Trent Horn - Does it matter which Christian denomination you belong to?

[Duane1966]

Part 2.

1. Clement of Rome And we too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or works wrought in holiness of heart, but by faith through which from the beginning Almighty God has justified men to Him be the glory forever and ever amen .

I am going to give the link to the writing that surrounds that quote of yours. Taken from this link here:matt1618.freeyellow.com/page5.html#A%29%20Clement%20of%20Rome
This quote is from the end of the link:

Conclusion - So we see that Clement’s quote (the one quote that I could find) that you took was totally out of context. When he made the quote that you noted, we see that surrounding it before and after was the necessity of works done in God’s grace for salvation. He was in the quote contrasting a self-righteous holiness to the holiness that must be done in God’s grace. The one that did not justify, is when one tries to justify himself, relies on his own wisdom, holiness, etc. One indeed who works on one’s own power is condemned by Trent, canon 1, justification. That is what Clement was condemning, and saying that does not avail before God. He specifically speaks of justification by works in Chapter 30. Notice though that those works are done in grace, as he specifically says in that same chapter. In Chapter 31 he says Abraham was blessed (and the context is speaking of justification), because of the act of offering Isaac on the altar. In chapter 34, Clement says that in justification it is requisite to our actions to be well-doing. He gives us two choices. To be a faithful servant, we labor (in grace of course) and we get the reward of heaven. However, if we are a slothful servant, and don’t labor for God, we are sent to hell. Clement is obviously referring to Mt. 24:45-51. The slothful servant gets what? weeping and gnashing of teeth. That is hell. Why, because he didn’t work. Then Clement says, he forewarns us he renders accoring to our works (Rom. 2:6, Mt. 16:27). If faith alone, he wouldn’t forewarn us (because our justification would be absolutely assured), and we would not fear damnation. In Chapter 48 he speaks of those can attain salvation only those who direct their ways in holiness. Thus, that direction in holiness is a cause of justification. In Chapter 50 he notes that we must keep the commandments and that love (not faith alone) forgives sins. Clement notes that works are what must be judged before God to achieve salvation, and not even a hint of forensic justification, or Sola Fide

Will post on the rest tomorrow or Thursday. Once again, whenever ECF says faith alone, it is not in the same context that the reformers use it.

 

[benhur]

I used to think he was joking, but the more I read Luther, the more I doubt. In reality, any time someone says something in history that we find jaw-dropping, If we happen to like that person, it would be easy to say, “well that person was joking.”

Once again, faith alone does NOT save. St. James is talking about people who have faith, why has it not Naturally produced works? As I stated earlier, the second faith produces works, it is not alone anymore. Please see definition of alone that I posted earlier.

My question for anyone. If faith alone saves, if that faith does NOT naturally produce works, will you be saved?

Hi D

Actually starwars was spot on. One must define saved. Faith alone regenerates, makes born again, makes born of the Spirit, brings one out of darkness into the light, saves… That is alone. I do not do three works of corporal charity, visit the widows, feed my poor neighbor, pray for my sick friend, then get born again from those works. Those works follow and some call that sanctification, which is not * what some call getting saved, but acting out because you are *saved. In that context faith alone saves, regenerates. Faith alone does not mean their is no sanctification, or glorification, or perseverance, or profession, or holiness, etc… Just that none of these things just mentioned make you saved as in born again. The new birth is critical and should not be muddled , confused with sanctification, else the temptation to trust in works wrongly.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

You do realize he was Making a joke/mocking antinomianism for its idea right ? he believed faith alone saves , then produces works naturally AFTER justification in something known as sanctification . now CAN We stay on topic please and stop with this slapfight .:slapfight:

Hi Starwars,

Well, he did fornicate with the nuns and finally married one, and certainly caused the deaths of many (with the wars that followed) or so I have heard it said, by some…but not by me. So maybe* some* do believe he preached fornication and murder to further glorify grace…but not me.

Welcome to CAF ,carry on with good posts

Blessings

 

[Memaw]

Hi outremer,

I agree with you, the post-Vatican II Catholic Church is vastly different then the pre-Vatican II Catholic Church. I got a bit curious about the “Pope Francis to the John 17 Movement, 2015” quote in your sig line. Here’s the full text of the message zenit.org/en/articles/text-of-pope-s-videomessage-for-day-of-christian-unity-in-us and Jimmy Akin’s analysis of his message jimmyakin.com/2015/05/did-pope-francis-say-it-doesnt-matter-what-kind-of-christian-you-are-9-things-to-know-and-share.html.

Thanks.

Some of the disciplines are different but the Doctrines are the SAME and always will be. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Starwarsfan2]

Hi Starwars,

Well, he did fornicate with the nuns and finally married one, and certainly caused the deaths of many (with the wars that followed) or so I have heard it said, by some…but not by me. So maybe* some* do believe he preached fornication and murder to further glorify grace…but not me.

Welcome to CAF ,carry on with good posts

Blessings

He did not fornicate with a nun , that is a myth , and no he was not antinomian.

 

[benhur]

He did not fornicate with a nun , that is a myth , and no he was not antinomian.

Amen.

 

[benhur]

You need to read the new perspective on Paul. The Jews considered circumcision a work of righteousness, and that is what St. Paul is referring to in that verse you quote. So yes again St. Paul is talking about a work of the law.

Yes somewhere Paul says we are not saved by the works of the law explicitly,( but not to Titus). That does not mean that “works of righteousness” are confined to one of the 4 or 5 covenants ( Abraham was before the law and had righteous works). Also Titus was a Greek, an uncircumcised Greek . That is why Paul may have been referring to any good work, including but also beyond the Jewish sense.

Paul in Ephesians also says we are “washed by the Word”. Am not sure baptism is explicitly referenced here (some think it is implicit). Besides does not make sense for some say baptism replaced circumcision. Paul is not saying a work of righteousness does not save except for the righteous work of water baptism.

Blessings

 

[JMM1957]

He did not fornicate with a nun , that is a myth , and no he was not antinomian.

I don’t think anyone knows for sure, so how is it that you seem to?

 

[benhur]

I don’t think anyone knows for sure, so how is it that you seem to?

SW is implicitly saying Luther did not fornicate but explicitly saying it was alleged to be so, hence the myth. For sure Luther was accused of many slurious things.

If no one knows for sure why did “folks” cast disparaging remarks?

Blessings

 

[Duane1966]

Hi D

Actually starwars was spot on. One must define saved. Faith alone regenerates, makes born again, makes born of the Spirit, brings one out of darkness into the light, saves… That is alone. I do not do three works of corporal charity, visit the widows, feed my poor neighbor, pray for my sick friend, then get born again from those works. Those works follow and some call that sanctification, which is not * what some call getting saved, but acting out because you are *saved. In that context faith alone saves, regenerates. Faith alone does not mean their is no sanctification, or glorification, or perseverance, or profession, or holiness, etc… Just that none of these things just mentioned make you saved as in born again. The new birth is critical and should not be muddled , confused with sanctification, else the temptation to trust in works wrongly.

Blessings

Actually you are both wrong. Nor did I ever state that you become born again from works of mercy.

Let’s try this again. From Merriam-Websters dictionary:

1 faith
noun \ˈfāth\

: strong belief or trust in someone or something

: belief in the existence of God : strong religious feelings or beliefs

: a system of religious beliefs

1 alone
adjective \ə-ˈlōn\

: without anyone or anything else : not involving or including anyone or anything else : separate from other people or things

: without people that you know or that usually are with you

: feeling unhappy because of being separated from other people

So being saved by faith alone is a strong belief and trust in God. That is the definition. Yet St. James specifically argues against it.

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

Ignoring a death bed conversion, St. James sure seems to be saying no. But Luther says yes.

15If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, 16and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?j 17So also faith of itself,** if it does not have works,** is dead.

Right here he is saying you have faith, and it’s alone, and it isn’t saving you, because it’s dead. And why is it dead? Because it’s alone.

18Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. 19You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. 20Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?k 22You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. 23Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”l 24See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?m 26For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Again, if I believe and trust in God, all my life, but never do a work of charity, am I saved? If no, how does faith, (which is belief and trust in something, and nothing else), alone save? And don’t tell me, well works naturally flow from the faith. For faith alone to save, you should be saved without one drop of them flowing.

Let me reverse the situation. Can a person not be saved because their faith was alone?

 

[JMM1957]

Actually you are both wrong. Nor did I ever state that you become born again from works of mercy.

Let’s try this again. From Merriam-Websters dictionary:So being saved by faith alone is a strong belief and trust in God. That is the definition. Yet St. James specifically argues against it.Ignoring a death bed conversion, St. James sure seems to be saying no. But Luther says yes.

Right here he is saying you have faith, and it’s alone, and it isn’t saving you, because it’s dead. And why is it dead? Because it’s alone.

Again, if I believe and trust in God, all my life, but never do a work of charity, am I saved? If no, how does faith, (which is belief and trust in something, and nothing else), alone save? And don’t tell me, well works naturally flow from the faith. For faith alone to save, you should be saved without one drop of them flowing.

Let me reverse the situation. Can a person not be saved because their faith was alone?

Their definition of “faith alone” is man made.:newidea: They have given the word “alone” a new meaning in the English language, a meaning that only they understand, the rest of us just scratch our heads.

 

[benhur]

Actually you are both wrong. Nor did I ever state that you become born again from works of mercy.

Right ,but do you say you remain saved or are saved also by works, that is faith and works. I think you do and understand. Can you not understand how one would say faith alone makes you born again, for it seems you are saying it is not by works ?

Let’s try this again. From Merriam-Websters dictionary:So being saved by faith alone is a strong belief and trust in God. That is the definition. Yet St. James specifically argues against it.Ignoring a death bed conversion, St. James sure seems to be saying no. But Luther says yes.

Right here he is saying you have faith, and it’s alone, and it isn’t saving you, because it’s dead. And why is it dead? Because it’s alone.

Again, if I believe and trust in God, all my life, but never do a work of charity, am I saved? If no, how does faith, (which is belief and trust in something, and nothing else), alone save? And don’t tell me, well works naturally flow from the faith. For faith alone to save, you should be saved without one drop of them flowing.

Let me reverse the situation. Can a person not be saved because their faith was alone?

WE do not have a problem with defining “faith” or “alone”. As my post suggested, it is about defining “saved”, and in particular regeneration, being born of the spirit, being born again, being justified.

I will say faith alone saves and faith alone produces good works. Nothing else helps but faith .Do you want to say you supply something to faith so that it is not alone ? What do you supply that by faith you don’t appropriate from God ?

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Their definition of “faith alone” is man made.:newidea: They have given the word “alone” a new meaning in the English language, a meaning that only they understand, the rest of us just scratch our heads.

Well it must be understood spiritually, and the sayer has every right to qualify it. I do not see it as bending any separate natural definition of the terms.

Again, are the works faith based or originate from faith ? it still seems to be all a matter of faith, belief and good works. it is nothing I bring to the table.it is all God’s gifting, alone.

Blessings

 

[seaton2005]

It matters absolutely. Each denomination is ordered much different from the next. The Catholic church is ordered around St. Peter. This is what Lord Jesus Christ required. Other denominations schismatically ordered itself around something different, such as personal pride/glory and/or self-righteousness, thus becoming just a shadow of its former self.

On now! Come on! I’m a cradle practicing Catholic of over 50 years now and don’t for one reason think my Catholic faith is superior to other faith traditions. It does not matter what denomination you belong to. The only thing that maters is your faith in Christ regardless if that is Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran etc…

 

[Duane1966]

Well it must be understood spiritually, and the sayer has every right to qualify it. I do not see it as bending any separate natural definition of the terms.

Again, are the works faith based or originate from faith ? it still seems to be all a matter of faith, belief and good works. it is nothing I bring to the table.it is all God’s gifting, alone.

Blessings

Once again Ben I ask you, can a person be saved only having faith? If I trust and believe in Jesus, that is without a doubt faith.

Will I be saved if I intentionally never do a work of charity? I still believe Jesus will save me, and that He is God. That is the definition of faith alone according to the dictionary.

In your opinion, can the sayer change the definition of something to fit his/her ideology?

 

[Duane1966]

On now! Come on! I’m a cradle practicing Catholic of over 50 years now and don’t for one reason think my Catholic faith is superior to other faith traditions. It does not matter what denomination you belong to. The only thing that maters is your faith in Christ regardless if that is Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran etc…

Of course it matters. Just the fact that you have been practicing 50 years and staying a Catholic, must mean that you feel that Catholicism has something to offer that you could not get anywhere else. So, quite obviously it must matter to you.

 

[JMM1957]

Right ,but do you say you remain saved or are saved also by works, that is faith and works. I think you do and understand. Can you not understand how one would say faith alone makes you born again, for it seems you are saying it is not by works ?
WE do not have a problem with defining “faith” or “alone”. As my post suggested, it is about defining “saved”, and in particular regeneration, being born of the spirit, being born again, being justified.

I will say faith alone saves and faith alone produces good works. Nothing else helps but faith .Do you want to say you supply something to faith so that it is not alone ? What do you supply that by faith you don’t appropriate from God ?

Blessings

You said**, “I will say faith alone saves”**
As someone else asked, “if you just have faith ( a strong belief), and you never did one solitary good work (an action), would you be saved?” Please just answer this question with a yes or no, don’t try to qualify it.

You said, "faith alone produces good works"
I have to admit, you might be starting to come around I like when you say it like this because now you are separating faith alone and good works, instead of defining “faith alone” to mean faith and works bonded inseparably together.

 

[Starwarsfan2]

You said**, “I will say faith alone saves”**
As someone else asked, “if you just have faith ( a strong belief), and you never did one solitary good work (an action), would you be saved?” Please just answer this question with a yes or no, don’t try to qualify it.

You said, "faith alone produces good works"
I have to admit, you might be starting to come around I like when you say it like this because now you are separating faith alone and good works, instead of defining “faith alone” to mean faith and works bonded inseparably together.

Answer to the first question, faith will produce works , after faith alone justifys you .

 

[Duane1966]

Answer to the first question, faith will produce works , after faith alone justifys you .

You never answer the question. If faith does not produce works, are you saved? Because faith alone, by definition, is without works, something that St. Augustine goes into detail about when he condemns faith alone. Both St. James and St. Augustine talk about having only faith and that it will not save you.

Is justification a process or a one time event?

 

[JMM1957]

Answer to the first question, faith will produce works , after faith alone justifys you .

That’s not a yes or no answer to my question. I think you know full well what the answer “must” be to the question as asked.