Trent Horn debate with James White: watch here!

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That whole exchange had me scratching my head. Basically JW was saying that Jesus was sanctified by Jesus.
I understood where JW was going with this because what he says about the priest making an offering for himself is true. But I think he is really reaching to say Jesus does this to fulfill all righteousness. This head scratcher just shows you how good JW is. He new he had to waste time on this to eat up the clock, because I think Trent was trying to follow through with this thought to get to Hebrews 10:35 Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.

How could you throw away something you never had in the first place?

When push comes to shove JW is correct, the elect can’t lose their salvation. The part he refuses to admit are the elect are the ones that endure to the end and there is no way you can know if you are one of the elect until judgement day.

Let’s pray the Holy Spirit will remove his ego so he can see the truth.

God Bless
 
I understood where JW was going with this because what he says about the priest making an offering for himself is true. But I think he is really reaching to say Jesus does this to fulfill all righteousness. This head scratcher just shows you how good JW is. He new he had to waste time on this to eat up the clock, because I think Trent was trying to follow through with this thought to get to Hebrews 10:35 Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.

How could you throw away something you never had in the first place?
**
When push comes to shove JW is correct, the elect can’t lose their salvation. The part he refuses to admit are the elect are the ones that endure to the end and there is no way you can know if you are one of the elect until judgement day.**

Let’s pray the Holy Spirit will remove his ego so he can see the truth.

God Bless
Exactly, and trying to concoct these sort of Calvinistic formulas that are in opposition to Church teaching are dangerous, and I would argue that they are also intellectual idolatry.
 
Holy Cow.

It just dawned on me JW harped so much on John 6:39 in his debate. It kept lingering in the back of my brain, I would think JW wouldn’t want to go anywhere near John 6 in this debate.

John 6:39
39 and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day.

He is basically saying Jesus here is speaking “literally” about his elect, “if he loses a single one that makes Jesus a liar.”

Well that made me scratch my head, because doesn’t JW believe Jesus is speaking symbolically in verse 35 and pretty much every sentence for the rest of the chapter? 🤷
 
So I watched the 2nd half of the debate, finally. 🙂

I have to say that I thought Trent mopped the floor with Dr. White. But I am obviously a biased Catholic.

Are there any sort of, on the fence folks who watched it and would like to provide their thoughts?

Thank you
Well I also watched all of it and think Trent was smashed. This is really just on what side you are sitting. Either way, I can’t see a winner or loser depending on the viewers.
 
Well I also watched all of it and think Trent was smashed. This is really just on what side you are sitting. Either way, I can’t see a winner or loser depending on the viewers.
Really?

Can you explain how JW knows whether a bible verse is prescriptive or descriptive?
 
Really?

Can you explain how JW knows whether a bible verse is prescriptive or descriptive?
Well Merger, neither I or you would be a Professor in Greek. Not even Trent challenged this, actually referred to “his” points as the same in either way. I am not advocating any way, just pointing out the “more learnt” people and what they say.

All in all, you didn’t say much, there. Maybe point to something we can talk about on the same level.

Regards
 
Well Merger, neither I or you would be a Professor in Greek. Not even Trent challenged this, actually referred to “his” points as the same in either way. I am not advocating any way, just pointing out the “more learnt” people and what they say.

All in all, you didn’t say much, there. Maybe point to something we can talk about on the same level.

Regards
The above is a nonsequitur, Michael.

JW made a point about prescriptive vs descriptive, but didn’t tell us how we are to differentiate between the 2.

Yet that was a big point he was asserting.

You need to tell us how you know whether a verse is presumptive vs descriptive.

But I suspect that you are like the rest of us…clueless about how we are to know JW’s formula for this, which is why you likely won’t be able to address my question.
 
The above is a nonsequitur, Michael.

JW made a point about prescriptive vs descriptive, but didn’t tell us how we are to differentiate between the 2.

Yet that was a big point he was asserting.

You need to tell us how you know whether a verse is presumptive vs descriptive.

But I suspect that you are like the rest of us…clueless about how we are to know JW’s formula for this, which is why you likely won’t be able to address my question.
Well is it non sequitur according to you? I guess that depends upon our own feelings which are quite a big deal here… it seems.

As I have stated, which was apparently not “valid”, you and I are not a Professor in Greek! Do you understand this? It means you are not proficient enough. If you are, let me know, I am all ears! Secondly, under the same umbrella, Trent who may be Proficient, DID NOT CHALLANGE IT! So explain how it is non nonsequitur.

SO!. I do not need to tell you anything, I didn’t even address my original post to you.

Answer the question or go about your own way!

Regards
 
Well I also watched all of it and think Trent was smashed. This is really just on what side you are sitting. Either way, I can’t see a winner or loser depending on the viewers.
Other non Catholics say JW lost.🤷

Sam Shamoun being one if them.

I’d love to see a poll of 100 folks who cant make up their mind between Catholicism and Protestantism. Would be the only fairly legit barometer.

Nice complex prescriptive vs descriptive theory he has. But wait a minute isn’t he holding to SS and the idea that the common Joe can interpret it without problems?

Seems we all need PhD’s and a reformed upbringing to fully grasp the messages that God has for us, according to JW anyhow.
 
Other non Catholics say JW lost.🤷

Sam Shamoun being one if them.

I’d love to see a poll of 100 folks who cant make up their mind between Catholicism and Protestantism. Would be the only fairly legit barometer.

Nice complex prescriptive vs descriptive theory he has. But wait a minute isn’t he holding to SS and the idea that the common Joe can interpret it without problems?

Seems we all need PhD’s and a reformed upbringing to fully grasp the messages that God has for us, according to JW anyhow.
Well thanks to CAF I even got to know about Sam Shamoun. Following him for even 1 day put a HUGE question mark there!

Just saying!
 
Well thanks to CAF I even got to know about Sam Shamoun. Following him for even 1 day put a HUGE question mark there!

Just saying!
Sam actually blocked me on Facebook lol.

Loves to trash my Church but doesnt want to defend his comments.

So not a fan of his either.

Just saying, he is anti Catholic as they come so no real incentive for him to give a bogus opinion
 
Well is it non sequitur according to you? I guess that depends upon our own feelings which are quite a big deal here… it seems.
Not sure what gives you the impression that “our own feelings” are “quite a big deal here”.

Maybe in the threads you post in, but that’s not been the majority of the threads which I’ve participated in.

The threads I read and contribute to are mainly apologetics/philosophy/morality. So feelings are secondary to logic and reason.
As I have stated, which was apparently not “valid”, you and I are not a Professor in Greek!
Indeed. That is exactly right and I am glad we are agreed here.

Saying that we are not professors in Greek is a nonsequitur.

No Christian needs to be conversant in Greek in order to understand the good news.

That’s a weird limitation to impose upon Biblical readers.

The Bible doesn’t state that.

It’s just a man-made tradition you’ve bought in to, Michael.

Ironically.
 
Well I also watched all of it and think Trent was smashed. This is really just on what side you are sitting. Either way, I can’t see a winner or loser depending on the viewers.
Really?

Let us start here with Heb 10:

Heb 10:28-29:

28 A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?

James W said the “he” in this passage is Jesus. Do you agree the “he” is Jesus or not?

And please explain you answer.
 
Well I also watched all of it and think Trent was smashed. This is really just on what side you are sitting. Either way, I can’t see a winner or loser depending on the viewers.
Interesting, but I can’t really say if you’re right or not as I haven’t watched it. (Wouldn’t that cut into my time for reading the millions of posts on this forum? 😊)
 
Well I also watched all of it and think Trent was smashed. This is really just on what side you are sitting. Either way, I can’t see a winner or loser depending on the viewers.
I can see why you would think this. JW speaks with such confidence and assertiveness that unless you can see through his smoke and mirrors it is hard to see that he is just wanting you to follow his man made beliefs.

Trent does need a little more work to become more confident in pulling out JWs misinterpretations. Like when he said “saving faith is called the gift of God in numerous passages of scripture.” I couldn’t find a single one of these numerous passages that used the words saving faith and the only passages I found said that the gift of God is eternal life, never mentioned anything about saving faith.

His prescriptive/descriptive bible interpreting makes no sense and deep down he knows it. That is why he spends more time pre debate talking to his listeners and post debate reaffirming his weaknesses than he does in the actual debate. He knows it and we aren’t fooled.

All we can do is keep praying for him.
 
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PRmerger:
Can you explain how JW knows whether a bible verse is prescriptive or descriptive?
Well Merger, neither I or you would be a Professor in Greek.
Hmm. OK, so, it’s not a non seqitur, then. So…

what you’re saying is that, in order to know whether a Bible verse is ‘prescriptive’ or ‘descriptive’, one must know sufficient Greek grammar? In other words, it’s simply a matter of expertise in Koine Greek?

That’s not an unreasonable answer. Of course, if it’s that simple, then it should be a piece of cake to formulate a rule. I mean, we might not have sufficient expertise in Greek to apply the rule knowledgeably, but if it’s just a matter of being “a professor in Greek”, then the statement of the rule (which is what I think PR is asking) should be pretty straightforward.

So, then, the question becomes: what’s the objective determination – as a function of some characteristic in Koine Greek – of ‘prescriptive’ vs ‘descriptive’ statements?
 
Good day Merger.

Firstly I see numerous other posters joined in here. You all must understand I neither have the stamina or time to answer every one. The extent to what my mere little opinionated post regarding opinions has brought, is somewhat mind blowing. I referred it to a certain poster whom I have conversed with many times and that was the intent.
Not sure what gives you the impression that “our own feelings” are “quite a big deal here”.

Maybe in the threads you post in, but that’s not been the majority of the threads which I’ve participated in.

The threads I read and contribute to are mainly apologetics/philosophy/morality. So feelings are secondary to logic and reason.

Indeed. That is exactly right and I am glad we are agreed here.

Saying that we are not professors in Greek is a nonsequitur.

No Christian needs to be conversant in Greek in order to understand the good news.

That’s a weird limitation to impose upon Biblical readers.

The Bible doesn’t state that.

It’s just a man-made tradition you’ve bought in to, Michael.

Ironically.
So I see you have a tendency to only quote half my post when you reply. If you go and pick parts out I understand how you can reply this. I was not just stating that we are not proficient in Greek as an independent statement. You missed (also interestingly) the second part of that statement. The second part I have stated twice and now a third time is that
  • Why did Trent not challenge that? - And also, why later on even referring to his own statements in the same way? So my question isn’t anything to do with a limitation on us when trying to understand Scripture, that’s a very funny thing to say to a Protestant. But rather that someone who is obviously proficient in many things, have all the reasons to want to challenge that, but didn’t? Maybe he didn’t agree with it, but that just means he didn’t think it mattered. So if you put all this together and hopefully understand my post now, you should see your question is pretty much as you like to state non sequitur.
Taking the above into account after you understand the post, the last 3 lines of your post becomes irrelevant as you can see I never said that (Maybe just seems that way if you quote/read half my post).

Regards
 
Firstly I see numerous other posters joined in here. You all must understand I neither have the stamina or time to answer every one. The extent to what my mere little opinionated post regarding opinions has brought, is somewhat mind blowing. I referred it to a certain poster whom I have conversed with many times and that was the intent.
You have to admit, though, that you made an interesting assertion, and one that pricked up more than a couple ears! 👍
I was not just stating that we are not proficient in Greek as an independent statement.
Hmm… that does seem to be the gist of your assertion, though. You (perhaps unwittingly?) made what’s known as an ‘appeal to authority’, so we’re trying to understand what the particular ‘authority’ is that you’re relying upon. Is it White’s grasp of the Greek language? If so, it should be blindingly easy to state the requirement. (It might take a certain degree of skill to apply it, of course, but I think we’re just interested in what makes the assertion of a distinction between “prescriptive” and “descriptive” – as White posits it – a reasonable heuristic.) If White’s point is valid, it should be relatively easy to substantiate. If the claim is merely “you’re not White, so you can’t possibly understand his argument”, then that’s an argument that simply doesn’t hold up.
  • Why did Trent not challenge that? - And also, why later on even referring to his own statements in the same way? So my question isn’t anything to do with a limitation on us when trying to understand Scripture, that’s a very funny thing to say to a Protestant. But rather that someone who is obviously proficient in many things, have all the reasons to want to challenge that, but didn’t? Maybe he didn’t agree with it, but that just means he didn’t think it mattered.
That was my take on it. Horn was ignoring White’s unsubstantiated assertion as the non-starter that it is. He might have responded “quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur”; but, his lack of response tends to lead in that direction, implicitly.

If you have the time to discuss the question, though, it’s a good one to address in the context of the debate. After all, the crux of the “prescriptive vs descriptive” assertion is that it’s purely an interpretative stance. So… who has the authority to make this assertion – and on whose authority may we discard it? If we accept the assertion on its face, who has the authority to categorize verses as ‘prescriptive’ or ‘descriptive’? As in many debates between Catholics and non-Catholics – especially in debates that hinge on interpretative stances – this one comes down to the question “upon what authority do you interpret Scripture the way you do, and why should I interpret it that way myself?”
 
Good day Merger.

Firstly I see numerous other posters joined in here. You all must understand I neither have the stamina or time to answer every one. The extent to what my mere little opinionated post regarding opinions has brought, is somewhat mind blowing. I referred it to a certain poster whom I have conversed with many times and that was the intent.

Regards
Just want to say I have enjoyed our numerous conversations. 👍 Even though we disagree, you are always respectful and I do believe, a real truth seeker.

God bless.
 
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