Tredentine Mass Is Our Right

[EasterJoy]

I don’t think there is an exact number, of course. However, if a parish were to take, say, one out of their four Masses on a Sunday and change it from a NO to a TLM I would argue that there is no violation of NO attendees rights at all. After all, they are still getting a valid Mass. And of course if they really didn’t like it they could probably switch to going to Mass at a different time if they wanted.

The question is whether you change a Mass in the ordinary form of the Church that 50 or 100 families like as it is for the sake of a Mass in the extraordinary form that five families want, presided over by a overworked priest who doesn’t even know the EF yet, when the five families could literally drive five or ten miles and find a larger group to celebrate the EF with.

If the priest wants to do this to promote the EF, that is one thing. I don’t think most bishops will to add this to so many priests’ responsibilities over the objections of the priests who don’t want it, though. They have lots of other fish to fry.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

The question is whether you change a Mass in the ordinary form of the Church that 50 or 100 families like as it is for the sake of a Mass in the extraordinary form that five families want, presided over by a overworked priest who doesn’t even know the EF yet, when the five families could literally drive five or ten miles and find a larger group to celebrate the EF with.

If the priest wants to do this to promote the EF, that is one thing. I don’t think most bishops will to add this to so many priests’ responsibilities over the objections of the priests who don’t want it, though. They have lots of other fish to fry.

I stipulated a priest willing to learn the Gregorian rite. I also didn’t stipulate a situation where the Gregorian rite was celebrated five miles down the road (if that was the case I would consider those families very fortunate–and in a unique situation).

Thus, where there is a stable group that wants the Gregorian rite, and so as not to add an extra Mass, I think it is perfectly acceptable to change one of the NO Masses over to a TLM. After all, those families who really don’t want to be around the Gregorian rite wouldn’t even have to drive down the road, they can just change times. Or maybe some of them will actually learn to appreciate the worship of our ancestors once they are exposed to it and take some time to get acquainted with it.

 

[cfell]

Wouldn’t it be great if:

My pastor were to be trained to preside at the TLM.

When ready, he can practice with the deacons, then add in the Altar Servers and readers until he is comfortable that he is performing the liturgy as the Magisterium requires.

When appropriate, ask the Bishop for a time that the TLM can be performed for him. If it is properly done, perhaps receive his blessing to offer the TLM in our parish.

With the Bishop’s approval (and one would hope, support) for the TLM, Invite folks to come to weekday evening TLM masses… so they can become reacquainted or introduced to the TLM… If enough support is present, introduce to the Sunday schedule.

Let the Holy Spirit open the hearts of the Faithful…

 

[pnewton]

Better to have the TLM celebrated very well, but in fewer places, than being content with havingmore TLMs, but at the standard of “not totally incompetent.”
.

That is a good point and would make an better question to the the group that wants a TLM. Are you willing to deal with a less than fluid, poorly pronounced TLM that might have mistakes and bugs in it while the priest learns? It seems this question would be better answered by those that want it than those of us that do not desire it.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

That is a good point and would make an better question to the the group that wants a TLM. Are you willing to deal with a less than fluid, poorly pronounced TLM that might have mistakes and bugs in it while the priest learns? It seems this question would be better answered by those that want it than those of us that do not desire it.

Yes, absolutely. Because I think it would improve over time and I also, due to varying abilities, don’t think each Priest would celebrate the TLM equally well.

Further, I don’t consider the TLM to be too dependent on the Priest (other than the consecration, of course). So I can still participate in the Mass of my ancestors and pray the same prayers regardless of the Priest’s abilities.

 

[EasterJoy]

I stipulated a priest willing to learn the Gregorian rite. I also didn’t stipulate a situation where the Gregorian rite was celebrated five miles down the road (if that was the case I would consider those families very fortunate–and in a unique situation).

Thus, where there is a stable group that wants the Gregorian rite, and so as not to add an extra Mass, I think it is perfectly acceptable to change one of the NO Masses over to a TLM. After all, those families who really don’t want to be around the Gregorian rite wouldn’t even have to drive down the road, they can just change times. Or maybe some of them will actually learn to appreciate the worship of our ancestors once they are exposed to it and take some time to get acquainted with it.

The point I was trying to make is that within Portland’s Metro Area, you often have a high density of parishes like that, whereas in the rural areas and small towns, you might have one priest, sometimes past the retirement age of 70, covering two or three little parishes with one Mass per weekend. There are three parishes in the Salem-Keizer area; there isn’t a need to have a separate micro-TLM group at each one. The combined group wouldn’t even be that large, at present.

Now, if one of those little parishes with the beautiful traditional altar and setting were to desire that their one-and-only Mass each Sunday be EF, I suppose that could happen, providing the priest was willing.

Having said all this…the two dioceses in our state are having a time of it getting enough priests to fill the demand for OF Masses, which is what most Catholics currently want. If I am not mistaken, the only parish in the state of Oregon that regularly offers the EF on Sunday is St. Birgitta’s, in NW Portland. I think that Holy Rosary in Portland has the EF sometimes, too, but not as a regular Sunday Mass. The EF is also offered fairly often at St. Francis in Bend, which is in the Diocese of Baker. I think there is also an EF regularly offered over on the Oregon coast every month, but I think that’s a Monday Mass.

Those who want greater access to the EF are using the internet to organize, however. I think they are correct in their assessment that their efforts need to include education and carefully maintaining a relationship of good will with local clergy. Here’s an Oregon group that has that goal:
unavoceco.org/index.html

That is a good point and would make an better question to the the group that wants a TLM. Are you willing to deal with a less than fluid, poorly pronounced TLM that might have mistakes and bugs in it while the priest learns? It seems this question would be better answered by those that want it than those of us that do not desire it.

This is true, too, although I would think a bishop would hesitate to discount a priest who is concerned that he cannot deliver the TLM liturgy up to his own standards, either.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

The point I was trying to make is that within Portland’s Metro Area, you often have a high density of parishes like that, whereas in the rural areas and small towns, you might have one priest, sometimes past the retirement age of 70, covering two or three little parishes with one Mass per weekend. There are three parishes in the Salem-Keizer area; there isn’t a need to have a separate micro-TLM group at each one. The combined group wouldn’t even be that large, at present.

Now, if one of those little parishes with the beautiful traditional altar and setting were to desire that their one-and-only Mass each Sunday be EF, I suppose that could happen, providing the priest was willing.

Having said all this…the two dioceses in our state are having a time of it getting enough priests to fill the demand for OF Masses, which is what most Catholics currently want. If I am not mistaken, the only parish in the state of Oregon that regularly offers the EF on Sunday is St. Birgitta’s, in NW Portland. I think that Holy Rosary in Portland has the EF sometimes, too, but not as a regular Sunday Mass. The EF is also offered fairly often at St. Francis in Bend, which is in the Diocese of Baker. I think there is also an EF regularly offered over on the Oregon coast every month, but I think that’s a Monday Mass.

Those who want greater access to the EF are using the internet to organize, however. I think they are correct in their assessment that their efforts need to include education and carefully maintaining a relationship of good will with local clergy. Here’s an Oregon group that has that goal:
unavoceco.org/index.html

This is true, too, although I would think a bishop would hesitate to discount a priest who is concerned that he cannot deliver the TLM liturgy up to his own standards, either.

I also live in Oregon so thanks for the link.

Oregon is a good example. You are correct in that St. Birgitta’s is the only indult parish that offers the TLM at 8 am on Sundays. I’ve been there a number of times in the past.

However, although technically it may be in the boundaries of Portland, it is something like ten (or fifteen) miles outside of downtown Portland, out beyond an industrial area, in a location hardly anyone would ever drive by unless they happened to live there. It’s difficult to imagine a more remote location that is still technically within the boundaries of the archdiocese of Portland.

So what I hope to see is someplace like Holy Rosary, or just any church that is more accessible (I take public transport now and that doesn’t run out to the area of St. Birgitta’s on Sunday), offer the Gregorian rite. And if one church replaced a NO with a TLM so as not to add another Mass then good. It would help not only the people in that parish who wanted a TLM, but also any number of people who would like a TLM which is actually located in a populated area.

 

[EasterJoy]

I also live in Oregon so thanks for the link.

Oregon is a good example. You are correct in that St. Birgitta’s is the only indult parish that offers the TLM at 8 am on Sundays. I’ve been there a number of times in the past.

However, although technically it may be in the boundaries of Portland, it is something like ten (or fifteen) miles outside of downtown Portland, out beyond an industrial area, in a location hardly anyone would ever drive by unless they happened to live there. It’s difficult to imagine a more remote location that is still technically within the boundaries of the archdiocese of Portland.

So what I hope to see is someplace like Holy Rosary, or just any church that is more accessible (I take public transport now and that doesn’t run out to the area of St. Birgitta’s on Sunday), offer the Gregorian rite. And if one church replaced a NO with a TLM so as not to add another Mass then good. It would help not only the people in that parish who wanted a TLM, but also any number of people who would like a TLM which is actually located in a populated area.

Holy Rosary would seem to be ideal, considering character of the parish and that it is a five-minute walk off of the MAX line. Those are some busy priests, though. As you know, there are a lot of Catholics in the area who want a very traditional OF, too. So I couldn’t say what the likelihood of that is.

Speaking of, do you know about Ecce Veritas?(www.ecceveritas.org) It is not the parish school for Holy Rosary, but it operates very near there. Ecce Veritas is one of two Latin-based schools I know of in Western Oregon. The other is Marian Latin School, down in Mt. Angel. Anyway, Ecce Veritas is fairly new, so they’re looking for all the support they can get, even more than the other Catholic schools. If I’m not mistaken, and more to the point of the thread, the students learn to chant there, and do so at a school Mass each week at noon. I don’t think that’s an EF Mass–I just found out about their school Masses this summer, so I haven’t been to one yet–but if that is something you’d be interested in, you might contact the school.

Getting Latin into the curricula of at least some of the Catholic schools is another thing that will encourage the EF. Alas, when I took Latin in high school, there were only 7 takers. The modern languages were much more popular, and that was 25 years ago.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

Holy Rosary would seem to be ideal, considering character of the parish and that it is a five-minute walk off of the MAX line. Those are some busy priests, though. As you know, there are a lot of Catholics in the area who want a very traditional OF, too. So I couldn’t say what the likelihood of that is.

Speaking of, do you know about Ecce Veritas?(www.ecceveritas.org) It is not the parish school for Holy Rosary, but it operates very near there. Ecce Veritas is one of two Latin-based schools I know of in Western Oregon. The other is Marian Latin School, down in Mt. Angel. Anyway, Ecce Veritas is fairly new, so they’re looking for all the support they can get, even more than the other Catholic schools. If I’m not mistaken, and more to the point of the thread, the students learn to chant there, and do so at a school Mass each week at noon. I don’t think that’s an EF Mass–I just found out about their school Masses this summer, so I haven’t been to one yet–but if that is something you’d be interested in, you might contact the school.

Getting Latin into the curricula of at least some of the Catholic schools is another thing that will encourage the EF. Alas, when I took Latin in high school, there were only 7 takers. The modern languages were much more popular, and that was 25 years ago.

Thanks for the info. I had not heard of those schools. I guess one hindrance to Latin 25 years ago is that since (for the most part) the liturgy was no longer offered in Latin that took away at least one incentive to learn it.

Yes, Holy Rosary would be ideal. And again, they are a good case in point. They already have something like four or five Masses on Sunday so I would not expect them to add another one to the schedule. But they do have the NO partially in Latin with Gregorian chant at the 11 am Mass.

Now, if a stable group asks for it, why not simply change the 11 am Mass to a TLM (or Dominican rite Mass)? It’s hard to believe that anyone who attends that particular Mass wouldn’t actually want a TLM since they’re already attending a Mass that’s partially in Latin. Or that there’s a group that wants the NO in Latin but wouldn’t want the Gregorian rite in Latin.

But I realize they are a religious order and so are not directly under the Bishop’s jurisdiction and operate by different rules.

 

[EasterJoy]

…Yes, Holy Rosary would be ideal. And again, they are a good case in point. They already have something like four or five Masses on Sunday so I would not expect them to add another one to the schedule. But they do have the NO partially in Latin with Gregorian chant at the 11 am Mass.

Now, if a stable group asks for it, why not simply change the 11 am Mass to a TLM (or Dominican rite Mass)? It’s hard to believe that anyone who attends that particular Mass wouldn’t actually want a TLM since they’re already attending a Mass that’s partially in Latin. Or that there’s a group that wants the NO in Latin but wouldn’t want the Gregorian rite in Latin.

But I realize they are a religious order and so are not directly under the Bishop’s jurisdiction and operate by different rules.

Those are some really good priests. I trust their judgement on whether using the EF over a Latin OF is currently the best course for their parishioners, who come from far outside Holy Rosary’s geographical boundaries. But yes, I’d expect the change would be to the Domincan rite!

 

[LilyM]

I did not suggest he drop anything or abandon any parishoners. You present a false dichotomy. No other function should be abandoned. I think you over estimate how difficult it would be to say the TLM. After all, it is not like it would have to be memorized and all priests can read Latin. If perchanve a priest is totally incompetant and this would present a hardship, then he would not be able to this. My experience is that most priest have are reasonably intelligent, though, or at least are not slow.

If you read my post properly, however, you’d note that intelligence is not at all the issue - time is.

And yes it takes a certain amount of time to even learn how to pronounce an hour or an hour and a half’s worth of Latin, even if you’re not memorising it. Besides which there are rubrics and gestures to be learned, which again takes time even if they’re not memorised. Not to mention altar servers have to be trained as well, which exponentially increases the amount of work it takes.

I know few if any priests who aren’t incredibly busy at all times, so there’s no question but that to make any time to learn the TLM they’d have to abandon some of their other tasks, unless you expect them to get no sleep of course.

So yes it IS an undue imposition to expect any except those who have the interest and the time to do so to learn and say the TLM.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Lily, there is still a remnant of us out there. Our rector already says the EF privately. I retain all of the Latin responses I learned as a kid (besides which, the altar boys had placards before them with all of their prayers and responses). Yes, I would have to refresh myself on the rubrics. But I don’t see that as insurmountable. I would be willing to bet that there are many men over 55 who were altar boys before V II who would form a willing cadre.

I trained my “altar boy team” way back when. I’m fairly certain I could do it again and would be willing to do so. Father has already asked me if I would be willing to sing in a schola to which I gave him an enthusiastic YES!

Can it be done at every parish? Probably not. But at my parish, we’ve got the priest; we’ve got the choir; and we have enough of us old geezers hanging around that we could pull it off relatively easily. The problem is our bishop who merely “acknowledged” the MP.

 

[pnewton]

If you read my post properly, however, you’d note that intelligence is not at all the issue - time is.

No, I understand. It is just that I do not agree. It may be that compromise is called for on both sides instead of one side steamrolling the other. A priest that can not even read Latin, the easiest language in the world to read and the official language of the Roman Catholic Church, should be removed and sent back for remedial training. The rest of the TLM is in the rubrics, which are in English. I don’t doubt some priest would state they could not say the TLM, but that would be an excuse, not a reason.

I don’t believe the TLM should be offered in every parish. But those parishes that have people that want it, should try to incorporate it. That is the will of the Holy Father. That is the pastoral thing to do.

Both sides need to be less controntation and more open to compromise.

 

[SFD]

Ummm … apart from the fact that it is a validly aproved and promulgated form of the Mass - by which fact alone that the Canons of Trent come into force in the following ways:

"Seventh Session

Canon XIII. If any one saith, that the received **and approved **rites of the Catholic Church, wont to be used in the solemn administration of the sacraments, may be contemned … let him be anathema."

"Twenty Second Session

Canon VII. If any one saith, that the ceremonies, vestments, and outward signs, which the Catholic Church makes use of in the celebration of masses, are incentives to impiety, rather than offices of piety; let him be anathema."

Of course abuses of any form of the Mass are to be condemned strongly, but the forms themselves are solid and cannot lightly be condemned.

LilyM:

Pope Pius IV’s Bull Benedictus Deus (26 January 1564):

The Bull, which confirms the decrees of the Council of Trent, imposes a latae sententiae (automatic) excommunication on anyone who, without the approval of the Holy See, presumes “to publish in any form any commentaries, glosses, annotations, scholia on, or any kind of interpretation whatsoever of the decrees of this council.” The reason for this prohibition, the Bull stated, was to avoid the “perversion and confusion” arising from private commentaries on and interpretations of the Tridentine decrees.

SFD

 

[pnewton]

LilyM:

Pope Pius IV’s Bull Benedictus Deus (26 January 1564):

Canon Law from 400 years ago is of no force. The only valid excommunications would be those mentioned in the latest Code.

 

[ethelzguy]

However, if a parish were to take, say, one out of their four Masses on a Sunday and change it from a NO to a TLM I would argue that there is no violation of NO attendees rights at all. **After all, they are still getting a valid Mass. **.

This assertion works both ways.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

This assertion works both ways.

I don’t think it works as strongly when, as in my case, there is literally no regular TLM readily available near a population center in any church.

 

[eelpis]

Ummm … apart from the fact that it is a validly aproved and promulgated form of the Mass - by which fact alone that the Canons of Trent come into force in the following ways:

"Seventh Session

Canon XIII. If any one saith, that the received **and approved **rites of the Catholic Church, wont to be used in the solemn administration of the sacraments, may be contemned … let him be anathema."

"Twenty Second Session

Canon VII. If any one saith, that the ceremonies, vestments, and outward signs, which the Catholic Church makes use of in the celebration of masses, are incentives to impiety, rather than offices of piety; let him be anathema."

Of course abuses of any form of the Mass are to be condemned strongly, but the forms themselves are solid and cannot lightly be condemned.

Where do these canons leave the reformers of the Roman rite?and the Abusers?

 

[ethelzguy]

I don’t think it works as strongly when, as in my case, there is literally no regular TLM readily available near a population center in any church.

There is NO TLM available in any regularized parish in the entire Portland area?

 

[ethelzguy]

I don’t think it works as strongly when, as in my case, there is literally no regular TLM readily available near a population center in any church.

As a followup. I am not trying to be obstructionist, I am trying to be practical. Across Catholic America, we have evolved into something of a “customized” Mass culture.

We have guitar Mass, LifeTeen Mass, Vietnamese Mass, Spanish Mass, Polish Mass, etc., etc,.

It is safe to say, that most of these “custom” Masses are a result of demand or practicality. If 25-30 percent of your congregation is Hispanic with poor English skills, practicality and demand suggests that you have a Spanish Mass.

The same goes with the other “language-specific” Masses. LifeTeen and guitar Masses as such, probably don’t quite fit the “demand” issue as well. Even so, these evolved as a result of demand of some sort. Or in the case of guitar Masses, in some parishes if it wasn’t for the guitars, there wouldn’t be any music at all.

What I do see here at CAF, is the idea that “the parishes should offer TLMs and the demand would grow.” Seems a little “cart before the horse”. Perhaps if the demand were demonstrated by petition or something similar, things might change.

Another issue is Mass space. For example, in the next town, where some of my kids and grandkids go, they have 5 Masses every weekend. One Saturday and four on Sunday. They are ALL SRO. And, that’s not exaggerating. The 1pm Spanish Mass actually has people out the doors, down the steps, and on the sidewalk…So, how would you accomodate a TLM? Many of the SRO crowd in any of the other Masses wouldn’t want it, and they would attempt to shift to another Mass, which wouldn’t work, and they would wind up at another parish all together.

So, it’s not always about a priest or parish not wanting to do it, it’s a matter of practicality.