Trent Horn debate with James White: watch here!

[pablope]

Latin. Thanks for the response and thanks for reading Jimmy’s article.

I’m sorry about your hearing. I really enjoy Dr. Anders, wish you could listen to him.

He has a website with his articles here:

calvin2catholic.com/

I typed out a transcript of the episode I wanted you to listen to. I hope this helps.

OK?

Continued in next post…

I think I listened to this episode. Was this not just a few weeks ago?

 

[MT1926]

You transcribed all of that, MT1926? That’s very generous of you, thanks for doing so.

Thank you

I really like Dr. Anders. What he said in that episode was profound. I think every Catholic should listen to that episode and have confidence that we will persevere to the end.

God Bless

 

[MT1926]

I think I listened to this episode. Was this not just a few weeks ago?

Yes I believe it was the 2/28/17 episode. I put the link in my post up above.

Just the way he explains the faith is so insightful to me. He seems to be talking just slightly above my level. Simple enough for me to understand, with the occassional bits of knowledge that I haven’t heard before.

God bless

 

[LatinRight]

God bless MT1926,

**Thanks you very much for your post.

You really did a very good job. It is clear and reasonably easy to understand.**

I already read it once, but I didn’t have time yet to go into a deep study in the context of the Catholic teachings and the Scripture, for to do that need time, and I hardly wait to start to do it.

It seems to me it is relatively easy to understand the meanings.

I’m glad you sent me this article because this is the first written article I have on this subject.

It is very important to understand this article/issue correctly because if we misunderstand it my cost us all our supernatural merit.

**According to the teaching of the Catholic Church, to do supernatural merit the standard is very high and the conditions are uncompromising.

CONDITIONS THAT OUR WORKS (OUR DEEDS) COUNT FOR ANYTHING

Conditions MUST BE PRESENT to make SUPERNATURAL MERIT possible.**

The meritorious work must be morally good, that is, in accordance with the moral law in its

object, intent, and circumstances.

It MUST be done FREELY, WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY.

It MUST be SUPERNATURAL, that is, AROUSED and ACCOMPANIED by ACTUAL

GRACE, and proceeding from a SUPERNATURAL motive.

Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the

Church (Denzinger 1576, 1582).

JUSTIFICATION IN CATHOLIC TEACHING by Jimmy Akin

Quote: “The essence of supernatural love is unselfishness—doing something NOT

BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW, but because we want to do it out of SHEER

LOVE for the other person, whether that person is God or one of our fellow human beings

out of the love of God.

This is THE ONLY KIND of love that ultimately pleases God and therefore the ONLY

KIND that ultimately gets us a reward IN heaven.” End quote. Emphasize mine.

If we not set free to love freely, we cannot love.

If we not set free to freely decide to work, we cannot do supernatural work/merit.

We cannot please God with the work we MUST do, because we cannot do it FREELY,

WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY. **– The work we

MUST do is NOT supernatural work!!!**

MUST always kills our supernatural works/good works.

**Supernatural work is: **

Doing something, DECIDED FREELY without the fear of hell,

**work done **NOT BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW,

**but because **we want to do it out of SHEER LOVE for the Glory of God, or help other person out of sheer love.

God bless.

LatinRight

 

[MT1926]

God bless MT1926,

**Thanks you very much for your post.

You really did a very good job. It is clear and reasonably easy to understand.**

You are very welcome. I was happy to do it.

I already read it once, but I didn’t have time yet to go into a deep study in the context of the Catholic teachings and the Scripture, for to do that need time, and I hardly wait to start to do it.

It seems to me it is relatively easy to understand the meanings.

I’m glad you sent me this article because this is the first written article I have on this subject.

It is very important to understand this article/issue correctly because if we misunderstand it my cost us all our supernatural merit.

I agree, I have listened to it and read it several times. He makes some very good points that I believe all Catholics should understand.

**According to the teaching of the Catholic Church, to do supernatural merit the standard is very high and the conditions are uncompromising.

CONDITIONS THAT OUR WORKS (OUR DEEDS) COUNT FOR ANYTHING

Conditions MUST BE PRESENT to make SUPERNATURAL MERIT possible.**

The meritorious work must be morally good, that is, in accordance with the moral law in its

object, intent, and circumstances.

It MUST be done FREELY, WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY.

It MUST be SUPERNATURAL, that is, AROUSED and ACCOMPANIED by ACTUAL

GRACE, and proceeding from a SUPERNATURAL motive.

Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the

Church (Denzinger 1576, 1582).

Yeah I don’t think supernatural merit is as easy as people think.

When I’m sitting there on judgement day, I am well prepared to hear the words of Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior…

HEY PETER, GO GRAB ME THE PITCHFORK, THIS ONES GOT A LOT OF HAY AND STRAW!

All I can say is I am persevering. I am sure I have done some meritorious works in my life. I am also sure I have build some works out of gold that turned to straw as well as some works that started as straw and I was somehow given the grace to turn them to gold. In the end it’s all for Jesus. All I can do is my human best. Sometimes I can work with the grace given me but sometimes I get overwhelmed and irritated by His gifts. That’s when it is time to hit the box…forgive me father for I have sinned…AGAIN

JUSTIFICATION IN CATHOLIC TEACHING by Jimmy Akin

Quote: “The essence of supernatural love is unselfishness—doing something NOT

BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW, but because we want to do it out of SHEER

LOVE for the other person, whether that person is God or one of our fellow human beings

out of the love of God.

This is THE ONLY KIND of love that ultimately pleases God and therefore the ONLY

KIND that ultimately gets us a reward IN heaven.” End quote. Emphasize mine.

I am praying for you brother.

It’s all about perseverance. Like Dr. Anders tells us…We just need to keep the Catholic Church in our corner and we will have no option but to persevere. I truly believe Jesus left us a visible shepherd on this earth…

John 21:15-19
Jesus and Peter
15 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my lambs.” 16 A second time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Tend my sheep.” 17 He said to him the third time, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” Peter felt hurt because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” And he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” **Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep. **18 Very truly, I tell you, when you were younger, you used to fasten your own belt and to go wherever you wished. But when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will fasten a belt around you and take you where you do not wish to go.” 19 (He said this to indicate the kind of death by which he would glorify God.) After this he said to him, “Follow me.”

WE ARE BUT SHEEP

God Bless

 

[LatinRight]

You are very welcome. I was happy to do it.

I agree, I have listened to it and read it several times. He makes some very good points that I believe all Catholics should understand.

Yeah I don’t think supernatural merit is as easy as people think.

When I’m sitting there on judgement day, I am well prepared to hear the words of Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior…

HEY PETER, GO GRAB ME THE PITCHFORK, THIS ONES GOT A LOT OF HAY AND STRAW!

All I can say is I am persevering. I am sure I have done some meritorious works in my life. I am also sure I have build some works out of gold that turned to straw as well as some works that started as straw and I was somehow given the grace to turn them to gold. In the end it’s all for Jesus. All I can do is my human best. Sometimes I can work with the grace given me but sometimes I get overwhelmed and irritated by His gifts. That’s when it is time to hit the box…forgive me father for I have sinned…AGAIN



I am praying for you brother.

It’s all about perseverance. Like Dr. Anders tells us…We just need to keep the Catholic Church in our corner and we will have no option but to persevere. I truly believe Jesus left us a visible shepherd on this earth…

John 21:15-19
Jesus and Peter
15 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my lambs.” 16 A second time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Tend my sheep.” 17 He said to him the third time, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” Peter felt hurt because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” And he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” **Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep. **18 Very truly, I tell you, when you were younger, you used to fasten your own belt and to go wherever you wished. But when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will fasten a belt around you and take you where you do not wish to go.” 19 (He said this to indicate the kind of death by which he would glorify God.) After this he said to him, “Follow me.”

WE ARE BUT SHEEP

God Bless

God bless MT1926 and every reader of the CAF,

I’m sorry I didn’t answer your post earlier.

I was busy with another Forum, Non – Catholic Religions.

The thread is: God’s Foreknowledge and Predestination – And More! [Akin]

If you have time please read it, posts # 4 – 10.

That will answer our dialog what we had in this thread.

If you have time to read it, if possible, I like you have your view on those posts. In particular posts # 5 and 6.

If possible, I like to have your view on the Non – Catholic Religions Forum.

God bless.

LatinRight

 

[MT1926]

God bless MT1926 and every reader of the CAF,

I’m sorry I didn’t answer your post earlier.

Thanks for the response Latin. I’ve been thinking about you.

Did you talk to your priest?

I was busy with another Forum, Non – Catholic Religions.

The thread is: God’s Foreknowledge and Predestination – And More! [Akin]

If you have time please read it, posts # 4 – 10.

That will answer our dialog what we had in this thread.

If you have time to read it, if possible, I like you have your view on those posts. In particular posts # 5 and 6.

If possible, I like to have your view on the Non – Catholic Religions Forum.

God bless.

LatinRight

I’m not sure what you are looking for from me Latin? Your posts just seem to be copy and pasted from what we already discussed and my answers would be the same as they were on this thread.

I’m a little confused why you would post on that thread? The OP wanted to discuss Jimmy Akin’s view of predestination, which you are unable to listen to. I would be happy to type out a transcript of Jimmy’s answer if you would like to read it. However, the answers you posted on that thread had nothing to do with the OP’s question or related to what Jimmy said in that episode.

One question you said:

ABOUT FREE WILL

There is NO WAY that God’s ABSOLUTE foreknowledge stops you to do anything or make you to do anything.

Foreknowledge is NOT Predestination.

Some people wrongly believe:
God predestined the elect by using His foreknowledge and to see who are those who made it to heaven and who are those who made it to hell and God made His predestination accordingly.

This is not so because:
Without our predestination to heaven and without God’s special grace The “Gift of Final Perseverance,” God would see: We all going to hell.

It is common knowledge, God’s will is that everyone saved but not everyone wants to be saved.

Where did this come from? Could you please point me to where I could find this Catholic teaching?

Did you speak with your priest?

Did you do any more reading from Dr. Ander’s website?

What’s your thoughts on what Dr. Anders had to say?

God Bless

 

[LatinRight]

Thanks for the response Latin. I’ve been thinking about you.

Did you talk to your priest?

I’m not sure what you are looking for from me Latin? Your posts just seem to be copy and pasted from what we already discussed and my answers would be the same as they were on this thread.

I’m a little confused why you would post on that thread? The OP wanted to discuss Jimmy Akin’s view of predestination, which you are unable to listen to. I would be happy to type out a transcript of Jimmy’s answer if you would like to read it. However, the answers you posted on that thread had nothing to do with the OP’s question or related to what Jimmy said in that episode.

One question you said:

Where did this come from? Could you please point me to where I could find this Catholic teaching?

Did you speak with your priest?

Did you do any more reading from Dr. Ander’s website?

What’s your thoughts on what Dr. Anders had to say?

God Bless

God bless MT and every readers of the CAF,

Yes I have spoken with the Priest as I promised, but even before I have spoken with the Priest, after I read Jimmy Akin’s article on anathema I decided I stay in the Catholic Church.

Unfortunately I couldn’t listen to Jimmy Akin’s view on predestination.
So I posted Catholic teachings on predestination.

I know Jimmy Akin believes the view of Thomism about Predestination.
I read some of his article on predestination, I have the same view on predestination.

I believe the teachings of Thomas Aquinas on Predestination, so as Fr. William Most, Jimmy Akin and many other Catholics.

I study the teachings of the Catholic Church on predestination about three years.
Believe me MT I know the Catholic Church teachings on Predestination down to the finest details.

But if not too much trouble for you MT, I would like if you post me a short summary of Jimmy Akin’s teaching on Predestination.

On forum: Non – Catholic Religions.
Thread: God’s Foreknowledge and Predestination – And More! [Akin]
Posts: # 5 and 6, I have written St. Augustine’s, St. Thomas Aquina’s, Fr. William Most’s and Jimmy Akin’s, etc. teachings on Predestination which I also believe.

Posts: # 5 and 6, is NOT the same what I have posted before, only some parts is the same.

I have written crucially important theological facts in posts # 5 and 6 what you have maybe overlooked.

If you MT read these two post very carefully:

1. You know, God not only wants His children/elect to know their standing, God even COMMANDS His children/elect to test their faith/their position that they are elect or reprobates.
2. If you read these posts carefully and obey God’s COMMAND and you do the test, you will know exactly you are an elect or a reprobate.
3. No teaching can override the Word of God, God’s COMMAND IS TO TEST your faith and TO KNOW your faith that are you and an elect or a reprobate!

**Christ warned us, many false prophets will rise and deceive many, if possible even the elect. **– Matt.24:4, 11, 24.

Any teachings contradict or trying to water down 2 Cor.13:5-6; John 5:24; 1 John 5:13; etc. by teaching some people can lose salvation, and at the same time, they fail to explain who are those who are in Catholic theology can lose salvation hiding the CRUCIAL TRUTH / FACTS and maybe without their intention, they keeping many GOD’S ELECT IN SPIRITUAL DARKNESS in fear in a paralysed state and their great Commission become their great Omission.

The truth and theological fact is:
In Catholic theology only the reprobates can and all lose salvation who are for their vehement rejection of God and His glace their names taken out from the Book of Life before the foundation of the world and they all Predestined to hell before the foundation of the world.

**Reprobates are reprobates because of their vehement rejection of God and His grace, **they don’t believe the Word of God and they don’t BELIEVE in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, they don’t have a desire to go to heaven, they don’t have a desire to live in heaven forever with God.

So the above Bible verses are stands and mean what they proclaiming because ONLY THE ELECT believe the Word of God and only the elect believe the name of the Son of God and they MAY KNOW that they have eternal life. – 2 Cor.13:5-6; 5:24; 1 John 5:13; etc.

I make you comfortable MT.
I put those two posts # 5 and 6 here as follows.
Please read them very carefully down to the finest details, otherwise easy to miss the crucial theological truth/facts.

I will answer your last question MT tomorrow in another post.

Continue

 

[LatinRight]

Continuation

Tuesday, April 2, 2013 Fr. William Most
What does the Catholic Church teach on Predestination?

Fr. Most himself leans toward a school of thought known as Thomism, which he develops in summary as follows:

Predestination is gratuitous: … for even before God considers human merits, He predestines, and because the sole and total cause of predestination is the goodness and love of the Father which moves spontaneously WITHOUT stimulus, merit, or condition. End quote.

Fr. Most’s teachings is in perfect harmony with St. Augustine on Grace and predestination, Council of Orange (#329.2), CCC 2022; etc.

Christ also states in John 15:5 “… Apart from Me you can do nothing.”

We can make our first supernatural decision or we can do supernatural work AFTER we have been predestined/being in Christ!!!

“He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, …having been predestined us to adoption.” (Eph.1:4-5).

With our predestination to heaven, from the point of our baptism, we have irrevocable salvation, protected by God’s special grace “The Gift of Final Perseverance.”

But the two predestinations in Catholic theology make this situation a bit complicated.

One predestination is to Glory for God’s Children/elect.
Every predestined to Glory end up in heaven, they cannot lose their salvation.

The other predestination is: **
Predestination to grace for some of the reprobates **whose names taken out from the Book of Life before the foundation of the world for their vehement rejection of God and His grace.

Because **every reprobate predestined to hell **before the foundation of the world.

So every reprobates who are predestined to grace too and some period of their life become Christians they must lose their salvation and they all must end up in hell.

The “Elect Christians” and the “Reprobate Christians” are two TOTALLY different groups of people.

**One of the most significant differences is: **
The contents of the memory and the will of the “Elect Christians” and the “Reprobate Christians” are FUNDAMENTALLY and TOTALLY different.

THE CONTENTS OF THE MEMORY AND THE WILL OF THE “ELECT CHRISTIANS”

1. God predestined the elect to heaven.
   God also put into the memory and the will of the elect the desire to go to heaven.
2. God has given His elect the gift of everlasting life.
   God also put into the memory and the will of the elect the desire to have everlasting life.
3. God has given His elect His gift of final perseverance.
   God also put into the memory and the will of the elect the desire to persevere to the end of life.

THE CONTENTS OF THE MEMORY AND THE WILL OF THE “REPROBATE-CHRISTIANS”

(Pease keep in mind, the reprobates are reprobates because of their vehement rejection of God and His grace and their names taken out from the Book of Life and they all predestined to hell before the foundation of the world.)

Matt.7:6 “Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you.”

Jesus addresses the above insulting labels to anyone inhospitable to the Gospel. – Believe me, for their vehement rejection of God and His grace, – seems to me the reprobates are inhospitable to the Gospel.

1. God did not predestine the “Reprobate-Christians” to heaven.
   God did not put into the memory and the will of the “Reprobate-Christians” the desire to go to heaven.
2. God did not give the “Reprobate- Christians” the gift of everlasting life.
   God did not put into the memory and the will of the “Reprobate-Christians” the desire to have everlasting life. – How could God give the “Reprobate-Christians” His gift of everlasting life when God predestined all of them to hell before the foundation of the world?
3. God did not give the “Reprobate-Christians” His gift of final perseverance.
   God did not put into the memory and the will of the “Reprobate-Christians” the desire to persevere to the end of life.

Continue

 

[LatinRight]

Continuation

SUMMARY OF THE CONTENTS OF THE MEMORY AND THE WILL OF THE ELECT AND THE “REPROBATE-CHRISTIANS”

The memory and the will of the Elect:

1. The memory and the will contain the desire to go to heaven.
2. The memory and the will contain the desire to have everlasting life.
3. The memory and the will contain the desire to persevere to the end of life.

The memory and the will of the “Reprobate-Christians:”

1. The memory and the will is not contains the desire to go to heaven.
2. The memory and the will is not contains the desire to have everlasting life.
3. The memory and the will is not contains the desire to persevere to the end of life.

SUMMARY

a. The memory and the will of the elect contain the desire to go to heaven, to have everlasting life and to persevere to the end of life.

b. The memory and the will of the “Reprobate-Christians” not contain the desire to go to heaven, or to have everlasting life, or to persevere to the end of life.

As we see above, the contents of the memory and the will of the “Elect Christians” and the “Reprobate Christians” are FUNDAMENTALLY and ABSOLUTELY different.

**In 2 Cor.13:5-6 God has given us a COMMAND and we MUST obey it! **

2 Cor.13:5-6; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)

“Examine yourselves, to see whether you are holding to your faith.

TEST YOURSELVES.

Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you? – unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

I hope YOU WILL FIND OUT that we have not failed. End quote

To know the test result, we only need to know the contents of our memory and will and the test is done, we obeyed God’s command.

Seems to me God really cares for us, including our faith, our peace and our mental health.

Feeling uncertainty or worry about our destiny (heaven or hell) can paralyze a person and the great commission of Matt.28:19-20 become the great omission.

**CATHOLIC ANSWERS MAGAZINE - September/October 2014

IN THIS ISSUE:

WHY CATHOLICS DON’T EVANGELIZE by Hector Molina – Catholics have been given the gift of the truth—so why are we reluctant to share it with others? Here’s why, and how to overcome it.**

CAM has an excellent article Why Catholics Don’t Evangelize.

The magazine had **a sad joke on the cover **which said,

Q: “What do you get if you cross a Catholic with a Jehovah’s Witness?”

A: “Someone who knocks on your door and says nothing.”

Catholics have been given the gift of the truth—so why are we reluctant to share it with others? Here’s why, and how to overcome it.

Quote: **It’s no secret that Catholics aren’t renowned for their evangelistic prowess or missionary zeal. **

This is despite the fact that the last several pontiffs, including Pope Francis, have written and spoken extensively on the subject, which has become a renewed priority for the Church.

In Matthew 28:19, our Lord enjoined the apostles, “[G]o therefore and make disciples of all nations.”

In Mark 16:15, Jesus commands them, “[G]o into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation.”

This is what is referred to as the Great Commission.

Sadly, for many Catholics, the Great Commission has become the Great Omission.

**Why is this so? Why don’t Catholics as a whole evangelize? **

FEAR

If you were to survey a group of Catholics about what holds them back from sharing the Faith, the No. 1 response you would get is “Fear.”

FEAR PARALYZES many believers from living out their faith and sharing it with others.

There is a fundamental principle at work here, one summarized by the old Latin axiom Nemo dat quod non habet (“No one gives WHAT HE DOES NOT HAVE”).

One cannot share Christ if one has not FIRST ENCOUNTERED CHRIST, or effectively share the gospel without experiencing its power in his own life. End quote.

God bless.

LatinRight

 

[LatinRight]

God bless MT and every readers of the CAF,

**I HAVE WRITTEN AS FOLLOWS ABOUT FREE WILL

Quote: Some people wrongly believe:**
God predestined the elect by using His foreknowledge and to see who are those who made it to heaven and who are those who made it to hell and God made His predestination accordingly.

This is not so because:
Without our predestination to heaven and without God’s special grace The “Gift of Final Perseverance,” God would see: We all going to hell. End quote.

YOU ASKED MT

1. Where did this come from? Could you please point me to where I could find this Catholic teaching?
2. What’s your thoughts on what Dr. Anders had to say?

**ANSWER OF THE FIRST QUESTION

THE PROTECTION OF THE ELECT/CHURCH**

Quote: St. Thomas Aquinas, In his Summa Theologiae he wrote:

[P]erseverance is called he abiding in good TO the end of life.

And in order to have this perseverance man . . . needs the divine assistance guiding him and guarding him against the attacks of the passions . . . that he may be kept from evil TILL the end of his life (ST IIa:109:10)

This same teaching was infallibly taught by the Council of Trent after the Protestant Reformation.

A Tiptoe Through TULIP by James Akin

Quote: Trent’s Decree of Justification, canon 16, speaks of “That Great and Special Gift of Final Perseverance,” and chapter 13 of the decree speaks of "the gift of perseverance of which it is written:

‘He who perseveres to the end shall be saved [Matt. 10:22, 24:13],’ Which cannot be obtained from anyone except from Him who is able to make him who stands to stand [Rom. 14:4]."

Aquinas said it always saves a person because of the kind of grace it is; The gift of final perseverance always works.

Catholics even have a special name for the GRACE God gives these people: “the gift of final perseverance.”

The Church formally teaches that there is a gift of final perseverance. [43] Aquinas (and even Molina) said this grace always ensures that a person will persevere. [44] Aquinas said, “Predestination [to final salvation] most certainly and infallibly takes effect.”

In order to have this perseverance man…needs the divine assistance guiding and guarding him against the attacks of the passions…” End quote

Continues

 

[LatinRight]

Thanks for the response Latin. I’ve been thinking about you.

Where did this come from? Could you please point me to where I could find this Catholic teaching?

Did you do any more reading from Dr. Ander’s website?

What’s your thoughts on what Dr. Anders had to say?

God Bless

God bless MT and every readers of the CAF,

**I HAVE WRITTEN AS FOLLOWS ABOUT FREE WILL

Quote: Some people wrongly believe:**
God predestined the elect by using His foreknowledge and to see who are those who made it to heaven and who are those who made it to hell and God made His predestination accordingly.

This is not so because:
Without our predestination to heaven and without God’s special grace The “Gift of Final Perseverance,” God would see: We all going to hell. End quote.

YOU ASKED MT

1. Where did this come from? Could you please point me to where I could find this Catholic teaching?
2. What’s your thoughts on what Dr. Anders had to say?

**ANSWER OF THE FIRST QUESTION

THE PROTECTION OF THE ELECT/CHURCH**

Quote: St. Thomas Aquinas, In his Summa Theologiae he wrote:

[P]erseverance is called he abiding in good TO the end of life.

And in order to have this perseverance man . . . needs the divine assistance guiding him and guarding him against the attacks of the passions . . . that he may be kept from evil TILL the end of his life (ST IIa:109:10)

This same teaching was infallibly taught by the Council of Trent after the Protestant Reformation.

A Tiptoe Through TULIP by James Akin

Quote: Trent’s Decree of Justification, canon 16, speaks of “That Great and Special Gift of Final Perseverance,” and chapter 13 of the decree speaks of "the gift of perseverance of which it is written:

‘He who perseveres to the end shall be saved [Matt. 10:22, 24:13],’ Which cannot be obtained from anyone except from Him who is able to make him who stands to stand [Rom. 14:4]."

Aquinas said it always saves a person because of the kind of grace it is; The gift of final perseverance always works.

Catholics even have a special name for the GRACE God gives these people: “the gift of final perseverance.”

The Church formally teaches that there is a gift of final perseverance. [43] Aquinas (and even Molina) said this grace always ensures that a person will persevere. [44] Aquinas said, “Predestination [to final salvation] most certainly and infallibly takes effect.”

In order to have this perseverance man…needs the divine assistance guiding and guarding him against the attacks of the passions…” End quote

Continues

 

[LatinRight]

Continuation

A CRUCIAL QUESTION

Does God’s gift of “Final Perseverance” protect the elect/Church not to get into some kind of heresies?

If someone doesn’t know:

The Body of Christ/the combined elect is the Church of the living God the pillar and ground of the truth.

Wherever they are, regardless of which Christian denomination they belong to or an elect on a deserted island or those elect who are in the Amazon rainforest. – CCC 818, 819, 1271.

**THE ANSWER OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST

Matt.24:4, 11, 24;**

“Watch out that no one deceives you. Many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.

For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive if possible, even the elect. End quote.

As we see above, it is a possibility that the elect/Church can be deceived and can believe some heresies.

But we also know, this deception cannot be that serious that endanger the salvation of the elect/Church, so “the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church, which is the combined elect.

The most serious deception of an the elect can be, all his work can be wood, hay and straw, rejected by God and lose all his reward.

This is a great loss because our position and glory in heaven is determined by God according to the outcome of the judgment of our works.

YOUR OTHER QUESTION MT

1. What’s your thoughts on what Dr. Anders had to say?

If I understand his teachings correctly, his teachings as follows according to Catholic terminology:

Until we die **we cannot know **we are among the elect/saved end we end up in heaven or we are among the reprobates/predestined to hell before the foundation of the world and we end up in hell.

Let’s what The Word of God has to say about the teachings that a God’s child/elect cannot know he is a God’s child/elect as long as he is alive.

2 Cor.13:5-6;

Quote: “Examine yourselves, to see whether you are holding to your faith.

TEST YOURSELVES.

Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you? – unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

I hope YOU WILL FIND OUT that we have not failed.” End quote.

John 5:24;
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My Word and believes in Him who sent me has EVERLASTING LIFE, and shall NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT, but has PASSED from death into LIFE.”

(As elect we will stand before the judgment seat but only our works will be judged for reward or no reward, our salvation is not at stake.)

1 John 5:13;
“I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that YOU MAY KNOW THAT YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.”

As we see: God not only given His children/elect the COMMAND TO TEST THEIR FAITH / POSITION but at the same time God has given His children/elect the ability to know the test results.

Of course would be foolish to think, God gives the COMMAND His children to test who they are without given His children/elect the ability to know the test results.

NO ONE HAS THE AUTHORITY TO OVERRIDE THE WORD OF GOD, not the Magisterium CCC 86, not the Trent, not even an Angel from heaven.

For those who try to override the Word of God, try to water it down, try to change it, try to HIDE the WORD or the MESSAGES OF THE WORD from the elect, Christ has a message for them in John 12:48:

“He who rejects Me, and does not receive My Words, has that which judge him – the Word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.”

THE ATHER SERIOUS FALLACY OF THE TEACHING: WE CANOT KNOW UNTIL WE DIE WE ARE ELECT OR REPROBATES AS FOLLOWS

We have to work in all our Christian life (for many elect in fear in a paralyzed state and spiritual starvation) to **PROVE OURSELVES **that at this present we are among the elect/saved (in reality without knowing it) by doing the sacraments and obeying and doing the Ten Commandments.

This above works done by **EXTERNAL COERCION and INTERNAL NECESSITY for our own interest **and this works are wood, hay and straw rejected by God and all our works goes up in smoke at the judgment of our works. – 1 Cor.3:12-15.

Continues

 

[LatinRight]

Continuation

**CONDITIONS THAT OUR WORKS (OUR DEEDS) COUNT FOR ANYTHING

Conditions MUST BE PRESENT to make SUPERNATURAL MERIT possible.**

The meritorious work must be morally good, that is, in accordance with the moral law in its

object, intent, and circumstances.

It MUST be done FREELY, WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY.

It MUST be SUPERNATURAL, that is, AROUSED and ACCOMPANIED by ACTUAL

GRACE, and proceeding from a SUPERNATURAL motive.

Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the

Church (Denzinger 1576, 1582).

JUSTIFICATION IN CATHOLIC TEACHING by Jimmy Akin

Quote: “The essence of supernatural love is unselfishness—doing something NOT

BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW, but because we want to do it out of SHEER

LOVE for the other person, whether that person is God or one of our fellow human beings

out of the love of God.

This is THE ONLY KIND of love that ultimately pleases God and therefore the ONLY

KIND that ultimately gets us a reward IN heaven.” End quote. Emphasize mine.

If we not set free to love freely, we cannot love.

If we not set free to freely decide to work, we cannot do supernatural work/merit.

We cannot please God with the work we MUST do, because we cannot do it FREELY,

WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY. **– The work we

MUST do is NOT supernatural work!!!**

MUST always kills our supernatural works/good works.

This is the Only Work which is Supernatural:

Doing something, DECIDED FREELY without the fear of hell,

**work done **NOT BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW,

**but because **we want to do it out of SHEER LOVE for the Glory of God, or help other person out of sheer love.

The works we do to prove ourselves, to get our salvation or to keep our salvation, **we do it by EXTERNAL COERCION and INTERNAL NECESSITY for our own interest **and this works are wood, hay and straw rejected by God and all our works goes up in smoke at the judgment of our works. – 1 Cor.3:12-15.

This is a great loss because our position and glory in heaven is determined by God according to the outcome of the judgment of our works.

This is as follows a genuine question.
Whose Words do you trust with your life MT?

God bless,

LatinRight

 

[LatinRight]

Thanks for the response Latin. I’ve been thinking about you.

Did you do any more reading from Dr. Ander’s website?

What’s your thoughts on what Dr. Anders had to say?

God Bless

God bless MT and every reader of the CAF,

I did study very closely 5 or 6 of his article written on about salvation.

By the way, you don’t need to answer my question: Whose Word do you trust with your life?

I give you my ANSWER with two Bible verses, which are:

John 5:24;
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My Word and believes in Him who sent me has EVERLASTING LIFE, and shall NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT, but has PASSED from death into LIFE.”

(As elect we will stand before the judgment seat but only our works will be judged for reward or no reward, our salvation is not at stake.)

1 John 5:13;
“I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that YOU MAY KNOW THAT YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.”

Is it really John 5:24 and 1 John 5:13; teachings are correct?

Let’s see:

Combined John 5:24 and 1 John 5:13 proclaims:

He who believes the Word of God and in the name of the Son of God they MAY KNOW: They HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.

It is a simple and MOST ASSURED statement of the Lord Jesus Christ, reinforced in 1 John 5:13; Rom.6:23b; etc.

But some teachers of the gospel are teaching:

He who believes the Word of God and in the name of the Son of God they MAY DO NOT KNOW THEY HEAVE EVERLASTING LIFE because they may lose their salvation.

Now we are as ordinary sheep we have a big question to find out: Who are those who are feeding us with spiritual truth?

The Lord Jesus Christ and the Word of God who are teaching us:
If we believe the Word of God and in the name of the Son of God, we HAVE eternal life so, WE MAY KNOW WE CANNOT LOSE OUR SALVATION.

**Or some teachers of the gospel feeding us with spiritual truth who are teaching us: **
Even if we believe the Word of God and in the name of the Son of God, we are still cannot believe WE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE because we can lose our salvation.

Even as we are sheep, but if we have reasonable knowledge of the teachings of the Catholic Church on this subject, we can easily find out who are those who are feeding us with real spiritual truth.

According to the teachings of the Catholic Church, Predestination of the elect, which is a *DE FIDE *Dogma:

There are only two groups of people in the world:

1. God’s children/elect, they are all Predestined to heaven before the foundation of the world, they cannot lose their salvation.
2. The other group of people is the reprobates whose names taken out from the Book of Life for their vehement rejection of God and His grace before the foundation of the world and they all predestined to hell before the foundation of the world.

Continues

 

[LatinRight]

Continuation

In the next step, to find out who are those who are feeding us with the real spiritual truth is very simple and very easy, EVERYTHING depends on the reprobates.

THE TRUTH ABOUT THE REPROBATES

**In all Christian history **in the past or in the future, if even one reprobate could believe the Word of God and in the name of the Son of God and as the result could be saved for a limited time, then those teachers who are teaching, reprobates can be saved, so people can lose salvation, then they are correct.

**In all Christian history **in the past or in the future, if even one reprobate could believe the Word of God and in the name of the Son of God and as the result EVEN ONE could be saved for a limited time, then the statement of the Lord Jesus Christ in John 5:24 would be a mistake of the Lord Jesus Christ, furthermore the Word of God in 1 John 5:13 would be also a mistake of God, meaning: God would NO LONGER be omniscient.

So, in this case, those teachers who are teaching, reprobates can be saved, so people can lose salvation then they would be correct but this would also mean: God is NO LONGER be omniscient.

SUMMARY

Only God’s children/elect can believe the Gospel and in the name of the Son of God and only they can be saved NO ONE ELSE and they cannot lose their salvation.

**If even one reprobate **could believe the Word of God and in the name of the Son of God and as the result could be saved and lose salvation, then John 5:24 and 1 Jon 5:13 would be mistakes of God and He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

The Ultimate Truth is CHRIST who is TRUTH
John 5:24 and 1 John 5:13 are ULTIMATE TRUTH: A reprobate can NEVER be saved and an elect can NEVER lose salvation!!!

John 12:48;
“He who rejects Me, and does not receive My Words, has that which judge him – the Word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.”

**In 2 Cor.13:5-6 God has given us a COMMAND and we MUST obey it! **

**2 Cor.13:5-6;

Quote:** Examine yourselves, to see whether you are holding to your faith.

TEST YOURSELVES.

Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you? – unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

I hope YOU WILL FIND OUT that we have not failed. End quote

To know the test result, we only need to know, do we believe the Word of God and do we believe in the name of the Son of God?

And if our answers are yes to both questions then the test is done, and we KNOW who we are and we obeyed God’s command.

Seems to me God really cares for us, including our faith, our peace and our mental health.

If you think MT I made some mistake in my posts, please point them out to me.

God bless,

LatinRight

 

[MT1926]

LatinRight

Sorry I didn’t get back to you. I can’t believe it is Saturday already. I don’t know where the week went.

Here’s a transcript of Jimmy Akin’s video on the predestination question.

Jeff:
I’m a covert to the Catholic faith, from more of a reformed background. My question is what is the difference between God’s fore-knowledge of our salvation and predestining us for salvation? And is it possible for someone to really earnestly desire salvation, but no be able to receive it because they are not predestined?

Jimmy Akin:
OK, there’s no single answer this question, because there are different ways of understanding fore-knowledge and predestination and how they relate. So I can’t give you a single upper down answer here.

In general fore-knowledge based on just where the word comes from, would mean knowing something in advance. When we apply that to God we have to be a little careful, because God exist outside of time. So there’s not really a before or after where God is, in eternity. He sees all of history all at once and knows everything we do from that eternal perspective, and there’s not really a before or after there. So from a human perspective I could say well God knows what I’m going to do, let’s see in the year 2030 now, you know? So in 2017 God knows what I’m going to do in 2030, but we’re God is there’s no distinction between 2017 and 2030, in terms of His existence. Because 2017 and 2030 are years that exist in history and he exists outside of history. So really the proper way to say it is…… in the eternal now God knows what I’m doing in both years. But from unaccommodated human perspective, because if God sent a Profit today, he could see Jimmy Akin thou art going to do this in 2030. That gives an experience for us of fore-knowing something and that’s really what we’re talking about when we talk about fore-knowledge in that sense.

However, the term fore-know can also be understood other ways. One of the things that some people have proposed is that it involves an intimacy because in scripture, obviously there’s knowing someone in the biblical sense, as in Adam to “knew” his wife means Adam was intimate with his wife. Well it can also be understood in other senses that don’t have a sexual dimension, but nevertheless illustrate a kind of intimacy. Like when Jesus says on the last day many people are going to say to me “Lord, Lord didn’t we do on these great things in your name?” and He’s going to say “I never knew you”. Not meaning He didn’t know who they were in his divine omniscience but he was never close with them, he was never intimate with them, because their hearts were evil. So some people have propose that at least in some biblical text, where it talks about fore-knowledge, it really doesn’t just mean God factually knowing stuff about the future, but God being intimate with people from his eternal perspective.

In terms of how that relates to predestination? Predestination is understood in different senses. It can mean God assigns a particular destiny. The question is, on what basis does he do that? Some people, particularly in the Calvinist community would say that God assigns peoples destinies either to heaven or hell for no reason. He just says this person is going to Heaven this person is going to Hell. He has no reason beyond his own fiat.

That is something that the Catholic Church would not go along with.

So you have different schools of thought, which I can’t really go into all the differences between them here. But if you look in the catechism it leans towards the idea that predestination is based on God’s knowledge of what people will freely choose to do. So it talks about God fore-knowing what people’s choices are going to be.

So if they choose, if he foresees that they will choose to cooperate with his grace, then on that basis he predestined them. To, to glory.

If He foresees that they’re not going to cooperate with his grace, then he doesn’t predestine them to glory.

So there’s a robust role for free will in this understanding.

There’s also another way of taking predestination which is kind of a corporate understanding of predestination. One of the things that we find when we read the biblical text that talk about this concept, is they talk about being predestined in Christ. Some people have proposed that what that means is as long as you have a saving union with Christ, as long as you’re in Christ as a living member of his body, so you’re in a state of grace. Then as long as that’s the case you’re among the predestine.

BUT if you cease to be a living member of the body of Christ, you commit mortal sin, you turn your back on God, you leave the church, things like that. Then you cease to be a living number of the people that are corporately predestined, and thus lose predestination, in that sense.

So there’s a lot of options here.

CONTINUED…

 

[MT1926]

…CONTINUED

In terms of your second question could someone really desire salvation and yet not end up receiving it in the end?

Well it’s possible. But it’s something that’s going to be based on your choice, because if you stay with God, if you continue to respond to his grace, then your desire will be fulfilled.

But if you say, I don’t care about God I’d rather do this sinful thing that I knows going to separate me from Him. Then you commit a mortal sin and you die, in that state, then you won’t go to heaven.

So it if you don’t achieve salvation, if you don’t receive your salvation in the end. It’s going to be because of your choice.

In terms of worrying about the mechanics beyond that, we really don’t have access to that, we don’t have access to Gods hidden divine councils. So I don’t advise people to fret about that. Just rest in the fact that you know God loves you he sent his son to die for you As long as you respond to his grace and his offer of salvation you’ll receive it.

If you would like to discuss it on this thread or the other thread I would be more than willing to discuss what Jimmy had to say further.

Will get to your other posts and questions as soon as I get some more free time.

God Bless

 

[LatinRight]

…CONTINUED

If you would like to discuss it on this thread or the other thread I would be more than willing to discuss what Jimmy had to say further.

Will get to your other posts and questions as soon as I get some more free time.

God Bless

**God bless MT and every reader of the CAF,

Thanks you very much MT for your posts.**

I like Jimmy Akin’s teachings. I did study many of his teachings articles.

There are many different views of predestination around Christian circles.

But the foundation of every predestination view MUST BE the teachings of the Catholic Church: Predestination of the elect as follows:

**The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a *DE FIDE *Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty).

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect**

Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful

figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a list which

contains the names of ALL THE ELECT and admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO ERASURES.

(2) The second quality of predestination, the DEFINITENESS of the number of the elect,

follows NATURALLY from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the

predestined is UNCHANGEABLE, then the number of the predestined must likewise be

UNCHANGEABLE and DEFINITE, subject NEITHER to ADDITIONS nor to

CANCELLATIONS. Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of

certitude in God’s knowledge and would DESTROY His omniscience. End quote. Emphasis added.

BOOK OF LIFE

God has completed the Book of Life before the foundation of the world by taking out the names of the reprobates from the Book of Life for their vehement rejection of God and His grace and as the results they all end up in hell.

From the completion, the Book of life admits NEITHER ADDITIONS no ERASURES.

Some people can be confused about the Book of Life, because God has completed the Book of Life in His “chronological order” before the foundation of the world, but in the Bible concerning the events in the Book of Life, for our understanding, written in our chronological order, like the cancellation from the Book of Life done at our present time, this is not the case.

This fact can cause confusion, because someone may wrongly conclude; God’s child/elect can lose salvation, which is a theological impossibility.

It makes no difference which predestination view we are talking about.

No predestination view can contradict the above: Predestination of the elect, which is a *DE FIDE *Dogma of the Catholic Church.

I looking forward for your post. I believe we should stay in this thread.

God bless,

LatinRight

 

[MT1926]

all his work can be wood, hay and straw, rejected by God and lose all his reward.

This is a great loss because our position and glory in heaven is determined by God according to the outcome of the judgment of our works.

I might be misunderstanding you here, but I do not think I agree with this reasoning. I think you are pushing this to far to try to prove a point that doesn’t exist. Think about it from a logical point of view. If all of our work is burned up in the fire that could only mean we did absolutely nothing good for anyone anywhere throughout our entire life. This includes doing absolutely nothing for good for God.

I believe this person is who Jesus is speaking of here…

Matthew 7:21-23
Concerning Self-Deception
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?’ 23 Then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers.’

YOUR OTHER QUESTION MT

1. What’s your thoughts on what Dr. Anders had to say?

If I understand his teachings correctly, his teachings as follows according to Catholic terminology:

Until we die **we cannot know **we are among the elect/saved end we end up in heaven or we are among the reprobates/predestined to hell before the foundation of the world and we end up in hell.

NO NO NO!!!

Latin you have your preconceived answer embedded in your brain and it is keeping you from understanding to what he had to say. You read this part of his answer and thought to yourself, nope don’t agree, and started to work on your rebuttal while reading the rest of what he said. This is not what I was referencing, this was only the beginning. Go back and read it again.

Let’s what The Word of God has to say about the teachings that a God’s child/elect cannot know he is a God’s child/elect as long as he is alive.

2 Cor.13:5-6;

Not sure where you are going with this verse I think St. Paul saying “I HOPE” actually goes along with what Dr. Anders says above. Basically, I hope you will find out, when you die…

John 5:24;

(As elect we will stand before the judgment seat but only our works will be judged for reward or no reward, our salvation is not at stake.)

1 John 5:13;

Latin you are still picking and choosing verses that fits your theology. This is an old habit that you need to break. As Catholics we read the Bible as a whole before coming to a conclusion on any one verse.

In John 5:24 just back up one verse. “Anyone who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.” The word honor means to esteem but it also means to fulfill or keep an agreement. Well how could we truly honor the Father if as you said above all of our works (everything we did) was burned up in the fire. Honoring the Father and the Son would be a good work that would stand the test of the fire.

Plus the word believe means a lot more than you are admitting.

Sure 1 John 5:13 says he who BELIEVES …eternal life.

However, John already gave us that definition of believe.

1 John 3:10 The children of God and the children of the devil are revealed in this way: all who do not do what is right are not from God, nor are those who do not love their brothers and sisters.

The believers do what is right and love their brothers and sisters. These works do not burn up in the fire. Therefore, if as you said all your works burned up in the fire you must not have done what was right or loved and must not be a true believer.

1 John 5:3 For the love of God is this, that we obey his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome,

If we keep His commandments we believe, keeping the commandments is works that will not burn in the fire.

The things you say make sense by themselves, but when we put them together it’s easy to see that you are picking and choosing.

As we see:

God not only given His children/elect the COMMAND TO TEST THEIR FAITH / POSITION but at the same time God has given His children/elect the ability to know the test results.

Of course would be foolish to think, God gives the COMMAND His children to test who they are without given His children/elect the ability to know the test results.

This is your opinion. You need to explain why it would be foolish.

THE ATHER SERIOUS FALLACY OF THE TEACHING: WE CANOT KNOW UNTIL WE DIE WE ARE ELECT OR REPROBATES AS FOLLOWS

This above works done by **EXTERNAL COERCION and INTERNAL NECESSITY for our own interest **and this works are wood, hay and straw rejected by God and all our works goes up in smoke at the judgment of our works. – 1 Cor.3:12-15.

Dr. Anders covered this already. READ IT AGAIN!!!

This mindset that Catholics do the sacraments good works out of fear is a Protestant invention.

If you are Catholic and you do good work’s or go to Church out of fear of losing salvation then you don’t know what it means to be Catholic.

I love you brother, but you have a lot of deep rooted ideas that you need to purge from your brain before you can move forward.

Will get to the next post when I have more time.

God Bless