Trent Horn - Does it matter which Christian denomination you belong to?

[Starwarsfan2]

I leave you with these quotes of Luther’s, to show you the path that his faith alone doctrine had taken him.I always thought it was go and sin no more, but maybe it is go and sin some more.

You do realize he was Making a joke/mocking antinomianism for its idea right ? he believed faith alone saves , then produces works naturally AFTER justification in something known as sanctification . now CAN We stay on topic please and stop with this slapfight .:slapfight:

 

[Duane1966]

You do realize he was Making a joke/mocking antinomianism for its idea right ? he believed faith alone saves , then produces works naturally AFTER justification in something known as sanctification . now CAN We stay on topic please and stop with this slapfight .:slapfight:

I used to think he was joking, but the more I read Luther, the more I doubt. In reality, any time someone says something in history that we find jaw-dropping, If we happen to like that person, it would be easy to say, “well that person was joking.”

Once again, faith alone does NOT save. St. James is talking about people who have faith, why has it not Naturally produced works? As I stated earlier, the second faith produces works, it is not alone anymore. Please see definition of alone that I posted earlier.

My question for anyone. If faith alone saves, if that faith does NOT naturally produce works, will you be saved?

 

[Starwarsfan2]

1.Martin Luther Officially condemned antinomianism multiple times he never believed antinomianism , so he was making jokes about it , 2.James was talking about those who claim to have faith but don’t , , a lack of works as evidence after a supposed salvation would show a lack of faith,( that you didn’t ever have it ) , your question is redundant, faith in sanctification WILL produce works , you are justified by faith alone , but after justification, that faith will produce works naturally ,but you can’t produce works until after you are justified. Sola fide does not mean a lack of works , it means that you are saved , then you produce works . Think of it as a courtroom , a criminal is pardoned , then after he or she is pardoned , they will act like it ( that is where the works come in ) .

Last let’s try to get back on topic .

 

[Duane1966]

1.Martin Luther Officially condemned antinomianism multiple times he never believed antinomianism , so he was making jokes about it , 2.James was talking about those who claim to have faith but don’t , , a lack of works as evidence after a supposed salvation would show a lack of faith,( that you didn’t ever have it ) , your question is redundant, faith in sanctification WILL produce works , you are justified by faith alone , but after justification, that faith will produce works naturally ,but you can’t produce works until after you are justified. Sola fide does not mean a lack of works , it means that you are saved , then you produce works . Think of it as a courtroom , a criminal is pardoned , then after he or she is pardoned , they will act like it ( that is where the works come in ) .

Last let’s try to get back on topic .

So you believe in OSAS. I understand your position, just understand that not one ECF held to that position. Some Protestant historians admit that Luther got St. Paul wrong, as I posted earlier. His theory of sola fide was a novelty.

Justification is not a one time event.

St. James does not say they don’t have faith. He specifically says they do, but if they don’t marry that faith to works, it is useless.

I am all for getting back on topic. I’ll let you go first.

 

[Starwarsfan2]

So you believe in OSAS. I understand your position, just understand that not one ECF held to that position. Some Protestant historians admit that Luther got St. Paul wrong, as I posted earlier. His theory of sola fide was a novelty.

Justification is not a one time event.

St. James does not say they don’t have faith. He specifically says they do, but if they don’t marry that faith to works, it is useless.

I am all for getting back on topic. I’ll let you go first.

I believe you can lose salvation by apostasy, and that a lifestyle of sin can destroy one s faith , why did you think otherwise ? ,
Many ECF s held to sola gratia , and sola fide ,
And lastly , it does matter which denomination you belong to ( you said me first)

 

[Starwarsfan2]

I believe you can lose salvation by apostasy, and that a lifestyle of sin can destroy one s faith , why did you think otherwise ? ,
Many ECF s held to sola gratia , and sola fide ,
And lastly , it does matter which denomination you belong to ( you said me first)

And just to clarify I have NEVER believed osas

 

[Duane1966]

I believe you can lose salvation by apostasy, and that a lifestyle of sin can destroy one s faith , why did you think otherwise ?

Because you said:

Sola fide does not mean a lack of works , **it means that you are saved **, then you produce works

You said they were saved. How could I take it as anything else?

You said:

Many ECF s held to sola gratia , and sola fide

Find me one that held to sola fide. If an ECF uses the term faith alone, it is never in the sense that Protestants use it. Protestant scholar/apologist, Alister McGrath** admitted that there were no Fathers who taught anything approximating Sola Fide. ** When the Fathers speak of faith, they never see faith as opposed to good works in grace, in justification. They never see faith as the only instrument of salvation, as the Protestant Sola Fide advocates do.

Joseph Augustine Fitzmyer, S.J. (born 1920), is an American Catholic priest of the Society of Jesus and professor emeritus at The Catholic University of America in Washington, D.C… He specializes in biblical studies, particularly the New Testament, though he has also made singular contributions to the study of the Dead Sea Scrolls and early Jewish literature. Fitzmyer also denies that any of the Fathers believed in Sola Fide in any sense as promoted by Luther or Calvin.

And lastly , it does matter which denomination you belong to ( you said me first)

Whoa. Houston we have a problem. I just agreed with something starwars wrote.

 

[Starwarsfan2]

1. One may be saved at one point then fall away , that was always one of the points, you misunderstood me .

1.Jerome " God justifies by faith alone .
2. Ambrosiator ( think I spelled that wrong ) they are justified freely because they have not done anything nor given anything in return , but by faith alone they have been made holy by God .
3.Thomas Aquinas the hope of justification is not in them in the ceremonial requirements of the law ] , but in faith alone . Rom 3:28 we consider a human being to be justified by faith , without the works of the law .
4. Clement of Rome And we too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or works wrought in holiness of heart, but by faith through which from the beginning Almighty God has justified men to Him be the glory forever and ever amen .
5.St Augustine If Abraham was not saved by works how was he justified…Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness . Abraham , then , was justified by faith, Paul and James do not contradict each other, good works follow justification.
6.Didymus the Blind a person is saved by grace , not by works but by faith …
7.Cyril Of Alexandria For we are justified by faith not by works of the law as Scripture says by faith in whom then are we justified? Is it not in his who suffered death to the flesh for our sake is it not one Lord Jesus Christ.
There are many more quotes that could be used . Sola fide , is taught by the church fathers .
Lastly I think We Broke Houston.

 

[JMM1957]

We know James was inspired by the Holy Spirit when he said this, James 2:21-22,“Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the alter? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.” James 2:24, “See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

This is the only place in the NT where “faith alone” is mentioned, and it is preceded by the words “not by”. You can debate this until Judgement day, but James is saying here that a person “is not justified by faith alone”, works complete justification.

I would almost be more inclined to view “true faith” as naturally including works, rather than presuming that “faith alone” includes works, which seems a contradiction. So by insisting on “faith alone” for justification, it almost seems as thought the P’s have backed themselves into a very tight corner, where they have to continually defend this very narrow seemingly contradictory definition of “faith alone.”

 

[Sirach2]

I apologize for not having read the many pages belonging to this thread, but just the latter posts, and I share this brief comment re faith/works.

1 Peter 1:10 Wherefore, brethren, labor the more, that by good works you may make sure your vocation and election: for doing these things, you shall not sin at any time.

The principle holds true when we consider Jesus’ words regarding the sheep and goats, Mt. 25:40. Inasmuch as you did NOT do these things to these least brothers of mine, you did not do them to Me. Verse 41 gives a consequential judgment of eternal fire for this failure to do good works unto others.

 

[Duane1966]

1. One may be saved at one point then fall away , that was always one of the points, you misunderstood me .

1.Jerome " God justifies by faith alone .
2. Ambrosiator ( think I spelled that wrong ) they are justified freely because they have not done anything nor given anything in return , but by faith alone they have been made holy by God .
3.Thomas Aquinas the hope of justification is not in them in the ceremonial requirements of the law ] , but in faith alone . Rom 3:28 we consider a human being to be justified by faith , without the works of the law .
4. Clement of Rome And we too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or works wrought in holiness of heart, but by faith through which from the beginning Almighty God has justified men to Him be the glory forever and ever amen .
5.St Augustine If Abraham was not saved by works how was he justified…Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness . Abraham , then , was justified by faith, Paul and James do not contradict each other, good works follow justification.
6.Didymus the Blind a person is saved by grace , not by works but by faith …
7.Cyril Of Alexandria For we are justified by faith not by works of the law as Scripture says by faith in whom then are we justified? Is it not in his who suffered death to the flesh for our sake is it not one Lord Jesus Christ.
There are many more quotes that could be used . Sola fide , is taught by the church fathers .
Lastly I think We Broke Houston.

I am at work right now, so I will post more later. In that post I will address every father you have listed in detail. Suffice it to say, that almost every quotation you gave, in the same paragraph the father makes it clear that the works they are talking about are works of the law. In fact several of the quotes you give say works of the law right in them. Works of the law are different than works of charity.

You might like this quote from Ambrosiaster’s Commentary on Titus 3:7

God by his mercy has saved us through Christ. By his grace, we born again, have received abundantly of his Holy Spirit, so that relying on good works, with him helping us in all things, we might be able thus to lay hold of the inheritance of the kingdom of heaven.

I will also say this much, one of those ECFs you quoted says it’s works that justify. Keep them quotes coming.

 

[Starwarsfan2]

I am at work right now, so I will post more later. In that post I will address every father you have listed in detail. Suffice it to say, that almost every quotation you gave, in the same paragraph the father makes it clear that the works they are talking about are works of the law. In fact several of the quotes you give say works of the law right in them. Works of the law are different than works of charity.

You might like this quote from Ambrosiaster’s Commentary on Titus 3:7 I will also say this much, one of those ECFs you quoted says it’s works that justify. Keep them quotes coming.

But you cannot love God until after justification because we are under the law ( taskmaster ) any work done before salvation is under the law , only after the reception of the Gospel can one obey out of love .

1. I knew I spelled that name wrong .
2. I got plenty of quotes, however I gotta go for now.

 

[JMM1957]

But you cannot love God until after justification because we are under the law ( taskmaster ) any work done before salvation is under the law , only after the reception of the Gospel can one obey out of love .

1. I knew I spelled that name wrong .
2. I got plenty of quotes, however I gotta go for now.

Stay tuned for the ECF :slapfight:

 

[Sirach2]

But you cannot love God until after justification because we are under the law.

Really? Then how do you explain Luke 7:45-47?

1. You did not give me a kiss, but this woman, from the time I entered, has not stopped kissing my feet. 47. Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven—for she loved much. But he who is forgiven little, loves little.”

Which came first…her love, which obtained her forgiveness from Jesus, or keeping the law?

 

[Starwarsfan2]

Really? Then how do you explain Luke 7:45-47?

1. You did not give me a kiss, but this woman, from the time I entered, has not stopped kissing my feet. 47. Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven—for she loved much. But he who is forgiven little, loves little.”

Which came first…her love, which obtained her forgiveness from Jesus, or keeping the law?

The quote is as her love has shown(NIV , Nlt , ISV, NET , Aramaic bible in plain English etc.) , hence love being after justification .

By the way , nice name , love the book of Sirach .

 

[Duane1966]

But you cannot love God until after justification because we are under the law ( taskmaster ) any work done before salvation is under the law , only after the reception of the Gospel can one obey out of love .

1. I knew I spelled that name wrong .
2. I got plenty of quotes, however I gotta go for now.

Justification and salvation is a process, not a one time event.

 

[Starwarsfan2]

Stay tuned for the ECF :slapfight:

I can see it now,
Speaker : it’s the battle we’ve been waiting for, The battle of the Church Fathers, St. Augustine vs Thomas Aquinas.:slapfight:

 

[Sirach2]

The quote is as her love has shown(NIV , Nlt , ISV, NET , Aramaic bible in plain English etc.) , hence love being after justification .

By the way , nice name , love the book of Sirach .

I see no evidence that she was “first justified” and then, as a result, LOVED. I think you need to read it again. She LOVED first, and THEN her many sins were forgiven, justifying her.

Let’s try another approach. How about Romans 2:14-16?
14 Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them. 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

There may be no love for God at all, since they do not know Him yet.
They are justified by God without keeping the law, which they have no knowledge of, but by their hearts (conscience) which they live by the natural law placed within them by God.

 

[JMM1957]

The quote is as her love has shown(NIV , Nlt , ISV, NET , Aramaic bible in plain English etc.) , hence love being after justification .

By the way , nice name , love the book of Sirach .

How do you know she was forgiven until Jesus forgave her sins. The woman showed great love even before Jesus forgave her in verse 48, therefore she was saved because of her love, verse 50 “He said to the woman, your faith has saved you, go in peace.”

 

[Duane1966]

1. One may be saved at one point then fall away , that was always one of the points, you misunderstood me .

Sola fide does not mean a lack of works ,** it means that you are saved **, then you produce works.

That is why salvation is a process, and why a Catholic will never say that a person is saved until the end. What you really seem to be saying is that person is saved if they were to die right now, but if they fall away then they were never really saved. Which is exactly how OSAS word it.

1.Jerome " God justifies by faith alone .

Why did you not print the whole sentence? Here it is:

“Being ignorant that God justifies from faith alone, they consider themselves to be just from the** works of the Law **which they do not keep.”(In Epistolam Ad Romanos, Caput X, v. 3, PL 30:692D)

In the whole paragraph where you took your quote, St. Jerome is talking about the Pharisees and works of the law, not works of charity. In a different writing, talking about marriage he says this:

Neither celibacy nor wedlock is of the slightest use without works, since even faith, the distinguishing mark of Christians,** if it have not works,** is said to be dead

As a side note, St. Jerome clearly believes in the concept of Purgatory.

1. Ambrosiator ( think I spelled that wrong ) they are justified freely because they have not done anything nor given anything in return , but by faith alone they have been made holy by God .

Ambrosiaster says:

God by his mercy has saved us through Christ. By his grace, we born again, have received abundantly of his Holy Spirit, so that** relying on good works**, with him helping us in all things, we might be able thus to lay hold of the inheritance of the kingdom of heaven.(Commentary on Titus 3:7)

By the way, can you give me the full paragraph of your quote from Ambrosiaster, in English, so I can see the context? Also, whenever Ambrosiaster talks about faith, it is always in relationship to love, and for him, as for all the early fathers, faith must include use of the** sacraments.** All of them.

3.Thomas Aquinas the hope of justification is not in them in the ceremonial requirements of the law ] , but in faith alone . Rom 3:28 we consider a human being to be justified by faith , without the works of the law .

Why do you keep on throwing in these works of the law quotes? We are talking about faith and works of charity. Oh well. I am sure you agree with this from St. Thomas:

The sacraments of the New Law however, although they are material elements, are not needy elements; hence they can justify. (St. Thomas Aquinas, Commentary on Saint Paul’s Epistle to the Galatians, trans. F. R. Larcher, O.P. (Albany: Magi Books, Inc., 1966), Chapter 2, Lecture 4, (Gal. 2:15-16), pp. 54-55.)

St. Thomas believed in seven sacraments. St. Thomas again:

…justification [properly so called] may be taken in two ways. First, according as man is made just by becoming possessed of the habit of justice; secondly, according as he does works of justice, so that in this sense justification is nothing else than the execution of justice. Now justice, like the other virtues, may denote either the acquired or the infused virtue… The acquired virtue is caused by works; but the infused virtue [of the execution of justice] is caused by God Himself through His grace. The latter is true justice, of which we are speaking now, and in respect of which a man is said to be just before God, according to Rom. 4.2.

As a side note, St. Thomas also calls anyone who does not pray for the souls in Purgatory cruel and hardhearted.

By the way, this is the first time I have ever seen someone quote St. Thomas Aquinas as an ECF. I just hope you don’t try to slip in Luther or Calvin as one also.

To be continued…