Trent and Mary Suffering Pain in Childbirth

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jmjconder said:
**

**Mary was ever virgin. This is a doctrine of the Catholic Church…that is all I need - I do not need to know how. ****

ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/DURBIRTH.HTM

Her “Pain” is in "giving birth to Her spiritual children, that’s us. We are the cause of her pain when we sin. She knows first hand what Her Son did for us. Let’s do our best to comfort her with our Love and try our best not to sin. God Bless, Memaw
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Is it tradition or Tradition that she sufferef no pain in bearing Jesus? at first glance I would be inclined to believe that she did suffer childbearing pain as this would allow her to suffer physically in union with Christ suffering anticipatorally. But if Holy Mother Church says that she definitely did not suffer childbearing pain I accept that.
 
Layp3rs0n said:
Is it tradition or Tradition that she sufferef no pain in bearing Jesus? at first glance I would be inclined to believe that she did suffer childbearing pain as this would allow her to suffer physically in union with Christ suffering anticipatorally. But if Holy Mother Church says that she definitely did not suffer childbearing pain I accept that.
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Unless I am 100% certain of what I am saying, I am rarely vehement in a response.

Our Lady DID NOT suffer any pain in childbirth. Pain in childbirth is a consequence of Original Sin. Our Lady was conceived without Original Sin.

There are no ifs, ands or buts about this. 🙂
 
Lormar said:
Unless I am 100% certain of what I am saying, I am rarely vehement in a response.

Our Lady DID NOT suffer any pain in childbirth. Pain in childbirth is a consequence of Original Sin. Our Lady was conceived without Original Sin.

There are no ifs, ands or buts about this. 🙂
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This is the truth! I agree!
 
I got this from the EWTN bible, but look at Isaiah 66:7, my bible it that Zion will give birth without feeling pain, remember the Church states that Mary is the daughter of Zion. But this is the bible verse about Mary not feeling pain.

Isaiah 66:7
"Before she was in labor she gave birth; before her pain came upon her she was delivered of a son.
 
chero23 said:
I got this from the EWTN bible, but look at Isaiah 66:7, my bible it that Zion will give birth without feeling pain, remember the Church states that Mary is the daughter of Zion. But this is the bible verse about Mary not feeling pain.

Isaiah 66:7
"Before she was in labor she gave birth; before her pain came upon her she was delivered of a son.
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But the Woman of Revelation 12 “travailed in pain.” :confused:

Edit: I know verses shouldn’t be cherry-picked out of context to support a theory, but if I remember correctly this is usually read for the Assumption so I assumed it might be safe.
 
Lormar said:
Unless I am 100% certain of what I am saying, I am rarely vehement in a response.

Our Lady DID NOT suffer any pain in childbirth. Pain in childbirth is a consequence of Original Sin. Our Lady was conceived without Original Sin.

There are no ifs, ands or buts about this. 🙂
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I totally disagree and and am just as vehement about it. Just to let you know. I also will not argue the point because it has been argued ad nauseum on these forums. There is no definitive statement from the Church on this, so there are if’s, ands, and buts…🙂
 
🙂 Thank you, Carolyn, because I have no intention of debating your opinion.

God bless you!
 
SecretaryMonday said:
But the Woman of Revelation 12 “travailed in pain.” :confused:

Edit: I know verses shouldn’t be cherry-picked out of context to support a theory, but if I remember correctly this is usually read for the Assumption so I assumed it might be safe.
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Remember SecretaryMonday, but birth pangs is a metaphor, in Galatians 4:9 Paul states that he has birth pangs. But he’s not literally given birth to a 9 lb. baby, what he is talking about the pangs of suffering of that of a father. Besides look at the rest of Revelation 12, it talks about how the woman gave birth to the messiah which is Jesus.

If you look in at the site im going to give, theirs at least 5 or 6 verses were birth pangs are described by men. We knew that us men thank God can’t give birth, so what John was talking about was a metaphor.

scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html
 
It is fitting that the Virgin Mary would not experience pain in childbirth, since she was conceived apart from the stain of original sin (CCC 490-93) and pain in childbirth is one of the results of the Fall (Gen 3:16).

It is also written in Isaiah:
Before she was in labor, she gave birth;
before her pain came upon her
she was delivered of a son.
Who has heard such a thing?
Who has seen such things?
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To me, this suffices as “evidence” against any contrary argument, no matter how vehement. Both reason and Scripture support this tradition of Holy Church - a pious tradition which has been left unquestioned, as far as I know, until a time came when people began to think they had any right to dare to discuss such matters regarding our Mother, or, more recently, when they started splitting the hair on the Magisterium’s teachings trying to discern on their own whether a certain teaching is ex cathedra or dogma de fide or sententia communis or who knows what else.
 
chero23 said:
Remember SecretaryMonday, but birth pangs is a metaphor, in Galatians 4:9 Paul states that he has birth pangs. But he’s not literally given birth to a 9 lb. baby, what he is talking about the pangs of suffering of that of a father. Besides look at the rest of Revelation 12, it talks about how the woman gave birth to the messiah which is Jesus.

If you look in at the site im going to give, theirs at least 5 or 6 verses were birth pangs are described by men. We knew that us men thank God can’t give birth, so what John was talking about was a metaphor.

scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html
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I know, and she was not literally clothed with the sun. 😛 But how do we know that Isaiah 66:7 is not metaphorical?
 
SecretaryMonday said:
I know, and she was not literally clothed with the sun. 😛 But how do we know that Isaiah 66:7 is not metaphorical?
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Well remember she is the mother of Jesus, who is the 2nd part of the Trinity. Jesus who is God can do anything that he wishes, he probably did display his mother with the sun behind her and the moon underneath her feet and 12 stars above her head. Remember God, made the Sea part in two, he had the plagues in Egypt, he made Jonah come out of the big fish in 3 days, god is God, and he can do anything whenever he wants bc this is all his and he has that power.
 
I do not know that the Church has definitively ruled on this question. Absent that, I don’t KNOW how we could empirically KNOW, anyway. I can see it either way: Our Lady was exempt from the suffering of childbirth because She was sinless OR Our Lady suffered the undeserved pangs of childbirth for our sake, to bring us the Christ, as He would suffer the undeserved agony of the Cross to save us.

Here is an interesting article from an orthodox site:

catholic.net/index.php?option=dedestaca&id=2385
 
JKirkLVNV said:
I do not know that the Church has definitively ruled on this question. Absent that, I don’t KNOW how we could empirically KNOW, anyway. I can see it either way: Our Lady was exempt from the suffering of childbirth because She was sinless OR Our Lady suffered the undeserved pangs of childbirth for our sake, to bring us the Christ, as He would suffer the undeserved agony of the Cross to save us.

Here is an interesting article from an orthodox site:

catholic.net/index.php?option=dedestaca&id=2385
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And a very interesting and challenging one, that. Thank you!
 
I could not find the article referenced in the link provided in JKirkLVNV post so if I am repeating something I apologize.

I have met and heard of women who have had nearly painless childbirths and in some cases no pain. Not only were they painless but also no drugs were used.
When I saw this thread I did a quick google search and found a few testimonies about it. The one I read in particular said the method she used was to change her whole mindset on child birth from being a dreadful and painful experience to one of Joy. It got me thinking and I wonder…since we know that the sin of Adam and Eve corrupted our sight in how men and women look at and see each other did it not also then corrupt our outlook on how we see the rest of the world and each other and also how we see childbirth?
So if it is Mary, the Mother of Jesus, did not suffer the effects of this corrupted vision she would have found the perfect Joy in childbirth and the life giving and giving of self to her child that so many of us struggle with because we still struggle with the selfish and self centered self serving effects of original sin. We know our Blessed Mother Mary was not self serving and self centered so she would have an uncorrupted view and understanding of childbirth and what our corrupted view would conceive as being pain our Blessed Mother Mary would only find Love and Joy in. I know I could be wrong but I believe this is why it is said she did not feel pain in childbirth.

As always I hope and pray this makes some sense.
 
simple_soul said:
I could not find the article referenced in the link provided in JKirkLVNV post so if I am repeating something I apologize.

I have met and heard of women who have had nearly painless childbirths and in some cases no pain. Not only were they painless but also no drugs were used.
When I saw this thread I did a quick google search and found a few testimonies about it. The one I read in particular said the method she used was to change her whole mindset on child birth from being a dreadful and painful experience to one of Joy. It got me thinking and I wonder…since we know that the sin of Adam and Eve corrupted our sight in how men and women look at and see each other did it not also then corrupt our outlook on how we see the rest of the world and each other and also how we see childbirth?
So if it is Mary, the Mother of Jesus, did not suffer the effects of this corrupted vision she would have found the perfect Joy in childbirth and the life giving and giving of self to her child that so many of us struggle with because we still struggle with the selfish and self centered self serving effects of original sin. We know our Blessed Mother Mary was not self serving and self centered so she would have an uncorrupted view and understanding of childbirth and what our corrupted view would conceive as being pain our Blessed Mother Mary would only find Love and Joy in. I know I could be wrong but I believe this is why it is said she did not feel pain in childbirth.

As always I hope and pray this makes some sense.
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Interesting. 🙂
 
SecretaryMonday said:
But the Woman of Revelation 12 “travailed in pain.” :confused:

Edit: I know verses shouldn’t be cherry-picked out of context to support a theory, but if I remember correctly this is usually read for the Assumption so I assumed it might be safe.
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Traditionally, the Lady in Revelation is the Church, not Mary. It’s only with the new 3-year lectionary that the passages from Revelation have started to be used and associated with Marian feasts, like Assumption.

Also I believe it’s Sacred Tradition that in addition to not suffering pain, the birth of our Saviour was miraculous and the Virgin kept her bodily integrity “intact” because she didn’t give birth the the ususal physical way, if you you know what I mean.
 
Magnanimous said:
Traditionally, the Lady in Revelation is the Church, not Mary.
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But isn’t it written: “the new Jerusalem is a free woman and our mother”?

Read better…you will find that is not either/or but rather, both…!
 
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