Trickle down economics

  • Thread starter Thread starter JamesATyler
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Please tell me what is inherently wrong with one person having more than someone else? There’s nothing wrong with inequality; it is the natural state of human affairs.
I didn’t say there was anything wrong with some income or wealth disparity. But there are extremes of disparity that start to look very wrong. At some level it does become unnaturally unequal. When combined with other factors, inequality is something that should be considered.
 
My point really wasn’t about trying to help the rich. Never has been. But I’ve met people who believe that no matter how many people it benefits for the wealthy to have lower taxes in terms of the overall economy, they’d still rather tax the rich higher to economic detriment simply because “it’s not fair they have so much.”
Like you said before “If there was hard data backing up” that premise.
I personally believe and I think the evidence backs me up that free markets have done more to lift more people out of poverty than any other system.
The proposals of progressive taxation do not eliminate the free market. We can still have a free market. I don’t recall anyone here suggesting that we eliminate it.
 
The pragmatic side of me says yes, but I’ll be honest the implications of giving a government such sweeping authority still makes me uncomfortable. I have a very deeply ingrained distrust of government. But for the sake of conversation I’ll agree that it would be more beneficial if that were the case.
 
The pragmatic side of me says yes, but I’ll be honest the implications of giving a government such sweeping authority still makes me uncomfortable. I have a very deeply ingrained distrust of government. But for the sake of conversation I’ll agree that it would be more beneficial if that were the case.
As promised, I will answer your question. And I answer it in the affirmative - provided the hard data shows life would be better for those at the bottom if taxes on the rich are lowered.
 
I haven’t met anyone who wants to wax the rich because ‘it’s not fair they have so much’… I think most reasonable people want a fair tax system that benefits the entire of our society
Usually when I’ve heard a fairness argument, it’s about unfair profits rather than unfairness in the distribution itself. Especially at the lower end, the employee receives no benefits from the employer’s success. The creation of a large number of part-time, low-paying jobs is of dubious value to the economy. I think that frustrates many people - in a lot of lower paying jobs I’ve dealt with, the company’s success resulted in no significant increase in my compensation or upward mobility, or really anything other than a surplus of 30-hour a week, $9/hr positions that somehow never translate into higher pay no matter how many are open.
 
tbh I think an economic system that doesn’t encourage growth through promotion and loyalty is broken. Everyone has the right to the pursuit of happiness, and I believe that should include a reasonable expectation of moving forward in life if one works hard enough.
 
I’m asking what is wrong with it in principle, at any level. There is nothing objectively wrong with inequality - this belief always springs from jealousy. You have less than someone else so you want to take from rich people.
 
In small businesses there’s not always a position for someone to advance to.
 
No, but given a sufficient income, people can save, invest, and perhaps eventually have a chance to be their own boss, or to introduce innovations to the world that we might otherwise never get to experience.

What I was getting at was the increase in the percentage of jobs which are very low-paying. This shouldn’t be seen as bad luck by those poor individuals-- it should be seen as a failed investment (years of state-funded schooling) and lost opportunities.

I guess that’s the gist-- I think we should treat citizens as an investment, and do what it takes to maximize the return on that investment.
 
I’m asking what is wrong with it in principle, at any level. There is nothing objectively wrong with inequality - this belief always springs from jealousy. You have less than someone else so you want to take from rich people.
After establishing that “the common good” is a responsibility of government, the Catechism goes on to say in paragraph 1908:
The common good requires the social well-being and development of the group itself. Development is the epitome of all social duties. Certainly, it is the proper function of authority to arbitrate, in the name of the common good, between various particular interests; but it should make accessible to each what is needed to lead a truly human life: food, clothing, health, work, education and culture, suitable information, the right to establish a family, and so on.
Note that this is a governmental responsibility, not just an individual duty to charity.

Beyond that it is useful to read paragraphs 2402 and following about the Universal Destination and Private Ownership of Goods:
2402: In the beginning God entrusted the earth and its resources to the common stewardship of mankind to take care of them, master them by labor, and enjoy their fruits. The goods of creation are destined for the whole human race. However, the earth is divided up among men to assure the security of their lives, endangered by poverty and threatened by violence. The appropriation of property is legitimate for guaranteeing the freedom and dignity of persons and for helping each of them to meet his basic needs and the needs of those in his charge. It should allow for a natural solidarity to develop between men.

2403 The right to private property, acquired or received in a just way, does not do away with the original gift of the earth to the whole of mankind. The universal destination of goods remains primordial, even if the promotion of the common good requires respect for the right to private property and its exercise.

2404 “In his use of things man should regard the external goods he legitimately owns not merely as exclusive to himself but common to others also, in the sense that they can benefit others as well as himself.” The ownership of any property makes its holder a steward of Providence, with the task of making it fruitful and communicating its benefits to others, first of all his family.
There is clearly some limit to how unequally the fruits of God’s gift of creation are distributed. It is a shameful comment on our society if we cannot manage some degree of fairness and justice in sharing the gifts that no one truly deserves by his own merit.

Also the bit about jealously is off base because I am not advocating from a position of one who would be jealous. I have plenty and do not covet blessings beyond what I already have. You might be able to level that charge against some homeless person who is posting here, but you have no way of knowing that anyone here who is posting in favor of more equal distribution would actually be a beneficiary of that effort.
 
Also the bit about jealously is off base because I am not advocating from a position of one who would be jealous.
We have a poster who consistently brings up covetousness. Yet when asked to give an example of someone coveting he has never been able to give even one example. It just shows the weakness of his argument that he cannot argue about the issues on the table but has to make up stuff to distract the argument.
 
Those excerpts from the cathechism were useful to me and are giving me a reason to think harder about them. Good citation
 
You mean you can’t figure out what covetousness means?

It’s two of the ten commandments.
 
There is clearly some limit to how unequally the fruits of God’s gift of creation are distributed.
If it got to that position by the free association of individuals, then placing an arbitrary limit on inequality is only limiting people’s freedoms.

It is a different matter if the wealth distribution occurred through skulduggery.
 
Last edited:
That poster is not me, but wanting an equal distribution of wealth most certainly is about jealousy. True capitalism is the free association of individuals, and so any distribution of wealth is based on an individuals actions and cannot be said to be unfair.
 
40.png
LeafByNiggle:
There is clearly some limit to how unequally the fruits of God’s gift of creation are distributed.
If it got to that position by the free association of individuals, then placing an arbitrary limit on inequality is only limiting people’s freedoms.

It is a different matter if the wealth distribution occurred through skulduggery.
It doesn’t look like you took to heart anything that I quoted from the Catechism, but just focused on this one statement of mine. Please address the whole post where I supported by position by those citations.
That poster is not me, but wanting an equal distribution of wealth most certainly is about jealousy. True capitalism is the free association of individuals, and so any distribution of wealth is based on an individuals actions and cannot be said to be unfair.
It is not jealously. It is the desire for justice. Please consult the Catechism and see if you can justify that statement of yours. Here is what the Catechism says about capitalism and socialism in paragraph 2425:
The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with “communism” or “socialism.” She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of “capitalism,” individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor. Regulating the economy solely by centralized planning perverts the basis of social bonds; regulating it solely by the law of the marketplace fails social justice, for “there are many human needs which cannot be satisfied by the market.” Reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended.
So the Catechism says that the practice of capitalism can be unfair, contrary to your assertion.
 
Last edited:
That poster is not me, but wanting an equal distribution of wealth most certainly is about jealousy.
Who has said that there should be an equal distribution of wealth? Nobody has said there should be an equal distribution of wealth. Might I suggest you stick with what people are actually saying rather than making things up?
 
I guess that’s the gist-- I think we should treat citizens as an investment, and do what it takes to maximize the return on that investment.
That’s a reasonable societal goal, I’m not saying that everyone from the top to the bottom couldn’t see a reason to get behind it, but it isn’t a matter of moral necessity. Neither laws trying to achieve that end nor laws that fail to support that end would be inherently unjust.
 
Last edited:
I found this rather interesting study that shows why the United States is losing ground in economic justice.

https://www.cbpp.org/research/pover...ics-on-historical-trends-in-income-inequality

I do not think we will exactly end up like a feudal state, but we are headed back in that direction, something that is decidedly un-American. Yet who would have thought a rich, New York real estate tycoon could have grabbed the presidency with such a nationalistic base. This country is definitely getting weird. I guess this happens when we start sliding down in academic performance like we are, in other words, getting more stupid.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top