Trent Horn - Does it matter which Christian denomination you belong to?

[steve_b]

Please consider that I am asking this question with a respectful attitude:

You without any shadow of doubt or hesitation believe that the Catholic Church that we witness today in 2015 is exactly what Jesus had in mind when He said to the fishermen “follow me”?

To say otherwise is to say Jesus can’t make good on THIS promises.

[16] Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. [17] And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. [18] And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19] And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

                 [[15]](http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=50&ch=21&l=15#x)  When therefore they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter: Simon son of  John, lovest thou me more than these? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou  knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs.                                          [[16]](http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=50&ch=21&l=16#x)  He saith to him again: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? He saith to  him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my  lambs.                     [[17]](http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=50&ch=21&l=17#x)  He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me?  Peter was grieved, because he had said to him the third time: Lovest  thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest  that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep.                     [[18]](http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=50&ch=21&l=18#x)  Amen, amen I say to thee, when thou wast younger, thou didst gird  thyself, and didst walk where thou wouldst. But when thou shalt be old,  thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and  lead thee whither thou wouldst not.                     [[19]](http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=50&ch=21&l=19#x) And this he said, signifying by what death he should glorify God

In the Greek, “feed” in those passages have the following meaning
past conversations have covered this #105 , #108 , #128 , #112 ,

Peter was crucified in Rome. This same Church has been here for 2000 years, with pope Francis 266th successor to Peter in Rome. In EVERY century, we see the Catholic Church “in writing”.

Just a snapshot of the first 4 centuries #34

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[zz912]

Thanks for answering zz912, I feel the need to soak in this train of thought before immediately giving response. It is asking a lot but I would be interested in scriptures that verify the desires and intents of Jesus and the Holy Spirit as stated in your reply.

In addition to what steve_b wrote, I would add a couple points:

1. The Church is ONE. Jesus built one Church, not many. (Matthew 16) He gave the “keys to the kingdom” to one man, Peter. This harkens back to the Davidic kingdom, when the Prime Minister held the keys to the kingdom and had authority while the King was away.
2. Jesus set the Apostles as shepherds over the Church. They held universal and incredible authority. They had authority to determine doctrine (Acts - Council of Jerusalem), authority over punishment (Peter declaring the death sentence for lying to the Apostles, which was the same as lying to the Holy Spirit), Authority over excommunication (Paul declaring two men to be delivered to satan).
3. The Apostles had authority to rebuke and correct anyone, even remote groups of Christians (virtually all of the letters in the NT).
4. The sacraments, especially of Confirmation and ordination required an Apostle/bishop (Acts, when Phillip baptized, but they didn’t receive the Holy Spirit. They needed the Apostles Peter and John to come and confirm them).
5. Authority was passed on through ordination from an Apostle. Paul exhorts Timothy and Titus about how they are to ordain and is explicit that the men they will ordain, have the authority to teach, correct, rebuke etc. And these men that Timothy and Titus will ordain, they also will ordain. So St. Paul is explicit that authority keeps going on. It is never mentioned that this authority will cease.

Those are just a few points off the top of my head.

 

[TonyBS]

Yes.
zz912;13460704:

Originally Posted by Wannano View Post
Please consider that I am asking this question with a respectful attitude:

You without any shadow of doubt or hesitation believe that the Catholic Church that we witness today in 2015 is exactly what Jesus had in mind when He said to the fishermen “follow me”?

Jesus knows and sees all, at all times. He know that giving the keys to the kingdom to Peter, and giving authority to the Church He would build, would need protection, because human beings are sinful. So He sent the Holy Spirit, who protects the Church from ever teaching error on faith and morals.

Jesus wants a hierarchical Church with shepherds that hand down authority through ordination from the Apostles, so that’s what He set up. That’s not to say those in the Church are perfect, far from it. And many in the Church have committed great sins, but the Church continues on, dispensing His sacraments and proclaiming the truth, even 2000 years later.

This is a Good Question and as a Baha’i I would have to say No, but would then clarify as to why with no ill intent meant.

This will most likely be a challenging answer, but it is good to know how we all come to Love and Know God. In the end there is no problem if we keep this in mind.

It ties into the Greater and lesser Covenants of God.

The Greater Covenant is to recognize and worship God through who is His Manifestation and 2000 years ago God Manifested through Jesus the Christ.

The Lesser Covenant in the Bible was indeed to place Peter as the Foundation of that Truth and to implement the Laws and requirements of the Age through the Rock that was Peter.

The Greater Covenant also carries with it the obligation of Not Rejecting God when he sends His Message, thus as we know in the past the Jews broke this Greater Covenant. The Bible is full of promises and warning for what was to come after Jesus.

As a Baha’i we would offer that there has been 3 Greater Covenants made Manifest since the time of Jesus. We see that Jesus the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End has returned with 3 Revelations and will offer that it is Biblical.

It would be good to note and consider that the Jews still worship as they have done for thousands of years, even after the Gods Greater Covenant of the Old testament was Manifested in the person of Jesus the Christ. Also the Christians and the Muslims also still worship the one and only God.

Regards Tony