Trent Horn debate with James White: watch here!

[PRmerger]

The bible says, “pillar and **buttress **” not foundation. That’s what I’m denying. And, I would stake my salvation on the church being the, “pillar and **buttress **” which is holding up “the truth.”

Sure.

It doesn’t change our argument a single bit.

It’s the Church that is the pillar and buttress of truth.

Not the Bible.

 

[Sr_Brando]

That’s because your position is inconsistent, Brando.

You say the Bible is authoritative…and yet the Bible NEVER STATES THIS, and, in fact, the Bible states that SOMETHING ELSE is what’s authoritative…

and you deny the authority of this SOMETHING ELSE, yet submit to its authority to tell you that Hebrews is theopneustos but that the Epistles of Clement are not.

Isn’t that an incoherent position?

No, I’ve questioned your assertion that “something else” is the authority. You’ve not asked me my position. For which, I think we all know. You see your interpreting 1 Tim 3:15. The Church is what holds up “the truth” for the world to see. Here’s the note from my ESV study bible on verse 15 of 1st Timothy chapter,
“In this very significant verse, Paul states his reason for writing 1 Timothy, providing one of the key NT descriptions of the church’s identity and mission. The use of household (Gk. oikos) and related words to describe the church and its ministry is common in Paul (cf. 1 Cor. 4:1; Gal. 6:10; Eph. 2:19; as well as 1 Tim. 3:4–5, 12, 15; 5:4, 8, 14; cf. 1 Pet. 4:17). It describes the church as God’s family, especially with reference to authority and responsibility within the church and the home. The stress is on God’s authority over the church and the behavior of people in the church. Church of the living God highlights the church as the gathering (Gk. ekklēsia, “assembly”) where God most clearly manifests his presence. Thus, references to God as the “living God” in Scripture often refer to his reality and presence in the community of believers (cf. Num. 14:28; Josh. 3:10; Matt. 16:16; 2 Cor. 6:16; Heb. 3:12; 9:14; 10:31). Identifying the church as a pillar and buttress of the truth is a way of saying that God has entrusted to the church the task of promoting and protecting the gospel (i.e., “the truth”; see note on 1 Tim. 2:4). The architectural imagery presents the church’s responsibility of “holding up” the gospel before a watching world, probably with a view to repelling the attack of false teaching. This picture of the church is striking. The role of advancing the gospel is divinely given to the church, not (at least not in the same way) to any other body. Parachurch organizations have value, but they must support and not supplant the church.”

In not quoting it because it’s authoritative to you. I just want you to know in not coming out of left field. So this verse doesn’t imply to me that the bible says the church is the authority, but that we are responsible for protecting and preserving the gospel. The Church is responsible for upholding and proclaiming the truth which is why Paul’s goes into the very next verse to bare witness to the gospel.

 

[PRmerger]

No, I’ve questioned your assertion that “something else” is the authority.

What you mean, Brando, is that you’ve questioned*** Scripture’s assertion*** that something else is the authority.

 

[Sr_Brando]

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

If the Church is the authority PRIMS, why does can it correct, train and reprove the church? How can the subject under authority correct the one in authority?

This verse, to me, points to the bible being the authority over the Church.

 

[PRmerger]

The Church is responsible for upholding and proclaiming the truth which is why Paul’s goes into the very next verse to bare witness to the gospel.

Yes. This is correct.

Now, think about this: how did the Church receive this truth?

And how did the Church pass on this truth to you and me?

 

[PRmerger]

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

If the Church is the authority PRIMS, why does can it correct, train and reprove the church? How can the subject under authority correct the one in authority?

This verse, to me, points to the bible being the authority over the Church.

But who told you what belongs in the Bible, Brando?

You can’t decide for yourself whether the Epistle to Clement is inspired or the Epistle the Hebrew is.

Once the Church (infallibly) discerned this, then you can be assured that IF it’s in the Bible, it is, indeed, inspired.

 

[PRmerger]

If the Church is the authority PRIMS, why does can it correct, train and reprove the church? How can the subject under authority correct the one in authority?

I don’t understand what this means?

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Go to the following article for the whole argument I’ve read:
christiantruth.com/Beckwith-Response-to-Return-to-Rome.html

Scroll down to the The Glossa Ordinaria section or CRTL ‘F’ and type that in to the search. It should find it pretty quickly.

But, to sum it up, this gloss was used as a tool, a summing up of commentary of the bible, which was highly influential in the 12th and 13th centuries. The gloss always stated that the DC or Apocryphal books were “not in the canon” in the preface of each of those books, as far as I understand. So here is a document, basing commentary on the early church fathers, which states, these books were not canon but “good reads”, being widely used and accepted all over the Western Church. And, yet, the Council of Trent, on the other hand, said to say such a thing would make you anathema.

So in citing William Webster right before the Marian Dogmas section, “It was the Roman Catholic Church, not the Protestant, which was responsible for the introduction of novel teachings very late in the history of the church.” To which, there is plenty of early church fathers who have spoken ont the matter and not given their consent, they disagreed.

Thanks for clarifying.

I read it over.

Explanation:

1. You say that there was no “grand consensus” and that the canonical question was ambiguous until Trent. This misunderstands the history. The Latin Vulgate was the Bible in the West, and the canon of the Latin Vulgate was the Catholic canon.

There arose a scholarly camp that argued that the deuterocanonical books, while Scripture, were of inferior authority to the other (“canonical”) Scriptures: the Glossa ordinaria is the most famous commentary to suggest this. But there are a few things that should be recognized here: (i) this was an isolated, scholarly dispute (even the Glossa ordinaria acknowledges that ordinary believers receive the protocanonical and deuterocanonical books with equal reverence); (ii) the Glossa ordinaria position was rejected by the greatest thinkers of the Medieval period, like Aquinas; and (iii) this was settled by the Church before the Reformation.

Check out the Council of Florence’s Bull of Union with the Copts, in which the Catholic, Orthodox, and Coptic delegates signed a joint declaration of faith containing, amongst other things, an exact canonical list. That was promulgated on 4, 1442.

shamelesspopery.com/reason-1-to-reject-the-reformation-the-canon-of-scripture/

Now, if you want iron clad proof of what Father is saying here, check out the book listing for the Gutenberg bible, straight off the printing press in 1450’s. (about 40 of these still in existence today) It’s the exact same canon list we have today. And that, of course, predates the Council of Trent by 100 years. So this whole myth that has been so often propagated by non-Catholics that the Catholic Church added those 7 books at Trent, holds no water whatsoever. I hope that is not your contention here.

So to recap, I am not, by any means, suggesting there were not isolated, minor disputes and varying opinions about these books throughout the ages. Only that the major disputes were settled with Jerome, who BTW, actually started quoting from them right along side the protocanonicals before his death. So even his position obviously changed.

God bless

 

[Lenten_ashes]

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

If the Church is the authority PRIMS, why does can it correct, train and reprove the church? How can the subject under authority correct the one in authority?

This verse, to me, points to the bible being the authority over the Church.

Brando, the problem is that books don’t interpret themselves.

Someone has to properly interpret that in order to*** correct, train, reprove***.

And*** who*** is that someone since 30-40,000 denominations exist with no doctrinal unity, all reading the same bible and all interpreting it differently?

And why does Peter say it is possible to twist Paul’s words to your own destruction if this is so cut and dry?

2 Peter 3:16New International Version (NIV)

16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

The book of ACTS tells us who that someone was to properly interpret it, and it was the apostolic Church:

Acts 8:30-31English Standard Version (ESV)

30 So Philip ran to him and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?” 31 And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

Notice that it doesn’t say the Ethiopian drew his own conclusions and went and started his own Church.

 

[Sr_Brando]

What you mean, Brando, is that you’ve questioned*** Scripture’s assertion*** that something else is the authority.

No. That’s your personal interpretation of that verse. That’s not even in accordance with your own standard so it’s your personal assertion.

Now, on a different standard of which you disagree with, that is, allowing context of the passage to determine its own meaning, the interpretation is not what you claim. The bible is not saying the church is the authority. The passage is stating that the church points to, i.e. upholds the, authority.

 

[Sr_Brando]

Brando, the problem is that books don’t interpret themselves.

Someone has to properly interpret that in order to*** correct, train, reprove***.

And*** who*** is that someone since 30-40,000 denominations exist with no doctrinal unity, all reading the same bible and all interpreting it differently?

And why does Peter say it is possible to twist Paul’s words to your own destruction if this is so cut and dry?

The book of ACTS tells us who that someone was to properly interpret it, and it was the apostolic Church:

Notice that it doesn’t say the Ethiopian drew his own conclusions and went and started his own Church.

Is the 3rd person of the Holy Trinity still not on the radar add the infallible interpreter if scripture? Jesus told us that the helper, the Holy Spirit, would come and lead us.

 

[Sr_Brando]

Thanks for clarifying.

I read it over.

Explanation:

Now, if you want iron clad proof of what Father is saying here, check out the book listing for the Gutenberg bible, straight off the printing press in 1450’s. (about 40 of these still in existence today) It’s the exact same canon list we have today. And that, of course, predates the Council of Trent by 100 years. So this whole myth that has been so often propagated by non-Catholics that the Catholic Church added those 7 books at Trent, holds no water whatsoever. I hope that is not your contention here.

So to recap, I am not, by any means, suggesting there were not isolated, minor disputes and varying opinions about these books throughout the ages. Only that the major disputes were settled with Jerome, who BTW, actually started quoting from them right along side the protocanonicals before his death. So even his position obviously changed.

God bless

I’ll have to get back to you on the glossa ordinaria. I’m need to do some fact checking if the glossa ordinaria was actually isolated. From what I’ve read, it was wide spread and very influential, which goes contrary to your quote.
The same seems to be true of the Jerome turning around on his decision on what is canon. Catholics argument that he did seem kind of films you but I need to look into that more too.
As to the Gutenberg Bible, if the DC/Apocrapha were put in the same binding with the Latin Vulgate and the Glossa Ordinaria then the protestant explanation still works. It’s not an iron clad one. The bibles of their day always included then bit people were told they are not canonical. So either way works.

 

[pablope]

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

If the Church is the authority PRIMS, why does can it correct, train and reprove the church? How can the subject under authority correct the one in authority?

This verse, to me, points to the bible being the authority over the Church.

Sr Brando…you just did what every protestant does with this passage…ignore the preceeding passages and isolcated this passage.

Here it is, starting at verse 14:

14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

So looking at this passage from verse 14, it is not just Bible alone…as you assert. It includes something else…

So…do you still believe what you stated here…This verse, to me, points to the bible being the authority over the Church…when taking into account verse 14?

 

[LatinRight]

Is the 3rd person of the Holy Trinity still not on the radar add the infallible interpreter if scripture? Jesus told us that the helper, the Holy Spirit, would come and lead us.

God bless Sr_Brando,

Looks like to me you are Sr_Brando an UNDERCOVER CATHOLIC. Ha ha

The Catholic Understanding of the Bible by Fr. John Harden SJ.

Quote: “The Scriptures are holy because their main author is the all-holy God. But they are also holy because they are able to sanctify those who READ the Bible as NO OTHER LITERATURE in the world is capable of doing.

**St. Thomas does not hesitate to speak of the Scriptures as a KIND OF SACRAMENT.

SIMULAR to what happens when we receive BAPTISM or the EUCHARIST.**

The same Holy Spirit who first inspired the Bible ** CONTINUES TO ENLIGHTEN thosewho now READ the Bible.”** End quote. Emphasize mine.

[CCC 108]; Still, the Christian faith is not a “religion of the book.”

Christianity is a religion of the “Word” of God, “not a written and mute word, but incarnate and living.”

If the Scriptures are not remain a dead letter, **Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, “open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures.” **End quote.

God bless.

LatinRight

 

[LatinRight]

Latin rite,

You are correct. God knows who was saved or not from the beginning and he even knew Lucifer would betray him as well. He wouldn’t be God if he didn’t know all that.

And I understand what you are saying now.

My next question is about the language of the material you quoted from.

Wondering if that is official Church teaching you quoted from? We have a lot of Theologians who’s words get tossed around as if it were, so that’s why i ask.

Thank you and God bless you.

God bless Lenten_ashes,

I have quoted only from the CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA, THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect and from the Scripture.

**I’m 100 % sure **we can trust the teaching of the Catholic Church as follows, furthermore it is completely in harmony with the Scripture.

**The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a *DE FIDE *Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty).

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect**

Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful

figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a list which

contains the names of ALL THE ELECT and admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO ERASURES.

(2) The second quality of predestination, the DEFINITENESS of the number of the elect,

follows NATURALLY from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the

predestined is UNCHANGEABLE, then the number of the predestined must likewise be

UNCHANGEABLE and DEFINITE, subject NEITHER to ADDITIONS nor to

CANCELLATIONS. Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of

certitude in God’s knowledge and would DESTROY His omniscience. End quote. Emphasis added.

Romans 8:29
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.

Romans 8:30
And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified; these he also glorified.

1. Foreknew. – Those whom He foreknew he also predestined.
2. Predestined. – Those whom He predestined he also called.
3. Called. – Those whom He called he also justified.
4. Justified. – Those whom He justified he also glorified.
5. Glorified

It is a theological fact: God only called into His service those who are predestined to heaven no one else. – Rom.8:29-30.

2 Tim.1:9; “God who saved us and called us with holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS, but ACCORDING TO HIS OWN PURPOSE …”

Eph.1:11; “… being predestined ACCORDING TO THE PURPOSE of Him …”

What purpose God would have to call the reprobates into His service when God erased their names from the Book of Life, predestined them to hell before the foundation of the world for their vehement rejection of God and His grace?

God bless.

LatinRight

 

[LatinRight]

Sr Brando…you just did what every protestant does with this passage…ignore the preceeding passages and isolcated this passage.

Here it is, starting at verse 14:

14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

So looking at this passage from verse 14, it is not just Bible alone…as you assert. It includes something else…

So…do you still believe what you stated here…This verse, to me, points to the bible being the authority over the Church…when taking into account verse 14?

God bless Pablope,

CCC 86 “Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant.It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith.”

God bless

LatinRight

 

[LatinRight]

Sr Brando…you just did what every protestant does with this passage…ignore the preceeding passages and isolcated this passage.

Here it is, starting at verse 14:

14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

So looking at this passage from verse 14, it is not just Bible alone…as you assert. It includes something else…

So…do you still believe what you stated here…This verse, to me, points to the bible being the authority over the Church…when taking into account verse 14?

God bless Pablope,

CCC 86 “Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith.”

CCC 108 Still, the Christian faith is not a “religion of the book.” Christianity is the religion of the “Word” of God, a word which is “not a written and mute word, but the Word which is incarnate and living”. If the Scriptures are not to remain a dead letter, Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, “open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures.”

God bless

LatinRight

 

[LatinRight]

Thanks for the response. It was a little to detailed and spread out for me. I had a hard time understanding it. So can’t say you are right or wrong. I did some searching on my own and from what I found I would say you are probably mostly correct, you are just leaving out another part to the story.

This is what I found, I bolded what you sited and other important parts

I’m sorry if I am miss understanding this, I’m still learning, but I thought it was a process not one event. Could you please add some links or something. I am having a hard time seeing if you are giving your opinion or true Catholic teaching. I am also having a hard time understanding the point you are trying to make.
Sure there are elect, sure there are reprobates. However, we have no way of judging who is elect and who is reprobate.
I think the extension, of your quote, that I quote pretty much contradicts the statement:
Not only are we able to know if we are reprobate or elect. I believe God wrote or didn’t write our name in the book of life because he was able to see if we were elect or reprobate in an instant, because he could see the summation of our entire life in an instant.
The thread is about the debate “Can a Christian lose their Salvation”. Are you saying no? Because your post seems to allude to that response but never comes right out and says it.
Thanks

God bless MT1926,

Your question:
The thread is about the debate “Can a Christian lose their Salvation”. Are you saying no?

My answer:
I don’t believe a reprobate can be saved. As a Catholic, this is the best answer I free to give.

Justification is a one instant event (initial justification), and a continues event from baptism until we die.

As God’s child/elect, Initial Justification gives us the irrevocable legal right to enter heaven as God’s free gift.

The continues event in our justification starts after baptism and continues until we die.

At this time period we work on to improve our justification and sanctification and we do every kind of Christian works by co-operating with the grace of God.

For this works is up to supernatural merit God gives us reward at the judgment of our works. – 1 Cor.3:12-15.

If all our works rejected by God we will enter heaven without any reward.

For enter heaven is God’s free gift, our position and glory in heaven is determined by God at the judgment of our works.

Concerning your quote MT1926. I never read it before. There are countless teachings and reading materials around which are not accepted by the Catholic Church.

What I have quoted on predestination the Catholic Church affirmed as DE FIDE Dogma. So we not only can trust it, but it is on the highest level of binding theological certainty, we can be certain it is correct.

I made a point that an elect predestined to heaven cannot end up in hell and a reprobate predestined to hell cannot end up in heaven.

In my opinion, when we quote a DE FIDE Dogma of the Catholic Church we can believe that quote is correct.

To do supernatural works which God rewards is not easy, the standard is very high.

**CONDITIONS THAT OUR WORKS (OUR DEEDS) COUNT FOR ANYTHING

Conditions MUST BE PRESENT to make SUPERNATURAL MERIT possible.**

The meritorious work must be morally good, that is, in accordance with the moral law in its

object, intent, and circumstances.

It MUST be done FREELY, WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY.

It MUST be SUPERNATURAL, that is, AROUSED and ACCOMPANIED by ACTUAL

GRACE, and proceeding from a SUPERNATURAL motive.

Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the

Church (Denzinger 1576, 1582).

JUSTIFICATION IN CATHOLIC TEACHING by Jimmy Akin

Quote: “The essence of supernatural love is unselfishness—doing something **NOT

BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW,** but because we want to do it **out of SHEER

LOVE** for the other person, whether that person is God or one of our fellow human beings

out of the love of God.

This is THE ONLY KIND of love that ultimately pleases God and therefore the **ONLY

KIND** that ultimately gets us a reward IN heaven.” End quote. Emphasize mine.

God bless.

LatinRight

 

[LatinRight]

Thanks for the response. It was a little to detailed and spread out for me. I had a hard time understanding it. So can’t say you are right or wrong. I did some searching on my own and from what I found I would say you are probably mostly correct, you are just leaving out another part to the story.
This is what I found, I bolded what you sited and other important parts
I’m sorry if I am miss understanding this, I’m still learning, but I thought it was a process not one event. Could you please add some links or something. I am having a hard time seeing if you are giving your opinion or true Catholic teaching. I am also having a hard time understanding the point you are trying to make.
Sure there are elect, sure there are reprobates. However, we have no way of judging who is elect and who is reprobate.
I think the extension, of your quote, that I quote pretty much contradicts the statement:
Not only are we able to know if we are reprobate or elect. I believe God wrote or didn’t write our name in the book of life because he was able to see if we were elect or reprobate in an instant, because he could see the summation of our entire life in an instant.
The thread is about the debate “Can a Christian lose their Salvation”. Are you saying no? Because your post seems to allude to that response but never comes right out and says it.

Thanks

God bless MT1926,

Your question:
The thread is about the debate “Can a Christian lose their Salvation”. Are you saying no?

My answer:
I don’t believe a reprobate can be saved. As a Catholic this is the best answer I free to give.

Justification is a one instant event (initial justification), and a continues event from baptism until we die.

As God’s child/elect, Initial Justification gives us the irrevocable legal right to enter heaven as God’s free gift.

The continues event in our justification starts after baptism and continues until we die.

At this time period we work on to improve our justification and sanctification and we do every kind of Christian works by co-operating with the grace of God.

For this works is up to supernatural merit God gives us reward at the judgment of our works. – 1 Cor.3:12-15.

If all our works rejected by God we will enter heaven without any reward.

To enter heaven is God’s free gift, our position and glory in heaven is determined by God at the judgment of our works.

Only our supernatural works/supernatural merit accepted by God, any other kind of works are wood, hay and straw rejected by God.

To do supernatural works which God rewards is not easy, the standard is very high.

**CONDITIONS THAT OUR WORKS (OUR DEEDS) COUNT FOR ANYTHING

Conditions MUST BE PRESENT to make SUPERNATURAL MERIT possible.**

The meritorious work must be morally good, that is, in accordance with the moral law in its

object, intent, and circumstances.

It MUST be done FREELY, WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY.

It MUST be SUPERNATURAL, that is, AROUSED and ACCOMPANIED by ACTUAL

GRACE, and proceeding from a SUPERNATURAL motive.

Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the

Church (Denzinger 1576, 1582).

JUSTIFICATION IN CATHOLIC TEACHING by Jimmy Akin

Quote: “The essence of supernatural love is unselfishness—doing something **NOT

BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW,** but because we want to do it **out of SHEER

LOVE** for the other person, whether that person is God or one of our fellow human beings

out of the love of God.

This is THE ONLY KIND of love that ultimately pleases God and therefore the **ONLY

KIND** that ultimately gets us a reward IN heaven.” End quote. Emphasize mine.

Concerning your quote MT1926. I never read it before. There are countless teachings and reading materials around which are not accepted by the Catholic Church.

What I have quoted on predestination the Catholic Church affirmed as DE FIDE Dogma. So we not only can trust it, but it is on the highest level of binding theological certainty, we can be certain it is correct.

I made a point that an elect predestined to heaven cannot end up in hell and a reprobate predestined to hell cannot end up in heaven.

In my opinion, when we quote a DE FIDE Dogma of the Catholic Church we can believe that quote is correct.

God bless.

LatinRight

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Is the 3rd person of the Holy Trinity still not on the radar add the infallible interpreter if scripture? Jesus told us that the helper, the Holy Spirit, would come and lead us.

Hi Brando,

Yes, but this is where we sort of go around in circles.

I’m assuming all 30-40,000 denominations read this and think they are guided into “all truth”:

John 16:13New Life Version (NLV)

13 The Holy Spirit is coming. He will lead you into all truth. He will not speak His Own words. He will speak what He hears. He will tell you of things to come

I know that the protestants i know believe that. I believed that as a protestant.

But there are problems…

Jesus is talking to the apostles there. The apostolic Church is the one guided into “all truth” not the common Joe who picks up the bible on his own and thinks he has things figured out.

If that were the case, there wouldn’t be 30-40,000 denominations all reading the same bible and all interpreting it differently.

Not saying baptized non-Catholics do not have the Spirit, they absolutely do. But obviously, the Holy Spirit is not going to tell one denomination that you can lose your salvation, then tell others you can not. He is not going to tell one denomination that baptism is necessary and tell others it is not, etc, etc.

God the Father is not in heaven arguing with God the Son as to whether it’s ok to baptize infants. Truth is truth and it’s unchanging. The question is, who has that truth? Where is this particular Church that has the authority to call councils (ACTS 15) and to settle disputes (Matt 18:17) and to forgive sins (John 20:21-23)? where is this Church that is the pillar and bulwark of the truth? ( 1 Tim 3:15)? Does it exist? If not, why not?

Thanks