know priests who are concerned that they cannot meet the needs of their parishioners in the hours they have in a day. There is not room to add things. There is not room to do what they wish they could as it is. For everything you add, something is going to have to give.

 

[ethelzguy]

Better to have the TLM celebrated very well, but in fewer places, than being content with havingmore TLMs, but at the standard of “not totally incompetent.”

Reminds me of a quote I read over the weekend:

Better to have a third-rate fireman, than an arsonist. or in this case, better to have a NO that perhaps isn’t perfect, than a botched TLM. I would think a botched TLM would turn more people off than on.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

If a stable group of faithful request a TLM and there is a priest willing and able to learn to celebrate it, why not take one of the Masses and make it a TLM so that it is less of a “burden” on the parish?

After all, do people who attend the NO actually have a right to have it as the only form of Mass in a parish? Or to not have any present NO service changed to a TLM?

Or is it a right to a properly celebrated Mass (i.e. according to the rubrics) regardless of form? Do those who attend the NO have some right to be inoculated from the Catholic form of worship which was in place for hundreds of years? A right to be inoculated from Latin even though Sacrosanctum Concilium called for Latin to be retained even in the New Mass?

 

[ethelzguy]

If a stable group of faithful request a TLM and there is a priest willing and able to learn to celebrate it, why not take one of the Masses and make it a TLM so that it is less of a “burden” on the parish?

After all, do people who attend the NO actually have a right to have it as the only form of Mass in a parish? Or to not have any present NO service changed to a TLM?

Or is it a right to a properly celebrated Mass (i.e. according to the rubrics) regardless of form? Do those who attend the NO have some right to be inoculated from the Catholic form of worship which was in place for hundreds of years? A right to be inoculated from Latin even though Sacrosanctum Concilium called for Latin to be retained even in the New Mass?

I think that was the point I raised a time back. Where does on person’s rights over-ride the rights of someone else?

What constitutes a “stable group”? If Rome had made things a little less ambiguous, we might not even be having this discussion.

 

[maurin]

but I do believe that some who oppose the Novus Ordo to the extremes that they do, are actually SSPXers in sheep’s clothing trying all they can to do to inflict as much disruption as they can. Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

I only wonder just on how many counts you are mistaken?

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

I only wonder just on how many counts you are mistaken?

I guess that too is a possibility since i suffer from the human condition
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

I think that was the point I raised a time back. Where does on person’s rights over-ride the rights of someone else?

What constitutes a “stable group”? If Rome had made things a little less ambiguous, we might not even be having this discussion.

I don’t think there is an exact number, of course. However, if a parish were to take, say, one out of their four Masses on a Sunday and change it from a NO to a TLM I would argue that there is no violation of NO attendees rights at all. After all, they are still getting a valid Mass. And of course if they really didn’t like it they could probably switch to going to Mass at a different time if they wanted.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

I don’t think there is an exact number, of course. However, if a parish were to take, say, one out of their four Masses on a Sunday and change it from a NO to a TLM I would argue that there is no violation of NO attendees rights at all. After all, they are still getting a valid Mass. And of course if they really didn’t like it they could probably switch to going to Mass at a different time if they wanted.

Brennan, I cannot argue with your response at all. I just have one question. Have you ever tried to change the schedule for something at an active parish? It is much easier said than done.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

Brennan, I cannot argue with your response at all. I just have one question. Have you ever tried to change the schedule for something at an active parish? It is much easier said than done.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

I believe you.